Royal New Zealand Air Force

[kiwipatriot69]

Given the funds earmarked for replacing the hercules and 757 is one billion, spending 600 million on two C17 would barely leave us enough for four C130 J. Going for commonality and interoperability, and sharing with Austrailia. This course would leave us a few planes short, with no plane for Vip role. With A400M airbus from what ive read in the aforementioned herald article, they cost around $200 million Us dollars each which gives us 4 airframes,with spares to come under budget. So it seems we might end up with less Airplanes either option,unless more capital is injected. How bad is the airllift situation in RNZAF,does it warrant immeadiate replacement of some aircraft now?

 

[Zero Alpha]

As reported on another forum, the Project Manager job for the Future Air Mobility Capability Project is being advertised on the NZDF website. The project sits within Capability Branch at the MoD (not Acquisition) and has a capital budget of up to NZ$2.18 Billion (from the DMRR).

 

[ngatimozart]

As reported on another forum, the Project Manager job for the Future Air Mobility Capability Project is being advertised on the NZDF website. The project sits within Capability Branch at the MoD (not Acquisition) and has a capital budget of up to NZ$2.18 Billion (from the DMRR).

And applications close tomorrow. That's an increase of NZ$600 million in round figures, so that is encouraging. I was just reading the job description which cites the figure.

 

[t68]

And applications close tomorrow. That's an increase of NZ$600 million in round figures, so that is encouraging. I was just reading the job description which cites the figure.

They increased the budget for the air mobility replacement by the same amount as the C17 buy in, the gods must smiling on RNZAF

 

[RegR]

So they will still have the original allocated budget plus conveniently enough to cover the purchase of 2 C17? Awesome news for NZ air transport but I still say go for 3 for a number of reasons as the funding seems to be there and govt willing.

That will still leave 1 bn for the second tier(s) when the time comes, good news for RNZAF and NZDF if it pans out (even though I still favour a airbus flavour personally).

 

[Zero Alpha]

We don't know what sort of level of through-life support is expected from that budget.

Still, $180M should buy a J model Herc (for arguments sake), with its spares and support package.

It appears there would be enough in the budget for 1:1 of Hercs with A400 + a couple of commercial airliners. Or a pair of C-17s and 1:1 Herc replacement with J-models.

 

[Nick underscore]

We don't know what sort of level of through-life support is expected from that budget.

Still, $180M should buy a J model Herc (for arguments sake), with its spares and support package.

It appears there would be enough in the budget for 1:1 of Hercs with A400 + a couple of commercial airliners. Or a pair of C-17s and 1:1 Herc replacement with J-models.

To ensure I'm on the right page. The Future Air mobility capability budget (revised up now to ~$2.2bio) covers just strategic lift requirements or does it also include the tactical element? I was assuming the latter

 

[Zero Alpha]

To ensure I'm on the right page. The Future Air mobility capability budget (revised up now to ~$2.2bio) covers just strategic lift requirements or does it also include the tactical element? I was assuming the latter

No, it's all air mobility (project and sustain). Potentially that could include rotary assets too, but scope and definitions haven't been put in the public domain.

 

[40 deg south]

They increased the budget for the air mobility replacement by the same amount as the C17 buy in, the gods must smiling on RNZAF

I've seen the 'old' suggested $1.6 billion budget for Air Mobility thrown around, but can anyone tell me where it comes from? Had a quick glance at the DMRR, but most of the figures there were withheld.

 

[Volkodav]

With C-17 in service would NZ need C-130 at all, or would C295 or C-27J be perfectly adequate? Remembering the C-17 will give NZ the capability to rapidly deploy NH90s wherever they are needed, which may well be more useful than multiple C-130 flights.

 

[ngatimozart]

UH1H Iroquois disposal RFT

I've seen the 'old' suggested $1.6 billion budget for Air Mobility thrown around, but can anyone tell me where it comes from? Had a quick glance at the DMRR, but most of the figures there were withheld.

IIRC the figures are in the Defence Capability Plan 2014.

The RFT for the remaining RNZAF UH1H Iroquois disposal is out.

New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF) invites tenders from prospective purchasers for the remaining Royal New Zealand Air Force (RNZAF) Iroquois fleet and associated holdings, which is referred to as the ‘Iroquois package’. The Iroquois package is to be sold on an ‘as is, where is’ basis without any warranty as to fitness for purpose or airworthiness in their current state.

The Tender is available on NZDF's SmartProcure website https://nzdf.bravosolution.com. Tenderers must log on to access the tender and submit a response. Registration is simple and free, just click "Register Now". If you require assistance by email, this is available by email to: [email protected].

All enquiries regarding this tender must be in writing through NZDF's SmartProcure message system. NZDF will endeavour to respond in writing to written enquires within four working days.

*Note: There is no tender documentation on GETS*

I don't know how many airframes it involves.

 

[Zero Alpha]

With C-17 in service would NZ need C-130 at all, or would C295 or C-27J be perfectly adequate? Remembering the C-17 will give NZ the capability to rapidly deploy NH90s wherever they are needed, which may well be more useful than multiple C-130 flights.

I'd be inclined to use the Herc, since it has more inherent flexibility.

The interesting thing will be if they ditch the VIP capability.

 

[shanes_world_05]

I'd be inclined to use the Herc, since it has more inherent flexibility.

The interesting thing will be if they ditch the VIP capability.

Perhaps in the interests of commonality and strategic alignment 2 C-17's, 4 KC-130-J's and the associate AAR and Harvest Hawk kits?
Strategic & tactical lift, AAR, 2nd tier MPA, limited CAS/overwatch.

