Royal New Zealand Air Force
- Thread starter Lucasnz
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recce.k1
Well-Known Member
Thanks for advising. Seems an unusually low number (assuming it is correct), so perhaps it is an initial purchase to familarise personnel with the new capability (as part of the initial P-8 acquisition budget allocation as the Naval News article alludes to)? Presumably practice torpedoes will be needed too (unless Spiri were counting them). Also are they the array kit mod'ed torps that was announced back in 2021 or is that an additional capability?Defence Studies site advises 10 Mk54's were purchased. See link below and click on out of focus window to read.
DEFENSE STUDIES
FOCUS ON DEFENSE CAPABILITY DEVELOPMENT IN SOUTHEAST ASIA AND OCEANIAdefense-studies.blogspot.com
So many questions (that won't be answered by Defence) but expect new warstocks to follow at a later date as may get some urgency following on from the defence review as forthcoming govt's won't be able to deflect the challenges to the region and NZ's international expectations and obligations.
By comparison the Spiri database claims 100x Mk 46 torps were acquired during the Cold War (in the 1970's), which were refurbished over time.
Interestingly the numbers given for the Frigate SAM's of 25x AIM-7P Sparrows and 60x CAMM suggest a full load for each vessel plus a one replacement full load. Presumably this is a "peace time" configuration (so curious what the defence review recommendations will be), which makes the acquisition numbers of 10x Mk 54 (enough for only 1-2x Poseidon's fully fitted with) seem rather unusual judging by other Defence planning outcomes. Hence why I'm presuming more will follow in due course (and likely not that we will be told much anyway by Defence).
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FormerDirtDart
Well-Known Member
A little banter on twitter
It's not a complete hellscape
Time for you to modify your attitude is being noticed and complained about by non Moderators.
The RNZN operates the Mk-46 (Mod 5 IIRC) and they will be replaced at some stage because they will be near their use by dates. A well known NZ aviation forum reported at least 4 - 5 years ago that the RNZAF had problems keeping their Mk-46 (Mod 5 IIRC) torpedoes operational because they had trouble finding spares etc. The torpedoes were then near the end of their serviceable life.
I'd recommend the APDR-March-April-2023 edition... has a quite detailed article about the us RNZAF's use of helicopter simulators, and rather interestingly an article that argues the ADF's issues with Taipan & Tiger aren't really the aircraft itself... and explains further, including some generic comparisons to the NZDF use of NH-90.
recce.k1
Well-Known Member
Key Aero have a write up on the Beechcraft King Air 350i aircraft and give some detail on the two aircraft fitted with the sensor pod (features an AESA radar etc). Although the KA350i was procured for training purposes (and light utility/VIP) the two modified "pod" aircraft are now being used for maritime ISR missions (particularly to cover the recent cyclone damage to the North Island east coast region and to help out until the P-8A's are fully operational).
Looking ahead though and to quote the article "The RNZAF says that King Air 350i utilisation will be reviewed to determine if the type could then fulfil a complementary ISR role, such as inshore patrol". If so could that see additional airframes acquired to reliably cover ISR and/or light utility/VIP duties?
www.key.aero
Looking ahead though and to quote the article "The RNZAF says that King Air 350i utilisation will be reviewed to determine if the type could then fulfil a complementary ISR role, such as inshore patrol". If so could that see additional airframes acquired to reliably cover ISR and/or light utility/VIP duties?
RNZAF using King Air 350i fleet to bridge ISR capability
Two of the Royal New Zealand Air Force’s four sensor pod-equipped King Air 350i aircraft were signed off in February to perform operational ISR missions in addition to their existing crew training
Paywalled. The current RNZAF KA350i are leased and I think the lease expires in 3 years. The KA350i would be ideal for the role and NZ acquiring (not leasing) it would be well worth the investment. We are already using the type so integration into service would be relatively easy and quick.Key Aero have a write up on the Beechcraft King Air 350i aircraft and give some detail on the two aircraft fitted with the sensor pod (features an AESA radar etc). Although the KA350i was procured for training purposes (and light utility/VIP) the two modified "pod" aircraft are now being used for maritime ISR missions (particularly to cover the recent cyclone damage to the North Island east coast region and to help out until the P-8A's are fully operational).
