Royal New Zealand Air Force

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
It was a screw-up, but whose screw up was it? It would be very unusual for politicians to get involved in spares and support arrangements.
True, but pollies are not at all above putting in some serious limitations on defence procurement.

In the saga of Canadian naval/maritime/SAR helicopter procurement, politics seems to have been injected into the decision-making process at least a few times. I would not be at all surprised if politics played at least an indirect role in insufficient spares and/or support. Mandating a specific number of helicopters to be ordered, yet putting a strict cap on the overall budget for the programme would IMO be easy for a politician.

They can claim to have arranged a capability of nn pieces of kit to enter into service, while "only costing" xx in funding. This causes problems of course, because the politicians, media, and general public are generally ignorant that once a piece of kit has been brought into service, the kit itself requires ongoing maintenance and support, which requires either additional ongoing funding, or to have the funding factored in during the initial procurement.

Not quite sure why so many are ignorant of this, since anyone who owns any sort of property (be it a home/land, vehicles, etc.) need to expend resources for upkeep and maintenance.
 

Zero Alpha

New Member
I agree with what you're saying Tod, but I guess I'm just as likely to blame politics within the services for 'political' decisions as I am to blame parliamentarians. I don't know enough about the circumstances of the Canadian decision, but I'd wager that there were factions internally that wanted the project to fail. Parliamentarians don't like stories about defence screw ups - theirs of the oppositions - it distracts attention from issues that win votes. Those issues in NZ (and probably Canada) are very seldom defence related.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I agree with what you're saying Tod, but I guess I'm just as likely to blame politics within the services for 'political' decisions as I am to blame parliamentarians. I don't know enough about the circumstances of the Canadian decision, but I'd wager that there were factions internally that wanted the project to fail. Parliamentarians don't like stories about defence screw ups - theirs of the oppositions - it distracts attention from issues that win votes. Those issues in NZ (and probably Canada) are very seldom defence related.
Not to take the discussion too much further OT, since this is the RNZAF and not the RCAF discussion thread.

From what I have come across, Canada ordered two versions of the EH101 in 1987 to replace their SH-3/S-61 Sea King (local designation CH-124) ASW and CH-46 Labrador (local designation CH-113) SAR helicopters. Following the significant change in gov't after the 1993 election, the new gov't opted to cancel order placed by their immediate predecessors and instead retain the ASW and SAR helicopters that were in service at the time. IIRC this caused some concern and discontent because no helicopters were delivered, yet Canada still had to pay CAN$157 mil. in cancellation penalties, and the helicopters being retained had been in service for ~30 years at that point.

Five years later, during the gov't of Canadian PM Jean Chrétien (same one that cancelled the first EH101 order) it was decided that the SAR helicopters would now be replaced, but this time a scaled-down version of the EH101 SAR helicopter from the first order would be selected, and this time no local assembly. It was not until 2001 that the first replacement SAR helicopters actually arrived in Canada, by which point the CH-113 Labrador SAR helicopters were about 38 years old.

In 2004, it was finally decided that the by now 41 year old Sea King ASW helicopters really needed to be replaced. The successor gov't to Jean Chrétien under PM Paul Martin, selected the CH-148 Cyclone which is a military version of the Sikorsky S-92 for Canada. Deliveries were planned to start in 2009, at which point the Sea Kings would have been ~46 years old. Due to a number of issues with the design and production of the Canadian variant, deliveries of interim (i.e. functional but not full contract specifications at present) CH-148 Cyclones are planed to start this year and run until 2018, so that the still in service and aging Sea Kings can finally be retired. FOC is not anticipated until 2018, at the earliest.

Given some of the procurement decisions, it has seemed almost as though each new gov't goes to deliberately undo or make a different choice than their predecessor for no real reason other than to choose something different.

