Royal New Zealand Air Force

[KiwiRob]

How did Taxinda get to New York, was it commercial or did she take a 757?

If you look at the photo databases on airliners.net and jethotos.com those 757's get around the world a fair bit, the ministers in Wellington would probably miss them if they weren't replaced like for like. A couple of A321LR's with a main deck cargo door and a VIP cabin up front would be worthy replacement, plus with Air NZ operating the same type with sims in NZ training and maintenance would be a doodle.

 

[Rob c]

I would prefer the 757 replacement to be either of the C 2 or A 400 with a passenger pod for the VIPs. Given the Labour governments tendency to want to appear more egalitarian than a National government, this may be more acceptable than a more VIP looking aircraft. At a later date if the pollies find that their ego's are not being pandered to, then let them come up with more money to get an airline type of aircraft to cover the VIP role as Piggy did in the early 80's when he was embarrassed by being offered a ride by the Ozzie PM .

 

[MrConservative]

With all due respect MrC

The FAMC requirements says no less than current capability. It doesnt say individual aircraft capability. Interpretation is open to discussion.

The individual business case assessment does and performance criteria are evaluated on previous operations such as Samoa Assist, Timor Leste, Deep Freeze and Enduring Freedom amongst others as well other factors such as the ability to airdrop the Tokelau's a NZ dependency which does not have an airstrip and Aitutaki in the northern Cooks which does. Tactical loads - strategic distances!

Two A400M each have a max payload of 81600 pounds . Add in six C295W with 20000 pounds each of payload plus an A321 Neo and thats a total of 340000 pounds. Compared to the current 220000 for the Hercules plus 120000 pounds for the two Boeings and its an even replacement at 340000.

So if two A400M plus five C130Js are acquired the total load is slightly more but three less airframes than an all Airbus fleet could provide.

Full load is all well and good but in the real world the only offshore territory that a C-295W can deploy full load is Norfolk island and would need refuelling to get back. It also lacks a APU which does present issues.

Using a hub and spoke program the A400s would fly into the islands loaded and offload into the C295Ws to deliver aid to the hard hit areas using its size to great advantage. One A400M bringing four loads for a single C295W. This is doable .Its just not how things have been done by NZ up to this point.

Three Squadron with 40 Squadron has done hub and spoke for decades and does not require landing strips. The short range utility transport role once the prevail of the Andover was embraced into the MUH project 15 years ago with the NH90 resulting.

 

[MrConservative]

How did Taxinda get to New York, was it commercial or did she take a 757?

Broomstick?

If you look at the photo databases on airliners.net and jethotos.com those 757's get around the world a fair bit, the ministers in Wellington would probably miss them if they weren't replaced like for like. A couple of A321LR's with a main deck cargo door and a VIP cabin up front would be worthy replacement, plus with Air NZ operating the same type with sims in NZ training and maintenance would be a doodle.

One of the reasons why they did not ditch them following the VFM was emergency repatriation of Kiwi's from overseas, which cannot be simply achieved by charter or commercial. Imagine how embarrassing it would be for a PM to say that 400 Kiwi tourists in whatever disaster or riot affected foreign locality cannot be rescued - poll numbers would collapse - politically bigger numbers than the $26m a year it costs to keep a single B757 airborne.

 

[Shanesworld]

I don't remember much at all as a consequence for gotd with the herc breakdowns with the Thai political crisis in.... I forget the year l. But the public seemed as apathetic as sheep.

 

[MrConservative]

I don't remember much at all as a consequence for gotd with the herc breakdowns with the Thai political crisis in.... I forget the year l. But the public seemed as apathetic as sheep.

Luckily previous incidents/delays have been sorted in under 48 hours. The political problem is if the delay drags out to 5 - 7 days then the public turns feral.

 

[RegR]

Again, IMO the purchase of a civilian airliner for use as a VIP transport does not make sense for NZ. The main capability it would provide NZ which would not be available via other transportation methods would be to stroke the ego of the VIP. After all, how often do NZ personnel attend diplomatic conferences or engage in trade negotiations where NZ has to send 100+ personnel to participate? Also having a fleet size of just a single aircraft is also practically begging for mission failures to occur, and/or missions to be aborted.

