Royal Netherlands Navy

[Redlands18]

They've got the Canadian and Kiwi disease, that's wot.

Really bad, in 1990 their Frigate Fleet was 50% bigger then the RANs DDG/FF Fleet, 2xTromp, 10xKortenaar, 2xvan Heemskercks all under 15yo and 8 Doormans under construction by 2007 they where down to the current 6 ships. They went from a mid level NATO Navy to a lightweight in 15 years.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

They've got the Canadian and Kiwi disease, that's wot.

I think it's a worldwide problem....incompetent, corrupt and narrow minded politicians who destroy their own armed forces.
And what Redland18 already said, it is just a disgrace what they have done to the navy, army and airforce.

 

[walter]

well to be fair we just got an 4 billion anual increase for defence in the Netherlands,offcourse too late,but better late then never.

Also the plan is to get the bigger and better version of the VMF replacement(M class replacement),since also Belgium has said to have/put more money in this project.

The sub replacement program is offcourse a example off incompetance,and should have been done waay quicker

 

[Redlands18]

Really bad, in 1990 their Frigate Fleet was 50% bigger then the RANs DDG/FF Fleet, 2xTromp, 10xKortenaar, 2xvan Heemskercks all under 15yo and 8 Doormans under construction,* by 2007 they where down to the current 6 ships. They went from a mid level NATO Navy to a lightweight in 15 years.

Oh B*****r, Grammar fail, should have been an Apostrophe after construction* of course.

 

[John Fedup]

I think it's a worldwide problem....incompetent, corrupt and narrow minded politicians who destroy their own armed forces.
And what Redland18 already said, it is just a disgrace what they have done to the navy, army and airforce.

WRT defence spending by the West and many non-aligned nations, lots of dumb decisions. Canada and NZ have pollies that either can’t comprehend the declining geopolitical situation or simply don’t care. Also a significant number will value pork over defence spending to enhance their re-election chances. Both nations (especially Canada) are more than happy to leave all the heavy lifting to their more powerful neighbours.

 

[OldTex]

WRT defence spending by the West and many non-aligned nations, lots of dumb decisions. Canada and NZ have pollies that either can’t comprehend the declining geopolitical situation or simply don’t care. Also a significant number will value pork over defence spending to enhance their re-election chances. Both nations (especially Canada) are more than happy to leave all the heavy lifting to their more powerful neighbours.

Definitely for the majority of Western politicians (admittedly not all) they are more likely to be incompetent, ill-advised and short-sighted rather than corrupt. Very few politicians take a view further than their next election so short term 'wins' (such as education, health, employment and social security) are more important (for their re-election prospects) than decisions that may bear fruit in 4-5 elections time. It is the public who need to remind their politicians of the importance of defence.

 

[John Fedup]

Definitely for the majority of Western politicians (admittedly not all) they are more likely to be incompetent, ill-advised and short-sighted rather than corrupt. Very few politicians take a view further than their next election so short term 'wins' (such as education, health, employment and social security) are more important (for their re-election prospects) than decisions that may bear fruit in 4-5 elections time. It is the public who need to remind their politicians of the importance of defence.

Ultimately, it is the public’s fault. They want more social benefits which is why they are enticed by the pork pollies offer. In Canada, the public is mostly ignorant about the geopolitical situation but I also fear quite a few here just don’t care.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Two of the four air defense and command frigates (LCF) will be equipped with improved air defense missiles and technologies: Evolved Sea Sparrow Missile (ESSM) Block 2 missiles and APAR 2. The original plan was to upgrade all four frigates with ESSM in 2018, but the plan was changed for various reasons, with the most important one the limited funds.

Luchtverdediging van slechts helft LC-fregatten wordt gemoderniseerd

APAR blijkt duurder en schepen varen langer door

marineschepen.nl

Netherlands to upgrade only 2 LCF frigates with ESSM Block 2 - Naval News

De Zeven Provinciën class frigates of the Royal Dutch Navy upgrade plan including the ESSM Block 2 air defense system had been changed.

www.navalnews.com

 

[Toptob]

So they released the defensienota 2022 and as usual it's an unbelievable collection of jargon and gobbledygook that most defense watchers can't make heads or tails out of...

But Jaime Karreman does a decent job explaining what it might mean for the navy.

First about 500 mln Euros will go towards new "arbeidsvoorwaarden", basically new agreements with the military labor unions. Not very sexy but long overdue, and hopefully this will go some way towards resolving some of the personnel shortages.

Second is the intention to purchase cruise missiles and weapons for ballistic missile defense. It doesn't state which systems, but it is well known for a long time that the navy has a wish to equip the LCF's with the Tomahawk and SM-3's.

Third is the stated intent to equip submarines with cruise missiles. Not for the current ones but their replacements, so that's at least a decade away. Although they are currently still selecting that replacement so maybe they could add a VLS? I doubt it, but it would be an interesting development.

Fourth, the Korps Mariniers will get organic fire support, tactical air defense and unmanned systems... Oh and money for spare parts, supplies and ammunition (about time)

Fifth, the planned replacement of 10 support ships will now consist of 8 ships in stead of the planned 10, so the fleet is shrinking.

