Royal New Zealand Air Force

ngatimozart

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Lockheed Martin targets C-130J-30 wing fuel increase

AFA 2018: Lockheed Martin targets C-130J-30 wing fuel increase | Jane's 360

Would this tip the favour into C130-30 from a Kiwi perspective?
Still would not give enough fuel to return to NZ from Antarctica tho
If the C-130J / J-30 is seen as a tactical option it is not a problem and as a tactical option, in a NZ context the J model is ample. When it is placed in a strategic construct, yes it is. The second point is when dealing with long range the the more fuel you add to an aircraft the corresponding weight in payload has to be reduced.
 

Novascotiaboy

Active Member
More than a month has passed since the last post referencing the RNZAF. Surely there must be something notable worth discussing related to Air Force operations or aircraft?

With the Manawanui set to arrive in May for its next round of upgrades before acceptance into the RNZN there must be some movement on the RPAS program?

Skeldar has racked up wins with the German and Canadian Navies recently.

Has this RPAS been trialed by NZDF?
 

ngatimozart

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More than a month has passed since the last post referencing the RNZAF. Surely there must be something notable worth discussing related to Air Force operations or aircraft?

With the Manawanui set to arrive in May for its next round of upgrades before acceptance into the RNZN there must be some movement on the RPAS program?

Skeldar has racked up wins with the German and Canadian Navies recently.

Has this RPAS been trialed by NZDF?
It's the summer here and the pollies have just returned from their Xmas break (last week). Most govt departments, including NZDF, run on reduced manning from the Friday before Xmas until the Monday of the second week of January. After that it slowly returns to business as usual and we already know that on the RNZAF front that the DCP will not be released until March, which means the the C-130 replacement will not be announced until then.

Regarding RPAS for RNZAF and / or RNZN, as far as I am aware, no types of any kind have been publicly trialled or official interest (read MoD & pollie) shown in.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
I think they will get another MLU before we hear more on what’s going on with C130, it’s to the point I just want a decision any decision will do:mad::mad:
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
....we already know that on the RNZAF front that the DCP will not be released until March, which means the the C-130 replacement will not be announced until then.

Regarding RPAS for RNZAF and / or RNZN, as far as I am aware, no types of any kind have been publicly trialled or official interest (read MoD & pollie) shown in.
I know you grasp it Ngati but for others I would suggest we don't get too excited about the C-130 replacement in the lead-up to the DCP - it is just a policy document that will simply outline the 'parameters' for the FAMC project & therefore the C-130 replacement. ie: it'll outline the policy objectives to be met by the FAMC & will show what broad platform types, at a pinch maybe also numbers thereof, they think will meet these objectives. l'm not expecting it will contain an announcement on placement of any orders. I guess the 2 could coincide but technically the DCP is just a policy statement which will provide the framework for a purchase to then be leveraged off.

Re: RPAS for RNZAF and / or RNZN, Army has played with wee ones for a few years & Navy has briefly looked at ScanEagle. I've said it before & I know there's no one answer but why on earth is the NZDF seemingly moving so slowly into what is now a universally accepted & proven capability? I'm talking small & medium rather than the big ticket ones so cost isn't the obvious answer IMHO. Makes one wonder at times if the problem may not just be with Pollies & MoD but is there issues with 'old heads' in the services not yet quite grasping the technology? Don't bite my head off, I just want to pose the the question!
 

Novascotiaboy

Active Member
Given the statement of requirements that were issued when the LOSV was being priced there must be a willingness as there was to be the ability to support two RPAS. The new vessel doesnt differ much from the suggestions made by numerous commentators other than its not a purpose built vessel and the armament. One would assume that plans were well established for the RPAS integration on at least this vessel but the cabability to operate an RPAS the size of the Schiebel or the Skeldar from the OPVs would increase their ISR capability multiple times at far less cost than the embarked Sprite.