TBH in all my time in the NZDF I would say my travel time using C130 and B727/757s was split evenly during exs and ops so that's saying something considering we have 5 hercs and 2 boeings and let's just say I don't do VIP so to focus on that solely for the boeings is alittle innacurate at best.

Most exs in fact favour the boeings to move the pers and equipment (remember we don't always deploy vehicles/outsize cargo as not required, established ops etc) and in fact some of those C130 flights were actually fill ins for U/S 757s. The hercs generally took care of the freight heavy and the boeings the people centric missions and did'nt nesscessarily need to be 100+ pers either as I've been in both types where there was 20-50 people max on the flights dependant (anything smaller was generally Civair) but usually tried to cover con-current missions or allied flights to make max use but again not always possible or practical. The boeings lion share transport is still NZDF focussed rather than trade negotiations or even the govt diplomats despite what some may think and are actually the primary choice in many instances and the hercs are in fact the secondary as most deployments have access to established air hubs, again despite what many think. We seem to always get caught up in the "combat" nature of NZDF missions and tasks so therefore think everything is geared accordingly when in reality the basic task of moving pers/freight from A to B is more often than not quite mundane and in fact routine and therefore so is the response required, general transport is no different.

 

[Rob c]

TBH in all my time in the NZDF I would say my travel time using C130 and B727/757s was split evenly during exs and ops so that's saying something considering we have 5 hercs and 2 boeings and let's just say I don't do VIP so to focus on that solely for the boeings is alittle innacurate at best.

Most exs in fact favour the boeings to move the pers and equipment (remember we don't always deploy vehicles/outsize cargo as not required, established ops etc) and in fact some of those C130 flights were actually fill ins for U/S 757s. The hercs generally took care of the freight heavy and the boeings the people centric missions and did'nt nesscessarily need to be 100+ pers either as I've been in both types where there was 20-50 people max on the flights dependant (anything smaller was generally Civair) but usually tried to cover con-current missions or allied flights to make max use but again not always possible or practical. The boeings lion share transport is still NZDF focussed rather than trade negotiations or even the govt diplomats despite what some may think and are actually the primary choice in many instances and the hercs are in fact the secondary as most deployments have access to established air hubs, again despite what many think. We seem to always get caught up in the "combat" nature of NZDF missions and tasks so therefore think everything is geared accordingly when in reality the basic task of moving pers/freight from A to B is more often than not quite mundane and in fact routine and therefore so is the response required, general transport is no different.

I agree that this is what happens normally and in my time I made sure that when travelling on 75 sqn exercises I travelled by 727 after they arrived in the air force. A lot more comfortable. However I still believe you don't buy replacements to cover normal duties, but make sure they can cover the abnormal functions when the crap hits the fan. The same thinking that has lead to the P 8. If we had had bought for the day to day functions of the P 3 would we have arrived at the P 8?

 

[RegR]

I agree that this is what happens normally and in my time I made sure that when travelling on 75 sqn exercises I travelled by 727 after they arrived in the air force. A lot more comfortable. However I still believe you don't buy replacements to cover normal duties, but make sure they can cover the abnormal functions when the crap hits the fan. The same thinking that has lead to the P 8. If we had had bought for the day to day functions of the P 3 would we have arrived at the P 8?

Agreed, in fact in many instances the boeings were actually easier and simpler for moves especially bulk pax obviously.

Actually IMO yes the P8 was the only current viable alternative for the P3 for our day to day ops, anything else would have either been to vanilla, un-proven, orphan or a downgrade, the added benefits and advancements are merely a bonus but also natural progression in modern times so to be expected. Some could argue to cover more options we possibly could have gone down the bespoke sea herc path but whilst an "upgrade" in some terms definately a downgrade in it's core tasks.

I see A400 in a similar way and it is pretty much just a bigger C130 so do we really need 2 of the "same"? May as well just get more of the better optioned version with strategic qualities and be done with it rather than essentially 2 freighters in essentially the same role. I don't compare the 757s to the C130s, different types for different roles but I do compare A400 to C130 as do other nations as it was originally touted as a C130 replacment not supplement, only current deficiancies have forced that hand and I fear in our case cost could be a deciding factor in any fleet make up rather than actual practicality.