Looking ahead though and to quote the article "The RNZAF says that King Air 350i utilisation will be reviewed to determine if the type could then fulfil a complementary ISR role, such as inshore patrol". If so could that see additional airframes acquired to reliably cover ISR and/or light utility/VIP duties?
RNZAF using King Air 350i fleet to bridge ISR capability
Two of the Royal New Zealand Air Force’s four sensor pod-equipped King Air 350i aircraft were signed off in February to perform operational ISR missions in addition to their existing crew training
Yes the KA350 is indeed capable of inshore MPA and has enough legs to go a fair distance offshore depending on weather & time required on station... previously 42Sqn has deployed a King Air up into one of the Island Groups (I think for recon post cyclone) ...may have been one of the previous (KA)B200 fleet so no ISR systems onboard at the time.
The scenario outlined (ie: "The RNZAF says that King Air 350i utilisation will be reviewed to determine if the type could then fulfil a complementary ISR role, such as inshore patrol") is basically the most straight forward & likely the least expensive option to meet the EMAC project deliverable. No doubt the EMAC project will have to go thru the 'Defence Review' wringer but I suspect it should be one of the most likely to survive. Assuming it does I'd like to see the RNZAF receive the ER model (to be owned)... if new it would be the (KA)B360-ER. It would require 2-3 additional airframes to what they have now and maybe tack them onto 5sqn, as 42Sqn will still have the role of training EWO in FLIR use before they head to 3 (SH-2G); 5 (P8A & poss KA360?) & soon 40 (C130J-30).
The opening line of the Key Aero article is not quite corrrect in saying: "Two of the Royal New Zealand Air Force’s (RNZAF’s) four sensor pod-equipped Beechcraft King Air 350i aircraft..." in that whilst 42 Sqn does indeed have 4 x KA350i - only 2 are sensor pod-equipped.Key Aero have a write up on the Beechcraft King Air 350i aircraft and give some detail on the two aircraft fitted with the sensor pod (features an AESA radar etc). Although the KA350i was procured for training purposes (and light utility/VIP) the two modified "pod" aircraft are now being used for maritime ISR missions (particularly to cover the recent cyclone damage to the North Island east coast region and to help out until the P-8A's are fully operational).
Looking ahead though and to quote the article "The RNZAF says that King Air 350i utilisation will be reviewed to determine if the type could then fulfil a complementary ISR role, such as inshore patrol". If so could that see additional airframes acquired to reliably cover ISR and/or light utility/VIP duties?
RNZAF using King Air 350i fleet to bridge ISR capability
Two of the Royal New Zealand Air Force’s four sensor pod-equipped King Air 350i aircraft were signed off in February to perform operational ISR missions in addition to their existing crew training
Also what I picked up from an article about Cyclone Gabrielle in the March 2023 RNZAF news magazine was that they were planning to start some recon tasks but hadn't really got started on them yet... I suspect training demands are keeping the instructors & aircraft more than busy. Hence I'd like to see 5Sqn get some KA ER models fitted out similarly as it would be core tasking for them...42Sqn's core taskings are training.
recce.k1
Well-Known Member
Hey guys was meant to get back to you both sooner but time was against me. Ok noticed the link above doesn't work for me either now but after trial and error the article appears to open if you do a google search eg rnzaf 350.
But just in case the google search doesn't work for anyone else (PM me if not) here are some key points.
Gibbo you are correct only two aircraft are sensor pod equipped (NZ2351 and NZ2352 and I think that info was posted here in the past), perhaps something got lost in translation by the article sub-editors or something.