Even the Scan Eagle type flying from an IPV would enhance operations when those vessels are operating in support of the islands as has been done the past few seasons. Not sure the IPVs have the room to operate a rotary RPAS along with all its components the size of a S100 camcopter.

For the cost, the return must be far greater in situational awareness. Maybe details of this will be addressed in the DCP as well.
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
Given the statement of requirements that were issued when the LOSV was being priced there must be a willingness as there was to be the ability to support two RPAS. The new vessel doesnt differ much from the suggestions made by numerous commentators other than its not a purpose built vessel and the armament. One would assume that plans were well established for the RPAS integration on at least this vessel but the cabability to operate an RPAS the size of the Schiebel or the Skeldar from the OPVs would increase their ISR capability multiple times at far less cost than the embarked Sprite.

Even the Scan Eagle type flying from an IPV would enhance operations when those vessels are operating in support of the islands as has been done the past few seasons. Not sure the IPVs have the room to operate a rotary RPAS along with all its components the size of a S100 camcopter.

For the cost, the return must be far greater in situational awareness. Maybe details of this will be addressed in the DCP as well.
Yes wondering also what Navy will do, feel they might be the one to lead the move to acquisition of a more capable RPA. Given such capability is completely platform agnostic (so long as said platform has the necessary space to facilitate launch & capture of the RPA in whatever form required) then there's no need for Manawanui alone to be the catalyst for such an acquisition. Navy have been waxing lyrical about Manawanui's capabilities but those releases never mentioned RPA or conversion work to provide a RPA hangar so makes me think the requirement has been shelved.

You're spot on with the comment about for the cost, the return must be far greater in situational awareness... it simply has to be surely!

If the DCP doesn't signal a greater commitment to move into RPAS I'll be gobsmacked!
 

ngatimozart

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A well done from the media for the RNZAF on the NH-90 front RNZAF can smile about the way it takes care of its choppers whilst also commenting on the Australian MRH-90 experience. Our cuzzies from across the ditch have themselves to blame for many, but not all, of the problems they encountered with the MRH-90, because their approach was similar to the SH-2G(A) Seasprite acquisition that they undertook - rip, $hit and bust comes to mind. Don't get me wrong NZ has some howlers of acquisition stuff ups to, but we haven't let our ambition (standfast cheapness / stinginess) out weigh what is achievable.

Whereas the NZMOD and RNZAF bought direct from NHI in France and embedded a project management and engineering team within the French plant building a good relationship with the Prime and understanding of the aircraft. Secondly good planning by the MOD and RNZAF has mitigated problems that have occurred because of the Primes poor after sales support. So whilst a senior ADF claims that they are the "world leader in the platform", it may be in the number of hours flown, but not in achieving results quickly or efficiently or, more importantly, not who other operators are turning to first for knowledge on how to get more out of the NH-90.

Well done the RNZAF.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
A well done from the media for the RNZAF on the NH-90 front RNZAF can smile about the way it takes care of its choppers whilst also commenting on the Australian MRH-90 experience. Our cuzzies from across the ditch have themselves to blame for many, but not all, of the problems they encountered with the MRH-90, because their approach was similar to the SH-2G(A) Seasprite acquisition that they undertook - rip, $hit and bust comes to mind. Don't get me wrong NZ has some howlers of acquisition stuff ups to, but we haven't let our ambition (standfast cheapness / stinginess) out weigh what is achievable.

Whereas the NZMOD and RNZAF bought direct from NHI in France and embedded a project management and engineering team within the French plant building a good relationship with the Prime and understanding of the aircraft. Secondly good planning by the MOD and RNZAF has mitigated problems that have occurred because of the Primes poor after sales support. So whilst a senior ADF claims that they are the "world leader in the platform", it may be in the number of hours flown, but not in achieving results quickly or efficiently or, more importantly, not who other operators are turning to first for knowledge on how to get more out of the NH-90.

Well done the RNZAF.
Interesting, what's your comparison between Taipan and the Seasprite?

