Royal New Zealand Air Force

[ADMk2]

I’m not sure NZ is looking at something as high end as MH-60R. If it is, they are about to get a dose of sticker-shock based on the latest FMS approval price for Norway’s requested 6x MH-60R, with all the trimmings costed at USD $1b…

Norway – Defense Articles and Services Related to the MH-60R Multi-Mission Helicopters | Defense Security Cooperation Agency

www.dsca.mil

Now of course RNZAF might be able to get away with fewer aircraft saving money, but at that price and given the NZ budget has to include UAS capability as well, the announced budget would be struggling to acquire 4x aircraft at those prices.

Would 4x aircraft plus a flight of naval UAS meet RNZAF’s needs?

South Korea (back in 2013, should be noted…) Awarded Leonardo a USD $800m contract to acquire 12x AW159 Wildcat ASW helicopters.

With a fleet sized appropriately this seems like to be a far more affordable solution… I’m an unabashed fan of this aircraft, I’ve long thought it’s land based compatriot would make a fine aircraft for NZ to replace it’s AW109’s and to employ in a battlefield ISR / light strike role… Killing many birds with one stone, so to speak…

I accept the Wildcat probably wouldn’t come with Mk.54 integrated. I suppose a study on integration / the cost of supporting 2 types of torpedoes in-service (as RAN does…) would be necessary, as it would the intended weapons fit, noting Penguin is probably not integrated on it either and in any case can’t be too far from it’s life of type…

 

[Gibbo]

I’m not sure NZ is looking at something as high end as MH-60R. If it is, they are about to get a dose of sticker-shock based on the latest FMS approval price for Norway’s requested 6x MH-60R, with all the trimmings costed at USD $1b…

Norway – Defense Articles and Services Related to the MH-60R Multi-Mission Helicopters | Defense Security Cooperation Agency

www.dsca.mil

Now of course RNZAF might be able to get away with fewer aircraft saving money, but at that price and given the NZ budget has to include UAS capability as well, the announced budget would be struggling to acquire 4x aircraft at those prices.

Would 4x aircraft plus a flight of naval UAS meet RNZAF’s needs?

South Korea (back in 2013, should be noted…) Awarded Leonardo a USD $800m contract to acquire 12x AW159 Wildcat ASW helicopters.

With a fleet sized appropriately this seems like to be a far more affordable solution… I’m an unabashed fan of this aircraft, I’ve long thought it’s land based compatriot would make a fine aircraft for NZ to replace it’s AW109’s and to employ in a battlefield ISR / light strike role… Killing many birds with one stone, so to speak…

I accept the Wildcat probably wouldn’t come with Mk.54 integrated. I suppose a study on integration / the cost of supporting 2 types of torpedoes in-service (as RAN does…) would be necessary, as it would the intended weapons fit, noting Penguin is probably not integrated on it either and in any case can’t be too far from it’s life of type…

Ah, but comparing airframe numbers vs project costs is always a fraught challenge... the key is what whole-of-life costs are factored into those budget numbers which are generally 'headline' numbers for media / public consumption Are we comparing an apple with an apple or an apple with a banana!?!

 

[Gracie1234]

It is worth noting that the budget is greater than 1 Billion. I am not aware it has a set upper limit. From this process, they will know what they can get for various budgets and work out the value and confirm the number of airframes. This will all go into the business case that will have a low, middle and high-end option. Considering the current environment I would say the higher-end option is more likely. For the past generation we have chosen the lower or middle option as the risk was considered low.

 

[ADMk2]

Ah, but comparing airframe numbers vs project costs is always a fraught challenge... the key is what whole-of-life costs are factored into those budget numbers which are generally 'headline' numbers for media / public consumption Are we comparing an apple with an apple or an apple with a banana!?!

it is indeed. Until tenders are submitted and that information released in whatever sanitised form it comes out as, we have no true idea.

If the budget is $1b + contingency for argument’s sake, then obviously different assumptions can be made.

But based on intended roles, this is a reasonable basis for discussion. Similar requirement, likely similar basis of provisioning, cost in this case is ‘x’.

