Royal New Zealand Air Force

[t68]

That may have worked prior to the late 1990s, however since the swings of NZ politics and low investment in defence, means NZ no longer has the level of trust from Canberra that it used to have.

Also NZ will only cater to the bare essentials it would not really be a substitute for P3 gor which I fully expect a P8 purshace in the future. A armed UAV would be very low on the essential list.

Actually I am surprised its on the list for AusGov

 

[ADMk2]

Also NZ will only cater to the bare essentials it would not really be a substitute for P3 gor which I fully expect a P8 purshace in the future. A armed UAV would be very low on the essential list.

Actually I am surprised its on the list for AusGov

Heron has proven the usefulness of a MALE UAV system. Adding a strike / CAS capability is the inevitable next step.

 

[t68]

Heron has proven the usefulness of a MALE UAV system. Adding a strike / CAS capability is the inevitable next step.

Not debating the capabilty just the actual order from a long term goverment stance of not up setting the status quo and provoking an arms race in the region, which has defined a number of platform purchase over the years.

 

[ADMk2]

Not debating the capabilty just the actual order from a long term goverment stance of not up setting the status quo and provoking an arms race in the region, which has defined a number of platform purchase over the years.

Since JASSM, mooted Tomahawk and Growler have come on to the scene, I suspect the regional balance isn't that much of an issue nowadays...

 

[Volkodav]

Since JASSM, mooted Tomahawk and Growler have come on to the scene, I suspect the regional balance isn't that much of an issue nowadays...

I think the region sees Australia more as a supportive friend than a competitor these days.

 

[ADMk2]

I think the region sees Australia more as a supportive friend than a competitor these days.

Agreed, besides which I doubt a squadron or so of Hellfire armed Reapers (et al) has the region shaking in it's boots 'strategically' compared to 100 odd JSF's, Shor ets / Growler, AARGM, JASSM, Tomahawk (or similar) 8-10 new subs, Wedgetail, P-8A, G550 C4ISREW platforms, LHD's and so on...

 

[40 deg south]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=4&v=qkOM14FuP9s

Nice little video of new SAR life rafts for the Air Force. Presumably they would normally be carried aboard a P3C rather than a C130.

 

[ngatimozart]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=4&v=qkOM14FuP9s

Nice little video of new SAR life rafts for the Air Force. Presumably they would normally be carried aboard a P3C rather than a C130.

They've already be rated for the Orions. This is just adding to their utility.

 

[meatshield]

Agreed, besides which I doubt a squadron or so of Hellfire armed Reapers (et al) has the region shaking in it's boots 'strategically' compared to 100 odd JSF's, Shor ets / Growler, AARGM, JASSM, Tomahawk (or similar) 8-10 new subs, Wedgetail, P-8A, G550 C4ISREW platforms, LHD's and so on...

When you put it like that it seams like a pretty impressive list!!

 

[t68]

When you put it like that it seams like a pretty impressive list!!

When take as a capabilty for the entire ADF it's not much to write home about, but when you take it with the capabilty in isolation and mix it with previous liberal goverment stance of raids and pre-emptive raids/strike then you can see we're concern my come from some of the neighbours.

The MQ-9 Reaper capabilty would be an excellent capabilty for irregular warfare objectives in time sensitive operation's whilst conducting ISR missions. No idea where the current administration sits with this.

"Dr Mahathir joined the outrage across South-East Asia over remarks by John Howard, the Australian prime minister, hinting that he was willing to sanction pre-emptive strikes against terrorists in neighbouring states."


Raids will mean war, Australia is warned - Telegraph

 

[t68]

Nagati

Just for your information in relation to a possible minimum cost of rebuilding an ACF. On Feb 12 DSCA announced a possible FMS of 8x F-16 Block 52 to Pakistan for a USD $699.04 million which by the currency converter is just over a 1 billion NZD or 100m py over 10 years

The Government of Pakistan – F-16 Block 52 Aircraft | The Official Home of the Defense Security Cooperation Agency

The total contract is for,
“Eight (8) F-16 Block 52 aircraft (two (2) C and six (6) D models), with the F100-PW-229 increased performance engine, Fourteen (14) Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS)

Non-MDE items included in this request are eight (8) AN/APG-68(V)9 radars, and eight (8) ALQ-211(V)9 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suites (AIDEWS). Additionally, this possible sale includes spare and repair parts, support and test equipment, publications and technical documentation, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor engineering, technical and logistics support services, and other related elements of logistical and program support.”

The section in bold would be the most critical need for NZAF to regenerate an ACF, but this does not take into account weapons and pilot training and also the new infrastructure need to accommodate the aircraft.

 

[t68]

on the subject of armed UAV the strategist post the article a week ago on the possibilities of MQ-9 in ADF service

The ADF and armed drones

They also state that they will publish two posts on that date about armed drones, which together form ASPI’s open submission to the Committee, but unfortunately they don't seem to have a function to access articles by date only article I can recover are from about a year ago

 

[kiwipatriot69]

8 F16 seems woefully inadequate for a 'possible' rebuild of our ACF, didnt we have two squadrons or so of skyhawks in the past? So more like 2 billion Nz dollars minimum really. Would our new Texan t6 trainers and pilot training need a overhall too, IF we went down this path? I still think it would be far easier, and cheaper to supplement what we have with drones.