Also the first 4 aircraft were sourced from the Euro production line whilst setting up the assembly line in Brisbane, Australia has a history of local assembled aircraft, while it cost more for local assembly, are you saying that's were the fault lies or is it the configuration chosen by the ADF?

From what I can ascertain the Australia version is similar the German Army version. The only major differences from open source material appears to radio systems which are specific to Australia, and gun mounts fittings at both doors.

Well I do have to admit that buy of the extra airframes to be used as a source of spares was a good idea for the initial buy, but are you saying because the ADF didn't do it that way the ADF didn't do its due diligence in sourcing enough spares initially?

We all know what affect the supply situation had on aircraft availability plus and redesigns for added strength for the cabin floors/ramp,cargo hooks, and door gunner positions, I alsodon't think there were any structural difference between the production line in Europe and the assembly of knock down kits in Australia.
 

ngatimozart

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Interesting, what's your comparison between Taipan and the Seasprite?

Also the first 4 aircraft were sourced from the Euro production line whilst setting up the assembly line in Brisbane, Australia has a history of local assembled aircraft, while it cost more for local assembly, are you saying that's were the fault lies or is it the configuration chosen by the ADF?

From what I can ascertain the Australia version is similar the German Army version. The only major differences from open source material appears to radio systems which are specific to Australia, and gun mounts fittings at both doors.

Well I do have to admit that buy of the extra airframes to be used as a source of spares was a good idea for the initial buy, but are you saying because the ADF didn't do it that way the ADF didn't do its due diligence in sourcing enough spares initially?

We all know what affect the supply situation had on aircraft availability plus and redesigns for added strength for the cabin floors/ramp,cargo hooks, and door gunner positions, I alsodon't think there were any structural difference between the production line in Europe and the assembly of knock down kits in Australia.
I don't think that Australia did due diligence on it's MRH, Tiger, MU90 and Seasprite acquisitions and I wonder how well structure their business cases for each project was. That's the impression I get anyway. With the Seasprite it wasn't the actual aircraft itself, but the upgrades in technology that the RAN wanted and stuck to when it was apparent that it wasn't going to work. Pig headiness maybe but bloody expensive for nothing. I think with both the MRH and Tiger the ADF should've had project teams and engineering teams embedded with both the manufacturers in Europe right from the start and also order extra airframes as spares. We basically got 1 - 2 of our NH90s for nothing because NHI had to pay for the freight out by Antonov 124 due to the delays, and that cost NHI something like $20 million per flight apparently.

Having said all that, our procurement processes then weren't exactly stunning either, but since then we've learned quite a bit and now they've become quite professional, but there's always room for improvement. One of the things that they do well now is due diligence and the procurement system is a partnership between MOD and NZDF, with MOD co-opting NZDF subject matter experts as and when needed, as well as hiring appropriately qualified civilian experts for individual projects.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
I don't think that Australia did due diligence on it's MRH, Tiger, MU90 and Seasprite acquisitions and I wonder how well structure their business cases for each project was. That's the impression I get anyway.
I agree, the ANOA report bears this out maturity of the aircraft had not been properly assessed, I had taken the remark between Seasprite and Taipan to mean that the ADF changed the existing platform fundamentally from the design which it had not


With the Seasprite it wasn't the actual aircraft itself, but the upgrades in technology that the RAN wanted and stuck to when it was apparent that it wasn't going to work. Pig headiness maybe but bloody expensive for nothing.
Overly ambitious was certainty the hallmark of the project, once Malaysia pulled out of the OCV project it should have been the end of the project, sunk cost always seem to win at the time hindsight is a wonderful thing.

