Royal Canadian Navy Discussions and updates

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
This is of course your opinion, based on nothing more than speculation. What complications exactly are added by having Irving as the Prime? There are a lot of myths being propagated by members of this forum about Irving owning the intellectual property, but that is not and never has been the case. The Government of Canada will own the intellectual property. End story. Also, I see no advantage to the Australian scheme of having a government owned yard (even if it is leased to the Prime) build its frigates, over having a privately run yard like Irving build the Canadian vessels.
It's not all about IP.

Unfortunately we have a very recent example in the RAN DDGs where Navantia, the designer, was not part of the AWD Alliance and the builder ASC had multiple problems extracting technical info, drawings etc in a timely manner to sustain the build schedule.
Others here were involved in that process and if you care to go back through the RAN thread you will see endless discussion on this subject so, this is not my opinion, it's based on recent experience.

The advantages of leasing the yard to the prime contractor and designer are simple, first, the Prime has sole responsibility for all aspects of the build and there is no leeway for blame shifting if problems occur.
Second, if the government owns the asset and the builder begins to gouge or fails in any way the government has the option to terminate the contract and lease the yard to another builder/designer.

I would be far more comfortable as a government knowing that there is a competitive urgency to complete the project and that there is no sole supplier for my navy.
I Believe that this is the rationale behind the T31e project in the U.K., an attempt to break the BAE Systems monopoly, my opinion naturally.
 
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John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Irving shipyard was the winner of a competition of several Canadian shipyard contenders.
What competition, Irving and SeaSpan were the only choices available when the ship building program was established. Quebec based Davie was in receivership. The GoC decided SeaSpan would build the non-combat vessels and Irving would build the CSC and AOPS. Had Team FREMM been risk takers, buying Davie may have been more advantageous than making an unsolicited bid on the CSC tender.
 

Dave Dunlop

New Member
Why?

I mean, are you absolutely trolling for attention here?
I am not "trolling" for attention as you say with my comments or opinions. My intentions are to create discussions on a "true" ASW Frigate that the Type 26 is, and I believe Australia will do no better than choosing this Frigate to replace it's fleet of Anzac Class. Australia seems to be on the precipice of doing just that if you have seen some of the latest news coming out recently. This does not mean that Canada will choose the Type 26 as well, but will significantly bolster it's chances later this year.
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I am not "trolling" for attention as you say with my comments or opinions. My intentions are to create discussions on a "true" ASW Frigate that the Type 26 is, and I believe Australia will do no better than choosing this Frigate to replace it's fleet of Anzac Class. Australia seems to be on the precipice of doing just that if you have seen some of the latest news coming out recently. This does not mean that Canada will choose the Type 26 as well, but will significantly bolster it's chances later this year.
Sorry that is utter tosh ...... your comments are spurious and simply generate angst. Throwing in unsubstanciated nonsense commentary does not add to the conversation and your self congratulatory “good conversation .... my work is done” did not add much either .... except to reinforce the point that you appear to be trolling.
 
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Dave Dunlop

New Member
Sorry that is utter tosh ...... your comments are spurious and simple generate angst. Throwing in unsubstanciated nonsense commentary doe not add to the conversation and your self congratulatory “good conversation .... my work is done” did not add much either .... except to reinforce the point that you appear to be trolling.
Sorry if I seem to "Angst" you, but your comments about my "unsubstanciated comments" are neither "here nor there". Please feel free to "Angst" me again. I can take it!
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Sorry if I seem to "Angst" you, but your comments about my "unsubstanciated comments" are neither "here nor there". Please feel free to "Angst" me again. I can take it!
You pull your head in and apologise to Alexsa. Your combative attitude is not welcome here. Either shape up or ship out. Consider this a final warning.
 

Meriv90

Active Member
What competition, Irving and SeaSpan were the only choices available when the ship building program was established. Quebec based Davie was in receivership. The GoC decided SeaSpan would build the non-combat vessels and Irving would build the CSC and AOPS. Had Team FREMM been risk takers, buying Davie may have been more advantageous than making an unsolicited bid on the CSC tender.
But wasnt it awarded also to Irving for Halifax electoral importance?