IIRC when a replacement for the Sea King was again being looked at in the 2002-2004 timeframe, the CH-148 Petrel version of the EH101 was looked at again by the Chrétien gov't, but was rejected in favour of the Sikorsky design, because it was Chrétien's predecessors in the Mulroney gov't what had originally wanted to go with the EH101 in the first place, which the Chrétien gov't had paid a penalty to cancel.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
I agree with what you're saying Tod, but I guess I'm just as likely to blame politics within the services for 'political' decisions as I am to blame parliamentarians. I don't know enough about the circumstances of the Canadian decision, but I'd wager that there were factions internally that wanted the project to fail. Parliamentarians don't like stories about defence screw ups - theirs of the oppositions - it distracts attention from issues that win votes. Those issues in NZ (and probably Canada) are very seldom defence related.
The parts issue for the CH-149 had nothing to do with politics within the military. It was all about Chrétien keeping the overall price as low as possible as to keep the unit cost near the price of the previously canceled Mulroney order back in 1991. It was damage control. The only reason the Cyclone was selected over the EH101 was to save Chrétien from further embarrassment.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Not to take the discussion too much further OT, since this is the RNZAF and not the RCAF discussion thread.

From what I have come across, Canada ordered two versions of the EH101 in 1987 to replace their SH-3/S-61 Sea King (local designation CH-124) ASW and CH-46 Labrador (local designation CH-113) SAR helicopters. Following the significant change in gov't after the 1993 election, the new gov't opted to cancel order placed by their immediate predecessors and instead retain the ASW and SAR helicopters that were in service at the time. IIRC this caused some concern and discontent because no helicopters were delivered, yet Canada still had to pay CAN$157 mil. in cancellation penalties, and the helicopters being retained had been in service for ~30 years at that point.

Five years later, during the gov't of Canadian PM Jean Chrétien (same one that cancelled the first EH101 order) it was decided that the SAR helicopters would now be replaced, but this time a scaled-down version of the EH101 SAR helicopter from the first order would be selected, and this time no local assembly. It was not until 2001 that the first replacement SAR helicopters actually arrived in Canada, by which point the CH-113 Labrador SAR helicopters were about 38 years old.

In 2004, it was finally decided that the by now 41 year old Sea King ASW helicopters really needed to be replaced. The successor gov't to Jean Chrétien under PM Paul Martin, selected the CH-148 Cyclone which is a military version of the Sikorsky S-92 for Canada. Deliveries were planned to start in 2009, at which point the Sea Kings would have been ~46 years old. Due to a number of issues with the design and production of the Canadian variant, deliveries of interim (i.e. functional but not full contract specifications at present) CH-148 Cyclones are planed to start this year and run until 2018, so that the still in service and aging Sea Kings can finally be retired. FOC is not anticipated until 2018, at the earliest.

Given some of the procurement decisions, it has seemed almost as though each new gov't goes to deliberately undo or make a different choice than their predecessor for no real reason other than to choose something different.

IIRC when a replacement for the Sea King was again being looked at in the 2002-2004 timeframe, the CH-148 Petrel version of the EH101 was looked at again by the Chrétien gov't, but was rejected in favour of the Sikorsky design, because it was Chrétien's predecessors in the Mulroney gov't what had originally wanted to go with the EH101 in the first place, which the Chrétien gov't had paid a penalty to cancel.
Yes well, we have had similar acts of political serendipity here that have caused contract cancellation fees to be paid because of opposing political views at election initiated changes of government. Or replacement programs being stalled or cancelled for political reasons due to a change of government.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Or replacement programmes being stalled or cancelled because of factions of one service knifing another service.
Your point is a valid issue and it likely exists in all countries. However, once a procurement need is decided upon internally by the military (after much in-fighting between various factions no doubt), the politicians have numerous ways of delaying or screwing up the procurement. Our CCV and SAR programs are perfect examples and I am sure others can site similar examples in their countries albeit with shorter timeframes.:(
 

Zero Alpha

New Member
I think you're right John.

If you define politics as the competition for ideas and resources it's easier to accept it's a fact of life.

One of the reasons I think defence projects get kicked around as much as they do is the extraordinary long decision cycles taking within the services. Many years from conceptualisation to execution creates perfect conditions for projects being derailed.
In an R&D environment projects with long gestations are are marginally more acceptable, but since most projects in NZ, Australia and Canada are closer to pure acquisition activity they should be executed much, much faster. I've had experience trying to shepherd major capital projects through corporates where executive teams change. My rule of thumb is that for every senior executive that changes the complexity of the decision making process is doubled.Throw changes at board level in there (or Cabinet for defence projects) and you're setting yourself up to fail.

Like Robert Watson-Watt said:

Give them the third-best to go on with; the second-best comes too late, [and] the best never comes.
 

htbrst

Active Member
Some news on a potential C-17 acquisition:

A report has come back from the Foreign Affairs and Defence select committee (who took the flight on the RAAF aircraft a few months ago.