It seems that the FAA Association agrees with that as well,

" Even though the Seasprite was an all-new and different aircraft type with all the risk and cost that entailed, on paper it remained much cheaper than the Sikorsky option. Defence thought the Kaman contract represented good value for money and, with sunken costs already committed, was not inclined to cancel it. In retrospect, it was a huge mistake."
Snippets of History: The Kaman SH2G(A) Super Seasprite | Fleet Air Arm Association of Australia

I think with both the MRH and Tiger the ADF should've had project teams and engineering teams embedded with both the manufacturers in Europe right from the start and also order extra airframes as spares. We basically got 1 - 2 of our NH90s for nothing because NHI had to pay for the freight out by Antonov 124 due to the delays, and that cost NHI something like $20 million per flight apparently.
I'm lead to believe that is the case, SME actually get posted overseas as a leaning curve for the future production line here in Australia, that were AU & NZ diverge or at least government thinking in local employment opportunity. We actually an extra helicopter out of the deal for the delays, but in AU case I don't think using that as a source of spare would really go far due to the size of the fleets between AU & NZ


Having said all that, our procurement processes then weren't exactly stunning either, but since then we've learned quite a bit and now they've become quite professional, but there's always room for improvement. One of the things that they do well now is due diligence and the procurement system is a partnership between MOD and NZDF, with MOD co-opting NZDF subject matter experts as and when needed, as well as hiring appropriately qualified civilian experts for individual projects.
I think a lot of lessons have been learned the hard way to a degree, just look at how we buy of hot production lines in the US and mutual supply programs put in place, MH60R, Super Hornet C17. Supply seems to be the one area the Euros cant seem to compete in, size plays a role in that I guess
 

40 deg south

Well-Known Member
More than a month has passed since the last post referencing the RNZAF. Surely there must be something notable worth discussing related to Air Force operations or aircraft?

With the Manawanui set to arrive in May for its next round of upgrades before acceptance into the RNZN there must be some movement on the RPAS program?

Skeldar has racked up wins with the German and Canadian Navies recently.

Has this RPAS been trialed by NZDF?
http://www.navy.mil.nz/downloads/pdf/navy-today/nt207.pdf

Navy Today reported in 2017 that the OPV Wellington trialed the ScanEagle (pp11-12). I haven't seen any subseqent references to further trials or any planned purchase.

The tender requirements for the planned new-build dive/hydrographic vessel included a requirement to be able to hanger and operate rotary UAV of similar dimensions to the Schniebel S100. No idea if the second-hand vessel eventually purchased had that capability.
 

40 deg south

Well-Known Member
A couple of snippets to consider in relation to the pending fixed-wing purchase.

US Coast Guard accepted 12th C-130J aircraft

Whle the 'Sea Hercules' is nothing more than a powerpoint mock-up, there is a in-production variant designed for surface surveillance. That would be a very useful backup to NZ's four P-8s, particularly for locating stray Kiribati fishermen and the like. It would be interesting to know how much weight the surveillance fit-out adds to the aircraft, and whether it could be fitted as a pallestised option. Proven SAR capability could be another box to tick in the C-130J's favour.

Airbus Delivered 17 A400Ms in 2018, Two More Than Planned

In the Euro camp, sending in a top manager and staff from the commercial jet business appears to have paid off for the A400 programme, they completed a record number of aircraft last year. Ironically, it comes as planned production rates are to be cut to reduce costs and stretch out the lifespan of the programme.

This article claims (see photo caption) that Germany has now decided to accept its full quota 53 A400s, rather than on-selling a dozen of them. I haven't seen this elsewhere.

A400M replaces C-130J in Falkland Islands | Jane's 360

Interestingly, the A400 is also the designated SAR aircraft for the Falkland Islands, but I have no knowledge if this involves any sensors beyond the 'Mk 1 eyeball'.
 

beegee

Active Member
Jamaica has purchased a new Beechcraft King Air 350 WR maritime patrol aircraft.