And finally in the future the current 2 LPD's and 4 OPV will be replaced by a single class of ship that will perform all tasks these two classes currently perform. This has been the point around which the most speculation has revolved. Maybe they'll do something interesting and build something like a USV or small craft mothership.

Earlier it was already reported that the M-class replacement ships would be getting bigger.

 

[Toptob]

Eerste onderwaterspoiler geleverd voor Zr.Ms. Groningen

The hull vane for the OPV Zr.Ms. Groningen that had to be redesigned has been delivered to the Navy and will be installed on the ship in early 2023. I knew this project was being worked on, but I never really payed attention to it, thinking it was just some fancy shmancy new mcguffin. And it is, but they're making some pretty radical claims!

The company Hullvane says their system can; reduce fuel consumption, improve stability and seakeeping and increase the top speed of a vessel!

In the article above, they claim that for the Holland class they can reduce fuel consumption up to 13%. And it stabilizes the ship making helicopter landings easier, and by reducing the wake or waves they claim it makes the ship harder to detect... whatever that means!?! These are some big claims, but they tested it at the MARIN institute and those guys know what they're doing so there must be something in it.

The guy from Hullvane explains a bit how it works in the article, but it's a bit complicated in Dutch. But something about it being like a spoiler on a car but upside down and under water. But then he's talking about sailing and how a the wind coming from the side creates a force forward.

But anyway, my biggest question is, would this make a ship harder to detect for let's say... a sonar?

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Eerste onderwaterspoiler geleverd voor Zr.Ms. Groningen

The hull vane for the OPV Zr.Ms. Groningen that had to be redesigned has been delivered to the Navy and will be installed on the ship in early 2023. I knew this project was being worked on, but I never really payed attention to it, thinking it was just some fancy shmancy new mcguffin. And it is, but they're making some pretty radical claims!

The company Hullvane says their system can; reduce fuel consumption, improve stability and seakeeping and increase the top speed of a vessel!

In the article above, they claim that for the Holland class they can reduce fuel consumption up to 13%. And it stabilizes the ship making helicopter landings easier, and by reducing the wake or waves they claim it makes the ship harder to detect... whatever that means!?! These are some big claims, but they tested it at the MARIN institute and those guys know what they're doing so there must be something in it.

The guy from Hullvane explains a bit how it works in the article, but it's a bit complicated in Dutch. But something about it being like a spoiler on a car but upside down and under water. But then he's talking about sailing and how a the wind coming from the side creates a force forward.

But anyway, my biggest question is, would this make a ship harder to detect for let's say... a sonar?

Less waterturbulence means also less noise. But i also expect that less boeggolf and hekgolf makes the ships less visually detectable from aircrafts and military observation satellites.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Naval Group laid yesterday the keel of the first mijnenbestrijdingsvaartuig / mine countermeasure mothership for the Koninklijke Marine / Royal Netherlands Navy. The first vessel will get the name Zr.Ms.Vlissingen with boegnummer M840, because of this the Alkmaarklasse will be officially replaced by the Vlissingenklasse. Sadly this class of minehunters will not be build in Vlissingen by Koninklijke Schelde but by Naval Group.

Kership, a joint venture between Naval Group and Piriou, is in charge of the production of the twelve platforms which are assembled in Concarneau and Lanester. They will be then all armed afloat by Piriou in Concarneau. Naval Group, as overall architect and prime contractor, is responsible for the design of the ships, the overall integration, and the testing and commissioning of the mission system (combat system and mine countermeasures system). ECA Group, as co-contractor, is in charge of the unmanned drones’ system. The drones will be produced in ECA Group factory (Ostend, Belgium). The maintenance of the ships will be carried out in Belgium in close collaboration between the Belgian Navy and Naval Group Belgium, with the assistance of its partner Flanders Ship Repair. So there is zero participation of the Netherlands in this program.

With a length of more than 82 m and a beam of 17 m, the ships will get a displacement of 2800 ton, heavier than some frigate classes.

The Zr.Ms. Vlissingen M840 is the second of twelve mine countermeasure platforms of the Belgian-Dutch rMCM program, six for each country, after the Oostende M940 for the Marinecomponent/Belgian Navy.
The first delivery is scheduled for the end of 2024 in Zeebrugge, Belgium. Deliveries will then be staggered until 2030.

Kiel van nieuw mijnenbestrijdingsvaartuig Vlissingen gelegd - eerste van nieuwe klasse

Schip wordt in Frankrijk gebouwd

marineschepen.nl

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

A video report of the three candidates for the replacement of the Walrusklasse.

- 00:37 - Saab & Damen A26 NL submarine
- 03:41 - Naval Group conventional Barracuda submarine
- 07:19 - TKMS Type 212CD E submarine

The A26 and Barracuda designs are more mature than the new enlarged Type 212CD variant, but ofcourse i hope the Kockums A26 design will be selected.

 

[Redlands18]

A video report of the three candidates for the replacement of the Walrusklasse.