 

[ngatimozart]

Well at least some progress is being made with the release of the RFI. Still it is only an RFI - it's not an actual order. Like the RFI for the SOPV, it may yet go nowhere. I guess the disappointing bit for me is that, for the want of one line in the RFI, they could have also asked for information on a marinised utility/cargo helicopter for the auxiliary vessels. Yet all they have asked for is a medium Naval helicopter for ASW/ASuW missions. Like Ngati, I'm a firm believer that the Navy now needs two types of maritime helicopters. History suggests a fully-specced MH60R will be too expensive to get the full 9 they want - so we will either get not enough, a FFBNW version, or something cheaper (perhaps AW159 Wildcat).

I am not sure about the FFBNW thing. They acquired stock standard C-130J-30 and P-8A platforms with out any Kiwiisation. The problem was that they didn't get enough of either.

.I'm surprised it has taken till now to issue an RFI. At the FADT Select Committee hearing back in December it was mentioned that only 3 of the 8 Seasprites were flyable at that time due to spares availability. In Feb, Kaman announced they were shutting down production of their KMax manned & unmanned helicopters (the new CEO wants to reduce costs and focus on more profitable product streams - which doesn't sound good for the Seasprite). It sounds like the Seasprite is going to struggle to get to 2025 let alone 2028.

I am tempted to lay the blame for the delay at the feet of the previous MINDEF, who appeared to be mostly MIA. I agree that we are most likely at a repeat of the SH-2G(NZ) fiasco, unless something is done quickly.

A Seahawk would need to have a Decklock system fitted (I doubt we would change the systems on the frigates this late in their careers). The Danes I think have done that. Hopefully that wouldn't impact the ASW systems. The Seahawk also has issues with flotation devices (I think they no longer have them due to egress issues). That's why the Danes carry a podded liferaft on one of the pylon stations. Seahawk might well have issues with operating from the OPVs - it may fit the hangar, but what about on the flight deck with rotors extended? The Seasprite was a pretty tight fit there (note the gap in the railing for the Seasprite's tail). Then there is the issue of weight (4 tonnes heavier than the Seasprite) and what that would do for stability on the OPV.

AW159 Wildcat might get away with operation from the OPVs. However, it will need to be integrated with Mk54 torpedoes (as far as I am aware, none of the present users are using Mk 54 - UK has Stingray, South Korea & Philippines are using the Blue Shark torpedo). Plus there is a small worldwide user base (mostly all in the UK), and we would need to really sort out our logistics systems if we picked it. Other than that, the Wildcat is a good naval helicopter - that should be cheaper than a Seahawk. I would look at the South Korean version - with Link 16 & NLOS Spike missiles - rather than the UK version in the first instance. If a dunking sonar is fitted it's going to be very cramped inside. Probably has slightly less range/endurance and underslung load than the current Seasprite. Leonardo is probably desperate for a sale though.

Yes the SK variant would be worth considering. I like the idea of the NLOS Spike because the Aussies are going to be manufacturing the Spike missile under licence - think it's the ER variant. I wouldn't be surprised if they also built the NLOS.

AW101 & CH-148 would seem to be much too large (and costly) to be seriously considered.

Definitely.

NH90 - an outside possibility for a utility/cargo role (hopefully not). I doubt the Aussies will be selling theirs cheaply. Unlikely for a naval role due to cost.

We really want to stay as far away from Airbus Helicopters as we can. After their NH90 fiasco they are just to risky.
One helicopter that hasn't been mentioned yet is the Airbus H160M. Very outside chance IMHO, as it isn't even due to enter French service until 2028.[/quote]

Not quite right I think. MH60S is a marinised version of the Blackhawk, not the Seahawk (notice the tailwheel position).

IIRC the SH-60S can be manufactured on order if required because they wouldn't need to set up a new production line. I believe that it's a variant of the MH-60R and just requires anything that the customer specifies. There's no structural change just a difference in fitout. Remember reading something on this a few years back.

I also think the idea of basing the next gen maritime Helos on the current legacy platforms (in terms of deck, hanger etc) WRT to size would also be rather short sighted. We should ideally be acquiring the best helo going forward not limit them to the current naval assets that are pretty much on the out anyway in the grand scheme of things ie look to suit the replacement ships to the replacement helicopters rather than suit the replacement helicopters to the current ships, which imo are reaching the end of their useful lives anyway. In the case of the OPVs it would be potentially wasteful to base any decision on the Otagos limitations which would in turn serve on the current/new frigates for the next 30-40 years (let's be honest) and in all honesty I would rather see the OPVs go without helo support for a few years if worse comes to worse rather than any option that involves downgrading the fleet to suit them in particular. The OPVs rarely embark sprites as it is anyway so hardly a deal breaker imo.

