Royal Canadian Navy Discussions and updates

Underway

Underway

Active Member
Sender said:
Every post I've seen in reputable Canadian defence forums points to a foreign build, but with a robust build up of domestic maintenance capabilities. These 12 subs are referred to often as "interim", with the long-term (post 2050) goal the acquisition of nuclear boats, or possibly some other technology that allows for long-distance high-speed submerged travel. There is nothing new here. This is a capability that the RCN wants (and has wanted for 40 years), but the middle step of developing a largish professional submarine cadre and fleet was felt to be more reachable than jumping straight into nuclear. Also much more affordable.
Click to expand...
Interim. Like Asterix is interim, and is going past year 10 now. This idea of nuclear subs is one that won't die despite the fact its been debunked multiple times. There is no long term goal for nuclear subs.
 
John Fedup

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Underway said:
Interim. Like Asterix is interim, and is going past year 10 now. This idea of nuclear subs is one that won't die despite the fact its been debunked multiple times. There is no long term goal for nuclear subs.
Click to expand...
There is no immediate SSN plan but post 2050-60 and assuming the world and Canada still exist, there will be a need unless super batteries offering high escape speeds and 4-5 weeks between recharge happen. High sped endurance underwater operations will be a consequence of mega advances in missile technology, IMHO.
 
Underway

Underway

Active Member
John Fedup said:
There is no immediate SSN plan but post 2050-60 and assuming the world and Canada still exist, there will be a need unless super batteries offering high escape speeds and 4-5 weeks between recharge happen. High sped endurance underwater operations will be a consequence of mega advances in missile technology, IMHO.
Click to expand...
Post 2050 and 2060 there will only be a seasonal icecap and ships will be able to sail freely across the Arctic ocean most of the time. And then the biggest argument for nuke boats is gone. As well the sensors and processing for underwater contacts will likely be so advanced that submarines might not even have the advantage of stealth anymore, thus not needing submarines at all. (of course neither of us know if any of this makes any sense, as the timelines involved are 25 years away and we're just playing at being a futurist).
 
John Fedup

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Underway said:
Post 2050 and 2060 there will only be a seasonal icecap and ships will be able to sail freely across the Arctic ocean most of the time. And then the biggest argument for nuke boats is gone. As well the sensors and processing for underwater contacts will likely be so advanced that submarines might not even have the advantage of stealth anymore, thus not needing submarines at all. (of course neither of us know if any of this makes any sense, as the timelines involved are 25 years away and we're just playing at being a futurist).
Click to expand...
Agree about the timeline and possible under water sensor advances but missile advances will be even more significant. There is still advantageous to have a sub with high speed and endurance underwater regardless of the disappearing icecap… just my two cents though.
 
John Fedup

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Sender said:
Lack of spare parts does not necessarily indicate an issue with the helicopter if the operator has been cheaping out on maintaining adequate stores.
Click to expand...
Cyclone is an orphan helicopter and although it is an S-92 derivative, maintaining adequate stores for the CH-148 from the vendor, WTF knows. It was a paper design in the mid 1990s, should never have been selected in the first place.
 
spoz

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
To be fair, at the time it looked like Canada was not likely to be the only customer. Sikorsky were pushing it hard as the logical replacement for the SH-60 series. As it turned out, none of their other potential customers agreed.
 
John Fedup

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
spoz said:
To be fair, at the time it looked like Canada was not likely to be the only customer. Sikorsky were pushing it hard as the logical replacement for the SH-60 series. As it turned out, none of their other potential customers agreed.
Click to expand...
The project was troubled from day one as it was a paper design. After significant delays, there was a review IIRC and the Harper government stuck with it throwing more money into its development and no other customers were on the radar. The cancelled EH101 was the correct choice. Canada should have followed the “fly before you buy” rule.
 
spoz

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Agreed. We also evaluated it as a Sea King replacement but (effectively) decided the risk was too great, and we didn’t in any case think we could get a procurement through Government. But at the time you committed, Sikorsky at least would have thought we were in play; the Marine 1 replacement, which would have been a very similar helicopter in most area; India and a number of other possibles were out there. But Canada was always going to be the lead customer.

The 101 had its issues - the CO of the RN intro to service team told me at the time that no two of his aircraft had anything like the same configuration, and they were dealing with a number of quite significant problems on a daily basis. But overall it would have been a much better choice. And it was, of course, the first t choice until other issues intervened..
 
Last edited:
John Fedup

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
@spoz The SAR requirement was fulfilled with a demilitarised version of the EH101 in the mid 1990s. There were parts supply issues but for the most part they have been ok. The situation was greatly improved by the acquisition of the 7 AH101s from the cancelled Marine 1 program for $164 million, a really good deal.
 
CorvetteCrunch

CorvetteCrunch

Member
It is a classic Canadian procurement boondoggle to end up stuck with an orphan platform, I can only hope we'll learn our lesson and not jump into the same situation again so readily.
 
John Fedup

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
CorvetteCrunch said:
It is a classic Canadian procurement boondoggle to end up stuck with an orphan platform, I can only hope we'll learn our lesson and not jump into the same situation again so readily.
Click to expand...
It wasn't a jump in situation!!! The Martin government selected the paper cyclone to save embarrassment for Chretien (who cancelled the EH101). Considering how the sack of $hit Chretien treated Martin, I can't understand why he didn't stick it to Chretien with a new EH101 contract for the RCAF/RCN. I can only conclude massive pressure from the Quebec wing of the Liberal party.
 
S

shadow99

Member
Go Bold with Joetey Attariwala takes a dive on HMCS Corner Brook. One of his better videos, showing what it takes to operate a sub.


I'm curious how HMCS Corner Brooks operation compares to the Collins Class subs.
 
Underway

Underway

Active Member
CorvetteCrunch said:
It is a classic Canadian procurement boondoggle to end up stuck with an orphan platform, I can only hope we'll learn our lesson and not jump into the same situation again so readily.
Click to expand...
The airforce certainly has made better recent choices since then. Chinook, C17, Herc J, P8, MQ-9 Reaper. Kingfisher is not a good example though, that's an old school screwup.

F35 under review is annoying but I expect we'll stay the course on that. The AEW&C program was looking like a Wedgetail lock, but with the US cancelling their own order, and some good non-US options out there, one of the three Bombardier 6500 series AEW aircraft might make the cut (Global Eye from Saab, L3 version that Korea has built and another one from Italy which I can't remember).
 
S

swerve

Super Moderator
The Italian Global 6500 project isn't AEW, but a "Maritime Multi-Mission Aircraft", with the ATOS mission system, & the "Italian" AESA radar is the Osprey, designed & made in Scotland. ;) Leonardo's radar business has a large UK component.

Leonardo and Bombardier Defense sign MoU to assess and target new opportunities in the global maritime MMA market

Canada's Global 6500 jet to feature advanced Italian AESA radar for maritime multi-mission role

Korea hasn't built an AEW aircraft. It operates four E-7, & is considering buying either more E-7, GlobalEye (SAAB & KAI), or an L3Harris/IAI/Korean Air offer, with an Elta radar on Global 6500.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top