 

[t68]

I see A400 in a similar way and it is pretty much just a bigger C130 so do we really need 2 of the "same"? May as well just get more of the better optioned version with strategic qualities and be done with it rather than essentially 2 freighters in essentially the same role. I don't compare the 757s to the C130s, different types for different roles but I do compare A400 to C130 as do other nations as it was originally touted as a C130 replacment not supplement, only current deficiancies have forced that hand and I fear in our case cost could be a deciding factor in any fleet make up rather than actual practicality.

Agree the roles overlap which is a good thing in my opinion, but it also comes down to how many airframes fit the budget, if the entire budget only allows 4x A400M it’s not ideal but if the budget allows 2x A400M and 6 C130J or a mix of J& KC30 more aircraft would be the better choice IMO.

 

[Rob c]

Actually IMO yes the P8 was the only current viable alternative for the P3 for our day to day ops, anything else would have either been to vanilla, un-proven, orphan or a downgrade, the added benefits and advancements are merely a bonus but also natural progression in modern times so to be expected. Some could argue to cover more options we possibly could have gone down the bespoke sea herc path but whilst an "upgrade" in some terms definately a downgrade in it's core tasks.

There are a significant number of aircraft that can do the day to day MPA role including aircraft like the C295 MPA or the Ka 350 MPA versions. Also some countries simply fit the gear of their choice to an airframe of their choice, and a reasonable capability can be achieved as was the case with our K2 upgrade of our P3's We are talking about the basic day to day MPA role in peacetime.

 

[ASSAIL]

There are a significant number of aircraft that can do the day to day MPA role including aircraft like the C295 MPA or the Ka 350 MPA versions. Also some countries simply fit the gear of their choice to an airframe of their choice, and a reasonable capability can be achieved as was the case with our K2 upgrade of our P3's We are talking about the basic day to day MPA role in peacetime.

The RNZAF does not prepare for peace!
The task you describe would be better carried out by a civilian organisation like the Dept. of Transport and they are free to choose any number of SAR type aircraft.
Surely you require the most lethal capability available whose primary task is searching for submarines and ISR, one that is both comparable with and sustainable by your major allies in order to extend the forces effectiveness.
Only when that is achieved can you turn to using the force in a subsidiary peacetime role whoever and whenever your government dictates.

 

[kiwipatriot69]

Agree the roles overlap which is a good thing in my opinion, but it also comes down to how many airframes fit the budget, if the entire budget only allows 4x A400M it’s not ideal but if the budget allows 2x A400M and 6 C130J or a mix of J& KC30 more aircraft would be the better choice IMO.

Given that recent reports earlier this year from both flight global and Airbus stating production numbers will be cut to eight A400 airframes per year from 2019, and they still have ninety orders to fill, that means it's going to take till 2030 to complete just the initial orders! I think two A400 M would be a stretch, would Germany, France, UK etc give up slots for even two, let alone four now?

 

[John Fedup]

France, no, UK probably not, Germany, yes, given how hard pressed they are to fund maintenance plus numerous other kit it needs to be replaced. Delaying A400Ms is doable now that Germany is buying C-130Js.

 

[t68]

Given that recent reports earlier this year from both flight global and Airbus stating production numbers will be cut to eight A400 airframes per year from 2019, and they still have ninety orders to fill, that means it's going to take till 2030 to complete just the initial orders! I think two A400 M would be a stretch, would Germany, France, UK etc give up slots for even two, let alone four now?

I think partner countries will most likely make production spots available as part of the €3.5bn government bailout includes an agreement for shares in the profits for additional export aircraft sold, small cookies now,But their is potential for more orders.

RAAF C130J I believe are expected to be retired around 2030 unless Lockheed secures a new contract for C130J production the current contract has the C130J line closing August 2026. Now that Boeing has closed the C17 line and the first C17 was delivered in 1993 it will be interesting to see what comes out of the market C130 cant go on forever that's where I believe Airbus most potential lays, post 2030.