Most definitely. The RNZN ANZAC FFH helo decision was based on the concept on the Kerosine Parrot Mk-1 (Westland Wasp), and the OPVs just carried it forward. We got lumbered with Seasprites because the RAN were going to use them. We should've gone with the Sea Lynx helo and we would've saved a lot of time, money, and grief.

Thx, also interesting to see the integration of Joint Fires Support, which I understand as the coordination and integration of indirect fire systems to support land efforts in its most basic sense, and perhaps also in the littorals (judging by the mention in the above details). For NZDF commanders it gives them another syncronised weapon system.

But is this also a realisation of sorts that NZDF lacks suitable air combat power, perhaps in the form of specialist sensor equipped attack helicopters ... or even a fast-air ACF?

If so should this be assessed/rectified (as a separate new project)? Granted, having this capability for the Maritime Helicopter Replacement (MHR) is timely, puts us in good stead with our allies during combined operations and could prove indispensable supporting and safeguarding land forces/special forces being deployed from sea to land (being on hand to respond), so it is important to ensure that this capability is integrated into the MHR.

But the Maritime Helicopter replacement is a vital extension or force multiplier for its Frigates when conducting surface and sub-surface ISR or warfare, so also needs to be available for these taskings (eg screening the landing sea forces from enemy underwater intrusions, or patrolling or responding to potential contacts etc) as a high priority.

Is this timely for Defence to be putting new (separate) alternative solutions forward to government? Perhaps as a component of the LPD/LHD project (signaled in DCP19), if helicopter based solutions have some utility?

I have believed for a long time that the Army should have an ARH capability and one that's marinised. Attack helicopters have always been denied because of the RNZAF ACF providing the CAS. As you say the ACF is history and the Army requires that capability. Even if our ACF does a Lazarus my view is that it should be orientated more towards maritime strike leaving CAS to the Army ARH.

 

[ngatimozart]

I’m not sure NZ is looking at something as high end as MH-60R. If it is, they are about to get a dose of sticker-shock based on the latest FMS approval price for Norway’s requested 6x MH-60R, with all the trimmings costed at USD $1b…

Norway – Defense Articles and Services Related to the MH-60R Multi-Mission Helicopters | Defense Security Cooperation Agency

www.dsca.mil

Now of course RNZAF might be able to get away with fewer aircraft saving money, but at that price and given the NZ budget has to include UAS capability as well, the announced budget would be struggling to acquire 4x aircraft at those prices.

Would 4x aircraft plus a flight of naval UAS meet RNZAF’s needs?

South Korea (back in 2013, should be noted…) Awarded Leonardo a USD $800m contract to acquire 12x AW159 Wildcat ASW helicopters.

With a fleet sized appropriately this seems like to be a far more affordable solution… I’m an unabashed fan of this aircraft, I’ve long thought it’s land based compatriot would make a fine aircraft for NZ to replace it’s AW109’s and to employ in a battlefield ISR / light strike role… Killing many birds with one stone, so to speak…

I accept the Wildcat probably wouldn’t come with Mk.54 integrated. I suppose a study on integration / the cost of supporting 2 types of torpedoes in-service (as RAN does…) would be necessary, as it would the intended weapons fit, noting Penguin is probably not integrated on it either and in any case can’t be too far from it’s life of type…

Lot of coin for 6 aircraft. I can just see the Treasury bean counters requiring defibs and smelling salts. 4 naval helos + UAS definitely wouldn't meet the RNZN requirements.

The cost of integration of the Mk-54 would hopefully be less than acquiring a second torpedo capability. It would create problems on ships because they'd have to stock both the M-54 and the 2nd torpedo capability in their magazines. I know that the RAN do that, but is it really thee optimal solution. I am sure that Leonardo would be keen to see the Mk-54 integrated because that would be another string in its bow.

The indicated budget is not necessarily what it will end up being. There are to many variables at the moment at at least one election.

 

[RegR]

I am not sure about the FFBNW thing. They acquired stock standard C-130J-30 and P-8A platforms with out any Kiwiisation. The problem was that they didn't get enough of either.

I'm surprised it has taken till now to issue an RFI. At the FADT Select Committee hearing back in December it was mentioned that only 3 of the 8 Seasprites were flyable at that time due to spares availability. In Feb, Kaman announced they were shutting down production of their KMax manned & unmanned helicopters (the new CEO wants to reduce costs and focus on more profitable product streams - which doesn't sound good for the Seasprite). It sounds like the Seasprite is going to struggle to get to 2025 let alone 2028.