Two new Boeing C-17s to cost NZDF $600m - Politics - NZ Herald News



In a report released last week, the committee said that the cost of two of the C-17s would be "a minimum of $600 million, with an operating cost of $20,000 per hour".

It said the C-17s would be a "desirable acquisition" and noted that there were only eight to 10 of the aircraft left for sale.


MPs on the committee sought advice on how money could be found to purchase the aircraft and whether it was practical to replace five Hercules with two Globemasters.

"We learned that the purchase has been provided for in the Defence Midpoint Rebalancing Review, and the possibility of making the funds available earlier is being considered," the report said.

Secretary of Defence Helene Quilter told the committee that any purchase of C-17s might not be a "complete replacement" for the Hercules and the two types of aircraft could possible operate side by side.
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
Some news on a potential C-17 acquisition:

A report has come back from the Foreign Affairs and Defence select committee (who took the flight on the RAAF aircraft a few months ago.

Two new Boeing C-17s to cost NZDF $600m - Politics - NZ Herald News
Hmmm, makes me cautiously optimistic... although 3 would be the sensible number, I think the reality is there won't be any support for an almost $1B spend for 3. At least the report pretty much states another type will be required to 'work alongside', which I expect would ultimately be a twin-engine type. ....fingers crossed!
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Some news on a potential C-17 acquisition:

A report has come back from the Foreign Affairs and Defence select committee (who took the flight on the RAAF aircraft a few months ago.

Two new Boeing C-17s to cost NZDF $600m - Politics - NZ Herald News
Full text of the C17 Section of the Foreign Affairs and Defence Select Committee 2013/14 Annual review of the Ministry of Defence and the New Zealand Defence Force:
Boeing C17 aircraft
We recently travelled on an Australian Defence Force Boeing C17 aircraft and were impressed by the aircraft and its capabilities. On that occasion we were told that the cost of two C17 aircraft would be a minimum of $600 million, with an operating cost of $20,000 per hour. We asked how the money could be found for this desirable acquisition, and whether replacing five Hercules C-130 aircraft with two C17 aircraft would work in a practical sense. We heard that there is a project in the defence capability plan to consider strategic airlift needs, and replacement of the Hercules C-130 and Boeing 757 aircraft; there is a need to provide air support to operations in Antarctica, and there are only eight to ten C17 aircraft left to purchase. We learned that the purchase has been provided for in the Defence Midpoint Rebalancing Review, and the possibility of making the funds available
earlier is being considered.

At present the Ministry of Defence is analysing information on the price and availability of the aircraft from Boeing, and working with the Australian Defence Force to determine how some of the operating costs could be offset. The C17 aircraft would be very desirable for the provision of disaster relief and humanitarian assistance in the Pacific, and contributing to the joint logistics pool for operations in Antarctica. The Secretary of Defence does not consider that the purchase of any C17 aircraft would necessarily provide a complete replacement for the Hercules aircraft, and suggested they could operate side by side.
The report is a pdf file.
 

Zero Alpha

New Member
What the report isn't saying directly, but is saying in its subtext, is that the parties that are members of the committee (presumably except NZ first) are giving a signal to government that such a project would have broad multi-party consensus. That's half the battle.
 

Gracie1234

Well-Known Member
White paper should be finished in Nov

Just read this online.
Brownlee said Mark's response was "a bit knee jerk, and not really all that informed, with all due respect."

It was a matter of determining what configuration of aircraft was best for the NZDF, and that work was being done at the moment.

"And it will be part of the White Paper - it's absurd to suggest it wouldn't be."

The terms of reference for the White Paper would go to Cabinet shortly, but the internal process was "well underway" because Cabinet had previously agreed to it.

Brownlee expected the whole exercise to be completed in late November.
 

40 deg south

Well-Known Member
Just read this online.
Brownlee said Mark's response was "a bit knee jerk, and not really all that informed, with all due respect."

It was a matter of determining what configuration of aircraft was best for the NZDF, and that work was being done at the moment.

"And it will be part of the White Paper - it's absurd to suggest it wouldn't be."

The terms of reference for the White Paper would go to Cabinet shortly, but the internal process was "well underway" because Cabinet had previously agreed to it.