 

[RegR]

8 F16 seems woefully inadequate for a 'possible' rebuild of our ACF, didnt we have two squadrons or so of skyhawks in the past? So more like 2 billion Nz dollars minimum really. Would our new Texan t6 trainers and pilot training need a overhall too, IF we went down this path? I still think it would be far easier, and cheaper to supplement what we have with drones.

Actually it's for 14, 8 single seat and 6 2 seat. Ironically we purchased the same amount of skyhawks initially and survived for well over a decade before we aqquired the 10 ex RAN models and raised the second squadron which we essentially just leased back to Aus and based out of Nowra for maritime attack training for RAN (apparently we were pretty good). They obviously conduct their own training with hawks now so the second squadron would not be required.

A single squadron along with 9 hawk types as lead in would follow nicely from the texans in terms of the training syllabus.

Interesting to see the possible costs involved regardless of how far gone the capability is.

 

[ngatimozart]

Actually it's for 14, 8 single seat and 6 2 seat. Ironically we purchased the same amount of skyhawks initially and survived for well over a decade before we aqquired the 10 ex RAN models and raised the second squadron which we essentially just leased back to Aus and based out of Nowra for maritime attack training for RAN (apparently we were pretty good). They obviously conduct their own training with hawks now so the second squadron would not be required.

A single squadron along with 9 hawk types as lead in would follow nicely from the texans in terms of the training syllabus.

Interesting to see the possible costs involved regardless of how far gone the capability is.

According to Don Simms book about the Skyhawks in RNZAF service, it was determined during the 1990s that a minimum of 18 aircraft were required to undertake the taskings required. I've got the coatings on my other computer so will post them later tonight.

 

[RegR]

According to Don Simms book about the Skyhawks in RNZAF service, it was determined during the 1990s that a minimum of 18 aircraft were required to undertake the taskings required. I've got the coatings on my other computer so will post them later tonight.

Yes I read that also somewhere, does make sense with minimum operational requirements along with an OCU, attrition etc for a singular squadron. Classic NZDF however, Service wants X govts thinking Y compromise service gets Z. Think the only time they won the numbers game was NZLAV haha

 

[t68]

Actually it's for 14, 8 single seat and 6 2 seat.

.

Hi Reg

Where do you get those numbers from by chance, as the DSCA clearly say 8 in total.


Eight (8) F-16 Block 52 aircraft (two (2) C and six (6) D models)

 

[RegR]

Hi Reg

Where do you get those numbers from by chance, as the DSCA clearly say 8 in total.


Eight (8) F-16 Block 52 aircraft (two (2) C and six (6) D models)

Oh sorry read it wrong, definately not a good idea then, small numbers big price, nil real gain. US could always 'gift' us some parked up models if it was deemed a useful proposition I guess.

 

[t68]

Oh sorry read it wrong, definately not a good idea then, small numbers big price, nil real gain. US could always 'gift' us some parked up models if it was deemed a useful proposition I guess.

To be honest unless you commit to it totally I don't see the point in doing half arsed and that means jumping straight into the deep end with JSF.


But since the chances of that happening is zero, I'd like to see a better investment within the JATF. That includes more NH-90 eventual replacement of SH-2G with Lynx Wildcat or similar that can do more than just ASW. A more sustainable shipping for JATF preferably with a well dock and hanger for upto 6 helicopters, a better investment in offensive land capabilty

 

[ngatimozart]

Nagati

Just for your information in relation to a possible minimum cost of rebuilding an ACF. On Feb 12 DSCA announced a possible FMS of 8x F-16 Block 52 to Pakistan for a USD $699.04 million which by the currency converter is just over a 1 billion NZD or 100m py over 10 years

The Government of Pakistan – F-16 Block 52 Aircraft | The Official Home of the Defense Security Cooperation Agency

The total contract is for,
“Eight (8) F-16 Block 52 aircraft (two (2) C and six (6) D models), with the F100-PW-229 increased performance engine, Fourteen (14) Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS)

Non-MDE items included in this request are eight (8) AN/APG-68(V)9 radars, and eight (8) ALQ-211(V)9 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suites (AIDEWS). Additionally, this possible sale includes spare and repair parts, support and test equipment, publications and technical documentation, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor engineering, technical and logistics support services, and other related elements of logistical and program support.”

The section in bold would be the most critical need for NZAF to regenerate an ACF, but this does not take into account weapons and pilot training and also the new infrastructure need to accommodate the aircraft.

These are the figures for setting up an ACF. The figures include a guesstimate of the term of life costs.

• KAI TA50 LIFT US$35 million flyaway cost: 12 = NZ$0.6 billion
• F16 Block 52 US$70 million flyaway cost: 18 = NZ$4.7 billion + LIFT = NZ$5.3 billion
• F18F Super Hornets US$65.3 million flyaway cost: 18 = NZ$4.3 billion + LIFT = NZ$4.9 billion

Hence quite an expensive undertaking. The loading that I have used for the Term Of Life Costing is Flyaway Cost plus 250%. Whilst I believe that this is NOT how the NZG calculate thru life costs, it should give an indication of the total costs. The flyaway costs are only as accurate as the info that is on the websites where I accessed the data, so should be taken as indicative only. Exchange rate was NZ$1.00 = US$0.6824.