I am tempted to lay the blame for the delay at the feet of the previous MINDEF, who appeared to be mostly MIA. I agree that we are most likely at a repeat of the SH-2G(NZ) fiasco, unless something is done quickly.

Yes the SK variant would be worth considering. I like the idea of the NLOS Spike because the Aussies are going to be manufacturing the Spike missile under licence - think it's the ER variant. I wouldn't be surprised if they also built the NLOS.

Definitely.

We really want to stay as far away from Airbus Helicopters as we can. After their NH90 fiasco they are just to risky.
One helicopter that hasn't been mentioned yet is the Airbus H160M. Very outside chance IMHO, as it isn't even due to enter French service until 2028.

IIRC the SH-60S can be manufactured on order if required because they wouldn't need to set up a new production line. I believe that it's a variant of the MH-60R and just requires anything that the customer specifies. There's no structural change just a difference in fitout. Remember reading something on this a few years back.

Most definitely. The RNZN ANZAC FFH helo decision was based on the concept on the Kerosine Parrot Mk-1 (Westland Wasp), and the OPVs just carried it forward. We got lumbered with Seasprites because the RAN were going to use them. We should've gone with the Sea Lynx helo and we would've saved a lot of time, money, and grief.

I have believed for a long time that the Army should have an ARH capability and one that's marinised. Attack helicopters have always been denied because of the RNZAF ACF providing the CAS. As you say the ACF is history and the Army requires that capability. Even if our ACF does a Lazarus my view is that it should be orientated more towards maritime strike leaving CAS to the Army ARH.

Hey Ngati, any link to those select committee findings re the sprites as I cannot for the life of me seem to find them on the page?

 

[ADMk2]

Lot of coin for 6 aircraft. I can just see the Treasury bean counters requiring defibs and smelling salts. 4 naval helos + UAS definitely wouldn't meet the RNZN requirements.

The cost of integration of the Mk-54 would hopefully be less than acquiring a second torpedo capability. It would create problems on ships because they'd have to stock both the M-54 and the 2nd torpedo capability in their magazines. I know that the RAN do that, but is it really thee optimal solution. I am sure that Leonardo would be keen to see the Mk-54 integrated because that would be another string in its bow.

The indicated budget is not necessarily what it will end up being. There are to many variables at the moment at at least one election.

Yep, ack, but if the budget won’t stretch to a necessarily sized fleet of MH-60R, then the AW159 is likely to come roaring into contention. My point about the torpedoes is that for such a small number of weapons, the cost of integration may be unnecessarily high, particularly if NZ has to foot the entire bill. Leonardo integrated SK’s choice of torpedo and air to surface missile yes, but did they pay for it, or did SK?

Ideally a common fleet of torpedos would be the most efficient way to go, but we all know how horrendously expensive air weapons integration can be. It might not be worth it for an inventory likely comprising less than 20 weapons… It should be noted that when SK did it, they initially envisaged a much larger overall fleet than they seem to have ended up with. NZ of course is not likely to be in that position.

On top of which the AH1 Wildcat and HM1 are the same aircraft apart from the naval sensors and weapons on the maritime version. They’d complement each other perfectly in a joint land / sea squadron. Both are marinised airframes too… A batch of AH1’s under a helicopter type numbers reduction project would make an excellent A109 Power replacement and add much needed ISR and strike capability for the RNZAF as well as utility operations, if NZ had a mind. That’s not really an affordable option in MH-60R’s case… Those A109’s are nearing 15 years in-service now…

 

[ngatimozart]

Hey Ngati, any link to those select committee findings re the sprites as I cannot for the life of me seem to find them on the page?

Ask @chis73 because I was quoting his post.

Yep, ack, but if the budget won’t stretch to a necessarily sized fleet of MH-60R, then the AW159 is likely to come roaring into contention. My point about the torpedoes is that for such a small number of weapons, the cost of integration may be unnecessarily high, particularly if NZ has to foot the entire bill. Leonardo integrated SK’s choice of torpedo and air to surface missile yes, but did they pay for it, or did SK?

Ideally a common fleet of torpedos would be the most efficient way to go, but we all know how horrendously expensive air weapons integration can be. It might not be worth it for an inventory likely comprising less than 20 weapons… It should be noted that when SK did it, they initially envisaged a much larger overall fleet than they seem to have ended up with. NZ of course is not likely to be in that position.

