Royal Canadian Navy Discussions and updates
- Thread starter stephen weist
- Start date
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
The NATO standards are Link 11, 16 and 22. CEC is as I understand it, integrated a step (or perhaps several steps) beyond what Link 11/16/22 are capable of.
Installing and integrating CEC onto an asset that has a different set of sensors and/or a different CMS from what CEC has already been integrated with could potentially be tricky.
Part of the difficulty I believe is that CEC includes a fire control component, in addition to the track data.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
The LM Canada CMS system is being offered for the T26.
FormerDirtDart
Well-Known Member
MV Asterix already hard at work for the RCN durning RIMPAC.. Have to say, they sure seem to have gotten her into service pretty damn fast. Especially for the RCN
From Twitter
There are three additional images attached to the tweet above. Didn't want to clutter the thread.
From Twitter
There are three additional images attached to the tweet above. Didn't want to clutter the thread.
What is there not to like about her? She seems to be everything the RCN needs and I find it hard to explain why the Can govt did not proceed with the second.MV Asterix already hard at work for the RCN durning RIMPAC.. Have to say, they sure seem to have gotten her into service pretty damn fast. Especially for the RCN
From Twitter
There are three additional images attached to the tweet above. Didn't want to clutter the thread.
What has the Berlin Class got which can't be replicated by Asterix?
The cost benefit of the type appears overwhelming.
Assail I agree, trouble is it's Canuck pollies and bureaucrats that we are talking about and it's a logical proposition. Those two concepts together are an oxymoron.
Redlands18
Well-Known Member
Anyone know what the Ship on her port side is? The Starboard ship is one of the 3 Chilean Navy Type 23sMV Asterix already hard at work for the RCN durning RIMPAC.. Have to say, they sure seem to have gotten her into service pretty damn fast. Especially for the RCN
From Twitter
There are three additional images attached to the tweet above. Didn't want to clutter the thread.
It's the Indian ship Sayahadi and the Chilean Ship Almirante Lynch.
Edit Read the Twitter Hashtag
t68
Well-Known Member
I believe the conversion cost are nearly as much as the RAN are paying for 2x new build Spain built ships
The Canadians are acquiring a capability and comparing costs is fraught with error, but in relative terms the Asterix was acquired with all propulsion machinery in situ and a hull already built. If she was expensive imagine the costs of starting from scratch.
As far as capability goes, I’ve done a quick wiki comparison between Asterix, Berlin and Cantabria, they are all about the same size, they can all reach 20 kts, they all carry a similar liquid load and the same dry load, Berlin slightly less. Their crew sizes/ accomodation are roughly similar and they all have a similar aviation capability.
To me the differences are like choosing between a GM or a Ford 6 cylinder 4 door sedan, they are all similar.
I know wiki is not the best source but it seems to me the Canadians are building, not converting for a political, not a capability reason, but that should not surprise anyone here as all countries suffer the same disease to some extent
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Exactly right on the political issue, Vancouver shipyards were promised the Berlins. Davie was lucky to get the conversion build (thanks to Admiral Norman). As for capability, I would like to think the Berlins will offer considerably more given the horrendous price. Too bad junior has no stones for a fight. The BC government is fighting against the trans mountain pipeline. No pipeline, no Berlins, works for me.
Can someone who knows then, tell us what additional capability the Berlin’s offer?
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
I would welcome information as well. The current project cost estimate is 3.4 billion which likely includes some infrastructure improvements for SeaSpan's facilities but nevertheless these AORs are UGLY-UBER expensive. I have not seen any specific enhancement features above and beyond what the German versions have. The "modified for the the RCN" bull$hit line is the GoC's definitive position on the ship's design. The official government page might as well be blank.
Joint Support Ship | Investing in Equipment | National Defence | Canadian Forces
Joint Support Ship | Investing in Equipment | National Defence | Canadian Forces
Novascotiaboy
Active Member
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Interesting information but it is a Davie data sheet. Nevertheless the Asterix is a success just on delivery alone. It seems to have all the capabilities needed. Again, there seems to be little information on what the RCN version of the Berlin will have above and beyond the Bonn.
The Asterix price compared to the Canadian Berlin has to be an apples to apples comparison. The Asterix is a conversion on an existing hull. IIRC, the new superstructure was built in Finland and attached in Quebec. How much would it cost to do a new complete hull and superstructure along with all new machinery at Davie versus SeaSpan is the real question. Politically, an all new AOR build in Quebec is impossible unless SeaSpan is awarded new work. If a second conversion is done, it frees up a ton of funding but what is the lifespan difference between these conversions and new builds? I have to admit that another 1-2 conversions would open up opportunities for other ships of interest like an additional heavy ice breaker and perhaps that GMAS concept design. The other consideration is should non-combat vessels even be built in Canada? Speciality ships like heavy icebreakers and naval warships, yes, build in Canada but given how competitive Asian shipyards are, the RN's decision on the Tide class is very appealing.
The Asterix price compared to the Canadian Berlin has to be an apples to apples comparison. The Asterix is a conversion on an existing hull. IIRC, the new superstructure was built in Finland and attached in Quebec. How much would it cost to do a new complete hull and superstructure along with all new machinery at Davie versus SeaSpan is the real question. Politically, an all new AOR build in Quebec is impossible unless SeaSpan is awarded new work. If a second conversion is done, it frees up a ton of funding but what is the lifespan difference between these conversions and new builds? I have to admit that another 1-2 conversions would open up opportunities for other ships of interest like an additional heavy ice breaker and perhaps that GMAS concept design. The other consideration is should non-combat vessels even be built in Canada? Speciality ships like heavy icebreakers and naval warships, yes, build in Canada but given how competitive Asian shipyards are, the RN's decision on the Tide class is very appealing.
t68
Well-Known Member
I'm not questioning the capability, I'm questioning the cost involved being spent on an interim capabilty if the government actually orders ships before they are due to be replaced with a purpose built ship especially when you compare the cost with the UK Tides being built in SK or the RAN 640m for two Spanish built ships
More information on Project Resolve – Canadian Naval Review
Thanks for that. Says it all.
It’s easy to be critical from afar but it seems like Trudeau should be thanking Adm Norman instead of prosecuting him. By any measure Project Resolve seems a success
t68
Well-Known Member
Appears it’s only a 10 years operating lease on her, by the article it’s about 6y, but John question to the whole sorry saga is how long can it viable operate compared to a new built ship which would be roughly 30/35 years for nearly the same money.
That’s a false supposition, Asterix was built in 2010 and only lightly used, she has been sitting at Davie for at least a couple of years so she is a “new” ship. The hulls and machinery of large commercial ships, if correctly maintained, have a very long life due to their plate thickness cf a warship so she has every potential to have a full and productive life.
Further the cost of conversion was borne by Davie, the ownership is theirs so any loss of capital value is their responsibility.
There is an option to purchase at lease expiry but all things considered it’s a great deal for the RCN