Lockheed Martin (LMT) Clinches $10B Super Hercules Deal

RAAF marks 800,000 Hercules flying hours - Australian Aviation

UK defence jobs row brews as Airbus secures A400M rescue

 

[RegR]

There are a significant number of aircraft that can do the day to day MPA role including aircraft like the C295 MPA or the Ka 350 MPA versions. Also some countries simply fit the gear of their choice to an airframe of their choice, and a reasonable capability can be achieved as was the case with our K2 upgrade of our P3's We are talking about the basic day to day MPA role in peacetime.

The size of our EEZ alone nevermind our international commitments precludes those types from our "day to day" role ie responding to lost fisherman in the islands at short notice regularly due to a number of factors, range, speed, endurance and loiter time. Capacity, crew comfort and future proofing are a few more and those ARE just the peacetime considerations therefore just covering off that portion of tasks is again just that, a downgrade from what we have now. Now take into account our military commitments and those aircraft are somewhat lacking and that is something we literally cannot afford regardless of how seemingly minor or perception of compromise.

The types you mention will make good supplentary tier 2s for us, C295 in fact a very decent one, but sadly not primary tier 1s for what we require now and into the future.

 

[ngatimozart]

The RNZAF does not prepare for peace!
The task you describe would be better carried out by a civilian organisation like the Dept. of Transport and they are free to choose any number of SAR type aircraft.
Surely you require the most lethal capability available whose primary task is searching for submarines and ISR, one that is both comparable with and sustainable by your major allies in order to extend the forces effectiveness.
Only when that is achieved can you turn to using the force in a subsidiary peacetime role whoever and whenever your government dictates.

BZ @ASSAIL and that is what people forget.

A military force prepares for the worse and hopes for the best. The primary mission of a military force is the defence of its homeland and people. To achieve that it has to do unto the enemy before the enemy does unto it. Anything else is of secondary consideration, even in, actually especially in peacetime because historically, it is during peacetime that militaries are generally neglected, downsized, with important skills and institutional knowledge being forgotten and unfortunately having to be rebuilt and relearned on the battlefield, paid for in blood.

That definition may appear brutal to some people but I make no apologies for it because that is what a military force is. It's not a game of tiddly winks as some pollies and members of the general public may think.

 

[Rob c]

The RNZAF does not prepare for peace!
The task you describe would be better carried out by a civilian organisation like the Dept. of Transport and they are free to choose any number of SAR type aircraft.
Surely you require the most lethal capability available whose primary task is searching for submarines and ISR, one that is both comparable with and sustainable by your major allies in order to extend the forces effectiveness.
Only when that is achieved can you turn to using the force in a subsidiary peacetime role whoever and whenever your government dictates.

EXACTLY. this was the point I was trying to get across, in regard to the FAMC and was using the P 3 replacement as a point of what could have happened if this was not the case. this would have been apparent from my previous posts. I did state that we should NOT base our replacement program on what was needed day to day , but rather on what was needed when the crap hit the fan.
It is for this reason that I also would like to see the reintroduction of the AFC.

 

[hauritz]

I think partner countries will most likely make production spots available as part of the €3.5bn government bailout includes an agreement for shares in the profits for additional export aircraft sold, small cookies now,But their is potential for more orders.

RAAF C130J I believe are expected to be retired around 2030 unless Lockheed secures a new contract for C130J production the current contract has the C130J line closing August 2026. Now that Boeing has closed the C17 line and the first C17 was delivered in 1993 it will be interesting to see what comes out of the market C130 cant go on forever that's where I believe Airbus most potential lays, post 2030.

Lockheed Martin (LMT) Clinches $10B Super Hercules Deal

RAAF marks 800,000 Hercules flying hours - Australian Aviation

UK defence jobs row brews as Airbus secures A400M rescue

I didn't realise that the RAAF was looking at replacing the C-130J in 2030. That is only 12 years away. Hopefully the Europeans will have sorted out their A-400 problems by then.

 

[Redlands18]

I didn't realise that the RAAF was looking at replacing the C-130J in 2030. That is only 12 years away. Hopefully the Europeans will have sorted out their A-400 problems by then.

That will be a very interesting one, for decades now we have just replaced our Hercs with the latest model due as much to lack of alternatives as anything(operational req allowed for the C-17 Buy) but this time it looks like its going to be a very open Market with the A400, KC-390, C-2 all possibly on the Market and I would not right the Herc of yet.
I expect it to be in the next DWP/IIP due mid 20s.