I am concerned about compatibility with RAN & USN weapons. It's easier for us to obtain the Mk-54 in a hurry if we have to, rather than trying to get torpedoes from UK to here, then to the aircraft at sea.

On top of which the AH1 Wildcat and HM1 are the same aircraft apart from the naval sensors and weapons on the maritime version. They’d complement each other perfectly in a joint land / sea squadron. Both are marinised airframes too… A batch of AH1’s under a helicopter type numbers reduction project would make an excellent A109 Power replacement and add much needed ISR and strike capability for the RNZAF as well as utility operations, if NZ had a mind. That’s not really an affordable option in MH-60R’s case… Those A109’s are nearing 15 years in-service now…

The AH1 Wildcat doesn't appear to have a great range of armaments. It appears to have the LMM, which is a good missile, and maybe the Spike NLOS. My view is unless they can develop a decent gunpack for it, we would be wasting our time and money. Now if it came with the Aden Gun Pack, it would be interesting However I think that the recoil would cause the air frame to RUD (Rapid Unexpected Disassembly).

 

[chis73]

Ask @chis73 because I was quoting his post.

Here you go RegR:

Transcript (Link) of the FADT Select Committee 2021/22 Annual Review hearing on NZDF & MoD back on 12 December 2022. See pages 12-13. You can watch the hearing here (link).

 

[RegR]

Here you go RegR:

Transcript (Link) of the FADT Select Committee 2021/22 Annual Review hearing on NZDF & MoD back on 12 December 2022. See pages 12-13. You can watch the hearing here (link).

Cheers, thanks for that.

 

[ADMk2]

Ask @chis73 because I was quoting his post.

I am concerned about compatibility with RAN & USN weapons. It's easier for us to obtain the Mk-54 in a hurry if we have to, rather than trying to get torpedoes from UK to here, then to the aircraft at sea.

The AH1 Wildcat doesn't appear to have a great range of armaments. It appears to have the LMM, which is a good missile, and maybe the Spike NLOS. My view is unless they can develop a decent gunpack for it, we would be wasting our time and money. Now if it came with the Aden Gun Pack, it would be interesting However I think that the recoil would cause the air frame to RUD (Rapid Unexpected Disassembly).

Below is a better airborne gunnery system than anything the NZDF presently maintains… LMM, Spike NLOS and the medium ranged Sea Venom ASM along with Stingray torpedoes at the least are all integrated with it and British Army AH1’s have just been fitted with Link 16 as well as their full sensor ball and laser targetting capability, to allow them to designate for and hand off for Apache, artillery and SOW strikes as required.

That weapon selection M3M aside is for the maritime version, but a customised variant (* as RAN has done with it’s latest MH-60R order and as SK did with it’s Wildcat purchase) hardly seems beyond the realms of possibility. NZ’s choice of radio systems potentially BMS and so on will be fitted to a modified version of whichever helicopter you end up with, so customisation ability will have to be present…

Even were MH-60R to be chosen, I am quite certain NZ would be looking for a different weapon than AGM-114 Hellfire to arm it, given the capability they will be losing when AGM-119 Penguin is retired, so RNZAF is probably quite aware that a weapons integration / a non-US weapon may be required to meet their capability needs, whichever helicopter is ordered? On top of which, RNZAF’s Mk2 Mod 7 Penguin ASM’s were acquired directly from Kongsberg in Norway, though it had been deployed previously by the USN, it wasn’t in-service by the time RNZAF acquired it, so non-US weapons are clearly not entirely a ‘no go’? Spike NLOS at least is being acquired by the US Army in any case…

on top of which, Leonardo is pressing ahead with ‘ALE’ capability - air launched effects, having conducted live firing of air-launched UAS systems from AW159, to deliver a range of effects and sensors at range from the host platform. LMM sized payloads could mean potential launch of up to 20x UAS per mission from a single aircraft… Would be a leading edge capability that even RAN couldn’t boast, for a change...