A400M is a tempting proposition but there is alot to be said for "proven".

But yes very interesting regards VIP role.

 

[ngatimozart]

With C-17 in service would NZ need C-130 at all, or would C295 or C-27J be perfectly adequate? Remembering the C-17 will give NZ the capability to rapidly deploy NH90s wherever they are needed, which may well be more useful than multiple C-130 flights.

I'd be inclined to use the Herc, since it has more inherent flexibility.

The interesting thing will be if they ditch the VIP capability.

I think that if the C17s are acquired then the C130 would be the choice as the second platform. Whilst I believe that in the long run it would be more cost effective and militarily efficient in the long term to acquire the A400M instead of the C130. However that would necessitate a third platform of the C27J / C295 type to be acquired or utilising Chooks or MV22 Ospreys as tactical air lifters. Either way this option would mean significant upfront costs and require a large injection of extra CAPEX. I note that the RAF / AAC are in the process of using the C17A / A400M / Chook option once they retire their C130s. With regard to VIP aircraft I don't see them as a necessity for the NZDF.

 

[RegR]

The problem we had with C130 was it's inability to transport our outsize loads effectively or move smaller loads efficiently therefore without us aqquireing a 3 tier cargo fleet (C17, A400/C130, C295/C27 or outsize, heavy, medium) which I do not see happening without diluting numbers in each then we cannot cover the full transport spectrum fully without compromise somewhere.

A C17/C130 mix will cover off outsize/heavy but not address the medium sector left vacant by the andover and a C130/C27 will status quo as well as fill the medium void but again not fullfill our outsize requirements.

To cover off the full gambit of air transport I think we would need to go for a hi-lo mix and spread the medium between the two accordingly ie C17/C27 or A400/C295 and bypass the C130 middle man. We would still have a degree of inefficiency mid-range loadwise with most likely an underloaded C17 or a fully loaded C27 to cover but at least be better able to cover a wider range somewhat more cost effectively.

This is why I prefer A400 as whilst not as large as C17 is still able to move our big gear and the gap between types is not as large with operating expenses to match. A400 is midway between C17 and C130 in terms of lift and size but can still move what we need it to move in our inventory obviously to a lesser degree than C17 but still over and above C130.

Going for the 'smaller' options could also leave funding available for a 757 type replacement as we will not miss this capability until it is not available in terms of bulk troop transport, AME, VIP etc. Somehow if we go for C17 I can see the 757s not being replaced.

Another advantage of the smaller lifter in the mix will be the commonality that could be possible with the proposed medium MPA platform and the associated cost/synergy benefits between the 2 separate but similar capabilities.

 

[Nick underscore]

..To cover off the full gambit of air transport I think we would need to go for a hi-lo mix and spread the medium between the two accordingly ie C17/C27 or A400/C295 and bypass the C130 middle man. We would still have a degree of inefficiency mid-range loadwise with most likely an underloaded C17 or a fully loaded C27 to cover but at least be better able to cover a wider range somewhat more cost effectively...

Agreed. Whatever the mix in platform types, I believe RNZAF should be looking strongly at a Hi/Lo capability balance. There will be some inefficient usage, but this could be partially offset, through partnership maintainence and regional part-supply 'pooling'.

As you quite rightly pointed out, the full air-mobility spectrum, cannot be covered within the current NZ Govt budget levels.

The contentious point IMV, will be the VIP requirements /priorities and how these eventually overlap. Without a dedicated platform or a passenger /cargo-conversion type, I can't see the VIP tasking's being placed on the C-17/A400, should they be selected.

The interdependancies with other upcoming RNZAF projects (i.e. MPA/ BAM), does indeed, make this an interesting (and difficult) decision pathway.

 

[aussienscale]

Does anyone have any information available with regards to Airport/Field/Strip access in NZ for Hercs ? How many places in NZ can they land, do you know what strips they can't land on in NZ ?

Cheers

 

[Zero Alpha]

Does anyone have any information available with regards to Airport/Field/Strip access in NZ for Hercs ? How many places in NZ can they land, do you know what strips they can't land on in NZ ?

Cheers

Raw figures from the World Fact Book are below.

The real issue with runways (especially unpaved ones) is the CBR (California Bearing Ratio) - basically how hard the surface is. The lower the CBR, the fewer cycles an aircraft at a given weight can perform before the runway becomes damaged.

Airports - with paved runways:
total: 39
over 3,047 m: 2
2,438 to 3,047 m: 1
1,524 to 2,437 m: 12
914 to 1,523 m: 23
under 914 m: 1 (2013)

Airports - with unpaved runways:
total: 84
1,524 to 2,437 m: 3
914 to 1,523 m: 33
under 914 m:
48 (2013)

 

[Zero Alpha]

The contentious point IMV, will be the VIP requirements /priorities and how these eventually overlap. Without a dedicated platform or a passenger /cargo-conversion type, I can't see the VIP tasking's being placed on the C-17/A400, should they be selected.

There's also a wildcard potential for a small transport for domestic use that can be thrashed for non-tactical loads. A surplus Air NZ 737 would probably be good for 10 years or so in that role and it would save the tactical airlifters for the roles they do well.

 

[KiwiRob]

There's also a wildcard potential for a small transport for domestic use that can be thrashed for non-tactical loads. A surplus Air NZ 737 would probably be good for 10 years or so in that role and it would save the tactical airlifters for the roles they do well.

I think all the 737's have found homes, plus they have been well flogged with poretty high cycles. The 4 remaining will be gone by September this year.

The early A320-200's which ANZ used for short haul international are coming up for replacement, these would be better than shagged 733's.