Brownlee expected the whole exercise to be completed in late November.
The link to the Stuff piece is here:
Defence Force could spend $600m on two new planes | Stuff.co.nz

Brownlee makes one factual error in it, adding Singapore to a list of allies that fly the C-17. That would be news to them!

From Brownlee's comments at the close of the article, it sounds as if no acquisition will be made before the release of the White Paper scheduled for late November. I'm not sure how many of the white tail C-17s will be available at that point.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Just read this online.
Brownlee said Mark's response was "a bit knee jerk, and not really all that informed, with all due respect."

It was a matter of determining what configuration of aircraft was best for the NZDF, and that work was being done at the moment.

"And it will be part of the White Paper - it's absurd to suggest it wouldn't be."

The terms of reference for the White Paper would go to Cabinet shortly, but the internal process was "well underway" because Cabinet had previously agreed to it.

Brownlee expected the whole exercise to be completed in late November.
Rhe release of the report might be in November but the goverment would/ will have preliminary advice on what they recommend. I imagine Boeing will have some sort of mechanism in place to advice goverments across the globe of remaing unsold airframes so if an early buy was necessary
 

Zero Alpha

New Member
Rhe release of the report might be in November but the goverment would/ will have preliminary advice on what they recommend. I imagine Boeing will have some sort of mechanism in place to advice goverments across the globe of remaing unsold airframes so if an early buy was necessary
It's an interesting comment from Brownlee.

With the mid-point rebalancing review completed, I'm curious about what the white paper is considering from a capability perspective. I may very well be reading too much in to it, but if the white paper changes some of the geopolitical planning assumptions, it is possible some of the costed options as part of the DMRR may be put on the table as necessary within a new framework.

I don't think anyone could rule out the possibility that Australia's delay deciding on their final 2-aicraft option may be because of discussions with NZ. Combined capability may mean they choose to invest elsewhere.
 

htbrst

Active Member
It's an interesting comment from Brownlee.

With the mid-point rebalancing review completed, I'm curious about what the white paper is considering from a capability perspective. I may very well be reading too much in to it, but if the white paper changes some of the geopolitical planning assumptions, it is possible some of the costed options as part of the DMRR may be put on the table as necessary within a new framework.

I don't think anyone could rule out the possibility that Australia's delay deciding on their final 2-aicraft option may be because of discussions with NZ. Combined capability may mean they choose to invest elsewhere.
Agreed, and seeing just what additional infrastructure will be available to support them in Australia for maintenance, training etc

I suspect they will be wanting to have the very last two constructed to push the purchase out as long as possible politically so that it doesn't leave a $600 million hole in the current drive to get back to a budget surplus.

As the exchange rate is so high vs the US Dollar (and Euro for that matter) its not a bad time necessarily to be making such a big purchase otherwise
 

t68

Well-Known Member
I don't think anyone could rule out the possibility that Australia's delay deciding on their final 2-aicraft option may be because of discussions with NZ. Combined capability may mean they choose to invest elsewhere.

Agree it may have an influence but it will be a guide only, as these will be the last it will come down to number crunching for the goverment, it they can fit it in they will as long term more numbers is actually cheaper when spreading out aircraft hours.
 

Zero Alpha

New Member
I suspect they will be wanting to have the very last two constructed to push the purchase out as long as possible politically so that it doesn't leave a $600 million hole in the current drive to get back to a budget surplus.

As the exchange rate is so high vs the US Dollar (and Euro for that matter) its not a bad time necessarily to be making such a big purchase otherwise
The $600M or so won't hit opex budgets, so it won't factor in the surplus. It will make the balance of payment figures for whatever quarter the transaction goes through nasty though.

The exchange rate certainly helps. It wasn't that long ago that capability plans were assuming 50 cents to the USD for capital budgeting purposes.
 

kiwipatriot69

Active Member
C17 Purchase

Well, given Nz Herald qouted $600 million for two C17, and they quoted in the airbus article Nz Govt only allocated $1000 million to replace all of the hercs' and the 757, either they allocate a lot more funds, or we are going to end up with either a mix of new Hercules C130j , 4+ 2 C17 or gamble and buy 4 C130j+ 3 A400M from Airbus, as replacing the hercules with new J models would still mean transport issues with our heavy trucks,armour,Nh90. Can RNZAF charter VIP role? .
 
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