- 00:37 - Saab & Damen A26 NL submarine
- 03:41 - Naval Group conventional Barracuda submarine
- 07:19 - TKMS Type 212CD E submarine

The A26 and Barracuda designs are more mature than the new enlarged Type 212CD variant, but ofcourse i hope the Kockums A26 design will be selected.

We seem to be seeing a new generation of Submarine designs. The A26 has an interesting new Sail design, either for Surfaced stealth or more streamlined, the Barracuda is sticking with the Pump Jet as per the Attack design. And the Type 212 is enclosed in a outer hull of an unusual shape and at 10m is actually wider then a Virginia but 42m shorter.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

The Zr.Ms. Karel Doorman (A-833) has been in service since 2014 and a midlife upgrade was originally planned for 2027 – 2028. But this MLU-program will now be split and carried out during two planned maintenance periods in 2025 and 2032, which will reduce the amount of time the ship needs to be in dry dock.

Dutch LPD Karel Doorman to receive 76mm gun and RAM upgrade - Naval News

The Royal Netherlands Navy's joint support ship (LPD), HNLMS Karel Doorman (A-833), will be upgraded with a 76mm gun and a RIM-116 Rolling Airframe Missile (RAM)

www.navalnews.com

Another reason for splitting up the MLU-program is because not all to be installed components are finished with the development and testing. The new Pharos-radar from Hollandse Signaalapparaten will be ready in 2028 for example.

De Karel Doorman krijgt kanon en raketten

Ter vervanging van de Goalkeepers

marineschepen.nl

 

[swerve]

Hollandse Signaalapparaten = Thales Nederland nowadays.

 

[Stampede]

The Zr.Ms. Karel Doorman (A-833) has been in service since 2014 and a midlife upgrade was originally planned for 2027 – 2028. But this MLU-program will now be split and carried out during two planned maintenance periods in 2025 and 2032, which will reduce the amount of time the ship needs to be in dry dock.

Dutch LPD Karel Doorman to receive 76mm gun and RAM upgrade - Naval News

The Royal Netherlands Navy's joint support ship (LPD), HNLMS Karel Doorman (A-833), will be upgraded with a 76mm gun and a RIM-116 Rolling Airframe Missile (RAM)

www.navalnews.com

Another reason for splitting up the MLU-program is because not all to be installed components are finished with the development and testing. The new Pharos-radar from Hollandse Signaalapparaten will be ready in 2028 for example.

De Karel Doorman krijgt kanon en raketten

Ter vervanging van de Goalkeepers

marineschepen.nl

If I'm correct ,The Karel Doorman will be the first Dutch ship to carry the Rolling Airframe Missile.
Given Goalkeeper was dropped, I have to wonder if the rest of their fleet will lose their 30 mm CIWS in favour of a missile solution.
The 76 mm is also a very interesting selection. Will it's guided munition be capable of dealing with fast moving threats of just the slower stuff.

Hmmmm

Are you watching RAN


Cheers S

 

[Meriv90]

Define Fast moving? As subsonic? Yes it does, DART even if just now it is getting delivered, in 2010 intercepted the Mirach drones that are 0.85 mach. I think during the decade they improved its abilities.

As in Hypersonic? Probably it is the main reason why we use the 76mm and increased their numbers (our DDX will have 3 plus a 127mm) to engage Hypersonic missiles at greater distance so that when they get destroyed you don't get it by the debris cone.

But IMHO the future thanks to BAE and not OTO is in 5inch/127mm thanks to the Kingfisher concepts.

 

[Stampede]

Define Fast moving? As subsonic? Yes it does, DART even if just now it is getting delivered, in 2010 intercepted the Mirach drones that are 0.85 mach. I think during the decade they improved its abilities.

As in Hypersonic? Probably it is the main reason why we use the 76mm and increased their numbers (our DDX will have 3 plus a 127mm) to engage Hypersonic missiles at greater distance so that when they get destroyed you don't get it by the debris cone.

But IMHO the future thanks to BAE and not OTO is in 5inch/127mm thanks to the Kingfisher concepts.

Good question.

Probably no solid answer in the public arena but it would be interesting to know what the 76mm can actually deal with.
Certainly a popular calibre to deal with a range of contingency in the 70 / 80 and 90s.
Not as popular in recent decades but if the guided munitions are as good as speculated it has truly reinvented itself as a good all rounder to cover a lot of scenarios in a relatively small and light weight package.
Most impressive.
The Dutch know a thing or two about ships so I'm confident they've adopted it for a reason.

Cheers S

 

[Meriv90]

I already posted it in the past so i hope the mods don't consider this a promotion purpouse, after all as i wrote IMHO the future is in the 127mm that will allow a plethora way bigger of uses (not only the classic NGFS or AA, but also Sonobuoys, Decoys, Mini Deep Charges) and half of them are BAE concepts.

The problem that financing in Italy it is anemic and just few days ago the first darts got into service

I like the cannons because i feel we are progressing more and more towards silver bullets, and silver bullets (F-35,60ton tanks , etc... etc...) even if logic feel like a lack of resilience. So cannons give me the impression of efficiency and cost reduction that also means resilience.