The sensor pods are fitted with a Teledyne FLIR Star SAFIRE 380-HD electro-optical (EO) camera and a Leonardo Osprey active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar. The article doesn't mention what version although Leonardo produce a Osprey 30 and Osprey 50 AESA, so possibly one of those and also rather than their MM multi-mode surveillance radar/second generation AESA?
There are two mission stations for the FLIR and AESA radar systems, which run CarteNav AIMS-ISR software. However consoles are transferable to the other two unmodified aircraft for AWO simulation training.
The rest of the article talks about the training requirements (eg mentions AWO training for the P-8's).
But it also talks about conducting maritime ISR missions for whole or all-of-government departments (eg MPI, DoC, Customs etc) but the article could be a bit clearer, it also talks about the B350's (and C-130H's) filing in for the P-3's that were retired early and until the P-8's reach IOC, so the article appears to be suggesting these are two different taskings? Just unclear what's different about govt agency support v P-3 substitute/interim taskings as of course the B350 isn't configured for the full spectrum of (warfare or air-sea rescue) taskings the P-3 (or P-8's) are capable of hence would only be doing ex-P-3 govt agency support .. which is the same thing? I guess the answer is the latter is temporary and may require greater resource efforts (and emergency call-outs) and hence disruptions to training or utility schedules whereas the former, govt agency support, is now permanent and usually pre-planned to a schedule etc?
The article does however mention the aircraft were cleared to conduct (overland) ISR missions to assist with Cyclone Gabrielle relief, which required a range of defence and air force units to work quickly to achieve this.
So there we have it, 42 Squadron is indeed multi-role, fulfilling pilot (multi engine) and air warfare officer training, light utility and VIP, and now maritime ISR (with continued overland ISR taskings?).
Suggest (well not that I have any say but) if additional B350's are acquired (and additional personnel) following the defence review that they may as well remain with 42 Sqn to allow the squadron to have better critical mass in order to better support and sustain both operations and training programmes?
Rather than tack them onto 5 (P-8) Squadron? Suggesting that as their primary role is long range ISR and warfare, and having another type which only fulfills inshore maritime ISR may be counter-productive to the squadron's primary purpose and being?
If so, another option could be to simply re-form another squadron (like 1 Sqn again (ex-Andovers, which undertook both transport and maritime surveillance taskings) or whatever eg 7 or 8 Sqn if we were to follow WW2 conventions for general reconnaissance patrol squadrons) and base them say at Whenuapai which gives the added advantages of both building up the base mass again plus having aircraft that can react quicker to contingencies in NZ's northern approaches)?
But if so, rather than B350's what about some ex-Air NZ Q300's or ATR-72's (or fit for purpose CN-295's with a rear ramp to drop a life-raft out off ... and which can also be armed if required to be) etc? They would provide longer range, room for additional mission stations, cargo, pax etc, as well as better crew comforts eg additional space to work and rest, galley, toilet etc. Yes I know we used to discuss this idea years ago ...
Perhaps though a larger aircraft could also see some of the items that were bought (in recent times) for the P-3K2 Orions be re-fitted on them (like the Elta EL/-2022 Surveillance Radar for example as well as other mission systems for ISR and ASuW)?
Edit: sorry brain fade when typing this late last night, of course taking over aspects of the P-3 role (along with the C-130 for longer range tasks) in the interim is to provide coverage until the P-8's are released to do so (the Key Aero article had it right). So an extra, operational role that the squadron is undertaking and of which the article notes the air force is reviewing this for future planning purposes. Exciting times for the squadron!
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Definite advantages in a larger aircraft with longer range but I guess the point from the article is KA350 are a very simple & quick solution being effectively an exisitng type...albeit I'd prefer 'ER' models to be added. EMAC project scope is very clearly an unarmed capability that will free-up the P8 to focus on core military tasks, arming EMAC is moving that project to another stratosphere of cost & complication that is not required for the low-level civvy tasks expected of EMAC.