 

[Teal]

I also think the idea of basing the next gen maritime Helos on the current legacy platforms (in terms of deck, hanger etc) WRT to size would also be rather short sighted. We should ideally be acquiring the best helo going forward not limit them to the current naval assets that are pretty much on the out anyway in the grand scheme of things ie look to suit the replacement ships to the replacement helicopters rather than suit the replacement helicopters to the current ships, which imo are reaching the end of their useful lives anyway. In the case of the OPVs it would be potentially wasteful to base any decision on the Otagos limitations which would in turn serve on the current/new frigates for the next 30-40 years (let's be honest) and in all honesty I would rather see the OPVs go without helo support for a few years if worse comes to worse rather than any option that involves downgrading the fleet to suit them in particular. The OPVs rarely embark sprites as it is anyway so hardly a deal breaker imo.

I would not worry about the OPVs with an attached Helo det . I would be more worried if we ever see the OPVs at sea at all , i think unless they are moved and have things flashed up, turning and burning they may just rot away alongside . The CnC process is not looking like much for the old girls

 

[recce.k1]

Just a quick diversion from the Maritime Helicopter Replacement Project discussions and the excellent assessment of the AW159's capabilities (although will quickly throw into the mix Kongsberg has a development program underway to integrate the NSM with MH-60R, which will be of benefit to many operators, and perhaps something to consider if there is a defence review decision to also equip the RNZN ANZAC's with NSM in terms of commonality?) ..... the RNZAF's 3rd Poseidon is currently undergoing test flights in the USA. Also this crowd funded site gives details of Airbus/Boeing/ATR/EMB aircraft factory test & delivery flight activity (etc) if anyone is interested (here's NZ4803).

 

[ngatimozart]

Just a quick diversion from the Maritime Helicopter Replacement Project discussions and the excellent assessment of the AW159's capabilities (although will quickly throw into the mix Kongsberg has a development program underway to integrate the NSM with MH-60R, which will be of benefit to many operators, and perhaps something to consider if there is a defence review decision to also equip the RNZN ANZAC's with NSM in terms of commonality?) ..... the RNZAF's 3rd Poseidon is currently undergoing test flights in the USA. Also this crowd funded site gives details of Airbus/Boeing/ATR/EMB aircraft factory test & delivery flight activity (etc) if anyone is interested (here's NZ4803).

The 4th and final P-8A, NZ4804, has had its first flight.

Boeing 737-8FV, Royal New Zealand Air Force, N806DS, NZ4804 (MSN 67020/9601) | BOE - Aviation Flights Group

Boeing 737-8FV, Royal New Zealand Air Force, N806DS, NZ4804 (MSN 67020/9601) | Global Aviation Data Analytics of Test, Ferry & Delivery Flights tracking Airbus, Boeing, Embraer, ATR and more.

aviation.flights

 

[Nighthawk.NZ]

Welp... the new Herc's a slowly taken shape... (well that is what the title says lol)

My question though with all the extra bits and bobs was it the full package or were lots other bits and bobs and flashing lights with switches and dials the NZG said yeah nah... From memory it was a comprehensive list of extras... including a flight simulator... (Yeah I am not a aircraft person :-/)

New C-130-Js taking shape | Ministry of Defence website

www.defence.govt.nz

 

[recce.k1]

Welp... the new Herc's a slowly taken shape... (well that is what the title says lol)

My question though with all the extra bits and bobs was it the full package or were lots other bits and bobs and flashing lights with switches and dials the NZG said yeah nah... From memory it was a comprehensive list of extras... including a flight simulator... (Yeah I am not a aircraft person :-/)

New C-130-Js taking shape | Ministry of Defence website

www.defence.govt.nz

Yes it includes a full mission flight simulator and related equipment used for the funding case is covered on the DCSA site (although can't be 100% sure whether that was the final configuration or whether anything new was added when the order was placed one year later unless the MoD confirm etc).

New Zealand – C-130J Aircraft | Defense Security Cooperation Agency

www.dsca.mil

 

[ngatimozart]

Yes it includes a full mission flight simulator and related equipment used for the funding case is covered on the DCSA site (although can't be 100% sure whether that was the final configuration or whether anything new was added when the order was placed one year later unless the MoD confirm etc).

New Zealand – C-130J Aircraft | Defense Security Cooperation Agency

www.dsca.mil

FWIU they are stock standard aircraft with no kiwisation. They will be more capable than the USAF or RAAF aircraft.

 

[ngatimozart]

The 3rd RNZAF P-8A, NZ4803, has departed Seattle for NZ.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=152035531027931

 

[Nighthawk.NZ]

No.3 at Ohakea... just one more to go... (in reality it should be 3 more to go but it is what it is...)

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1659017476368404482