Jamaica Defence Force commissions maritime surveillance aircraft

The twin-turboprop Beechcraft King Air 350 WR has been modified by Sierra Nevada Corporation with intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR) equipment. The JDF did not disclose what sort of ISR equipment was added to the aircraft, though the country’s cabinet reportedly approved a $16.9 million payment to Sierra Nevada and the inclusion of the aircraft under the Maritime Air and Cyber Command suggests it may have electronic eavesdropping capabilities, as well as the ability to track boats hauling contraband.
https://www.sncorp.com/media/1989/ims_scorpion.pdf

I think that aircraft would be perfect for NZ's supplementary MP system to complement the P-8. We already operate the KA350, so the introduction to service costs should be minimal and beyond MP it could be used as a general ISR platform.
 
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ngatimozart

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Jamaica has purchased a new Beechcraft King Air 350 WR maritime patrol aircraft.

Jamaica Defence Force commissions maritime surveillance aircraft



https://www.sncorp.com/media/1989/ims_scorpion.pdf

I think that aircraft would be perfect for NZ's supplementary MP system to complement the P-8. We already operate the KA350, so the introduction to service costs should be minimal and beyond MP it could be used as a general ISR platform.
Of course we could also just acquire green KA-35oER or similar and integrate the sensors, comms gear and consoles off the retired P-3K2. They're more than ample for the taskings.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I don't think that Australia did due diligence on it's MRH, Tiger, MU90 and Seasprite acquisitions and I wonder how well structure their business cases for each project was. That's the impression I get anyway. With the Seasprite it wasn't the actual aircraft itself, but the upgrades in technology that the RAN wanted and stuck to when it was apparent that it wasn't going to work. Pig headiness maybe but bloody expensive for nothing. I think with both the MRH and Tiger the ADF should've had project teams and engineering teams embedded with both the manufacturers in Europe right from the start and also order extra airframes as spares. We basically got 1 - 2 of our NH90s for nothing because NHI had to pay for the freight out by Antonov 124 due to the delays, and that cost NHI something like $20 million per flight apparently.

Having said all that, our procurement processes then weren't exactly stunning either, but since then we've learned quite a bit and now they've become quite professional, but there's always room for improvement. One of the things that they do well now is due diligence and the procurement system is a partnership between MOD and NZDF, with MOD co-opting NZDF subject matter experts as and when needed, as well as hiring appropriately qualified civilian experts for individual projects.
The Seasprite IMO is a bit of a special case. In part because of the level of capability desired in the avionics fitout, and then AusGov adopting FAA regs for helicopter backup systems after the avionics issues had been resolved, which then required more/new work on the avionics.

It has been something like a decade, but IIRC the FAA had adopted a requirement that single-pilot helicopters using a digital flight control system had to have a backup digital flight control system in case something happened to the primary during flight.

With the desired Seasprite avionics, the RAN had requested design work to reduce the crew of RAN Seasprites from a pilot & co-pilot plus WSO to just a pilot & WSO. This was also prior to Australia adopting the FAA rule regarding backup digital systems. Therefore, Kaman got to work developing a new cockpit and avionics package so that a crew of two could operate a Seasprite, leading to the development of a digital cockpit and a primary flight control system that was also digital. However, at the time the back up flight control system was a manual one since there was not a requirement to develop a backup digital one.

A number years go by, and Kaman is just about ready to submit the helicopter based upon the requirements provided, but the Australian gov't in the mean time had adopted the FAA rule about requiring a digital backup for a digital primary flight control system. Kaman could have changed the manual back up to a digital back up for an extra AUD$24 mil. IIRC, but the stumbling block is that while the cost was not all that high, it would have required a further two years of delay as new design work and testing would have been needed. IIRC Kaman also made the argument that the manual backup system was perfectly adequate and tried to obtain a waiver for the digital back up. In the end, the decisions were that no waiver would be granted, and that Australia could not wait a further two years and instead just sold the Seasprites.

In the above, it was not so much an issue with due diligence, but more about a very ambitious programme, coupled with changing goalposts.

As I mention elsewhere (RAN thread, perhaps?) for some of the other kit, I believe the end decisions were made mostly by pollies, who made the decisions based upon what was most politically advantageous for them and/or their party, and not what was the 'best' or desired piece of kit by the services.
 
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