I too like the idea of a larger more capable aircraft ala C-295 and more so for the fact it would afford us more capabilities as opposed to essentially 1. If we say had the plug in pod versions then they could cover off the minor tasks of 40 sqn in the same vein it would release the P8s of 5 sqn to conduct and concentrate on their operational tasks as well as be more regional rather than just predominately local, again options.
I would suggest say 4-6 in a standalone sqn manned by fully military pers for deployments sake (rather than 42s current arrangement) and dont feel they need to be armed (thats what the P8s are for) and would be more akin to Canadas Kingfisher variant as primarily SAR with the bonus of medium transport, although FFBNW is always an option, and something NZ is only to familiar with/accepting of. Yes more B350s would be the simple and easiest answer but then is that always the best and forward thinking soloution?
In saying that I feel with our current issues govt could well be forced to simply tack on to the B350s, and that could just involve simply adding the role onto the existing fleets already long list of tasks rather than even adding extra frame(s). Guess it all comes down to perceived importance as to how much priority this project will receive overall in the scheme of things.
The Poseidon Transition Unit at Ohakea has officially converted to 5 Sqn RNZAF. This occurred on Wednesday with a formal ceremony at Ohakea.
www.facebook.com
Royal New Zealand Air Force
An historic moment The Poseidon Transition Unit officially transformed into No. 5 Squadron at Base Ohakea today where outgoing Commanding Officer Wing Commander Glen Donaldson handed over the reins...
www.facebook.com
Radio NZ News item on the NH90. The article has links to the different sources for its info. It gives the RNZAF availability for the type, which sits around 75%.
www.rnz.co.nz
NZ sticks with troubled NH90 helicopters as Australia and Norway opt for alternatives
New Zealand faces higher hurdles using its military helicopters alongside its defence partners now that Australia is switching choppers.
www.rnz.co.nz
So NZ currently has 5 battlefield lift helicopters.Radio NZ News item on the NH90. The article has links to the different sources for its info. It gives the RNZAF availability for the type, which sits around 75%.
NZ sticks with troubled NH90 helicopters as Australia and Norway opt for alternatives
New Zealand faces higher hurdles using its military helicopters alongside its defence partners now that Australia is switching choppers.
Another, more relevantRadio NZ News item on the NH90. The article has links to the different sources for its info. It gives the RNZAF availability for the type, which sits around 75%.
NZ sticks with troubled NH90 helicopters as Australia and Norway opt for alternatives
New Zealand faces higher hurdles using its military helicopters alongside its defence partners now that Australia is switching choppers.
Another, more relevant fleet to follow imo, is also the Spanish air force as being one of the newest to transition so no doubt having all the latest upgrades and having the benefit of operation, lessons learned and experience from their army counterparts, the OEM (literally next door) as well as the other users worldwide (Good and bad) should arguably be at the top of their game in the peak of its performance (so far). So far they seem to be happy so I assume they applied all that gathered knowledge and hit the ground running, avoiding known obstacles and using best practice.Radio NZ News item on the NH90. The article has links to the different sources for its info. It gives the RNZAF availability for the type, which sits around 75%.
NZ sticks with troubled NH90 helicopters as Australia and Norway opt for alternatives
New Zealand faces higher hurdles using its military helicopters alongside its defence partners now that Australia is switching choppers.
6, as per the article, which is to be expected, did you think we would have 8? I don't know of any fleet, anywhere, that would routinely have a 100% availability rate tbh.
No, I knew they would not have 8.
I was thinking, 4.
The 9th frame is to cannibalise.
8 airframes, @ 75% absolute best case scenario is 6 working. Reality is 5. 6 would be surge.
Is it really enough to support a brigade?
Luckily for NZ we're obviously pretty good a best case scenarios then it would seem?...
Brigade? Reality is they only need to support a battalion, if that, in fact pretty sure the idea has always been based @ the ability to move a coy gp as the baseline, same with the 757 capacity and sealift capability.