In which conditions is Davie now?
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
SeaSpan and Irving are both about political appeasement but were the only viable shipyards as well at the time of selection. Davie is back in operation but IMO, no Quebec shipyard should get naval work.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I suspect because some within Quebec keep agitating for independence/sovereignty. IIRC there were two referendums, the first in 1980 and a second in 1995, which were about Quebec becoming a separate nation independent of Canada. There are still people and political groups which advocate for independence.

If Canada is to embark on a decades long national shipbuilding programme (15 ships can take 30 years to build if the right pace is set), would it be a wise decision to have the prime builder located in a province that might breakaway from the other nine provinces after another decade?

With the noxious rise of populism in places like the US, the UK (in Scotland especially) it unfortunately is not hard to imagine that certain socio-political groups would again push for independence. By not giving such important (and expensive) work and capability building to Quebec, the rest of Canada can potentially avoid needing to duplicate efforts if Quebec does decide to breakaway. Additionally, it has Canada (or the rest of it anyway) avoid building up the infrastructure of a competitor.
 

Meriv90

Active Member
But the other face of the coin is that you loose leverage to keep them close.

One thing is having to duplicate the infrastructure in the worst case another of loosing the whole region no?
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
But the other face of the coin is that you loose leverage to keep them close.

One thing is having to duplicate the infrastructure in the worst case another of loosing the whole region no?
Honestly, to really get into this sort of discussion gets into a number of legal, economic, and socio-political domestic Canadian arenas, which can get perilously OT and borderline appropriate for DT. I have this caveat, that I have a definite bias towards the rest of Canada, and away from any Quebecois independence/sovereignty movements. Part of this is due to my views of history, and part of this is due to family connections to Ontario and Manitoba specifically, as well as the UK and various current and former British colonies and/or Commonwealth nations.

As it is (and this can be a sore subject amongst Canadians) the Canadian gov't makes "equalization payments" to some provinces to "balance out" collected revenues, with a few provinces being net contributors (Alberta, BC, Newfoundland & Labrador, Sasketchwan) and others being net receivers (PEI, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, Manitoba, Quebec, Ontario). I believe the equalization payments having been occurring since confederation in one form or another, but the system was formalized in 1957. While Quebec, by virtue of it's large population (2nd largest province population in Canada), had the 2nd lowest per capita equalization payment for 2016-2017 at CAN$1,206 per person or CAN$10.03 bil. in total, that $10.03 bil. still exceeded the amount of equalization payments received by all the other provinces by CAN$2.18 bil. In effect, the rest of Canada has already, to one degree or another, been subsidizing Quebec and this has been going on for at least the past 40 years. It is also worth noting that ON, the other province with a large population which also receives equalization payments, received a total of only CAN$2.304 bil. or CAN$166 per capita in the 2016-2017 fiscal year, or only ~23% of the amount Quebec received.

Due to this, as well as Canadian gov't efforts to support Quebec-based companies like Bombardier, there seems to be sentiments that Canada is already doing quite a bit to subsidize Quebec and yet there remain elements within the French-speaking population of Quebec that seem to think it would be better if the province (majority are fluent in French/of French descent) was separate from the rest of the predominantly English-speaking and originally British settled Canada. As a side note, it seems that several of the First Nations tribes located within Quebec are not in favour of separating from the rest of Canada.

Historically, the province of Quebec had basically been the Colony of New France, which was captured by the British during the Seven Years War and France ceded the territory to Britain with the Treaty of Paris (1763). For me, that causes some issues since those who seem most interested in sovereignty are interested along the lines of a quasi ethno-nationality rationale, when the area had not experienced self-rule until it was granted so by the British gov't after joining the Canadian Confederation about a century after France yielded territory. Also, in addition to not having previously had self-rule prior to being conquerored by the British in 1759, the French settlers and their descendants were themselves just that, settlers and not native to the area, with Quebec City having been founded circa ~1608. With most of the rest of the world where there are or have been independence movements, especially within overall minority populations with areas of local majority, the populations have been within those specific areas for centuries if not thousands of years and have historically had a degree of self-rule.

With all that in mind, a decision to have more funding flow from federal coffers into a would-be breakaway province that would likely have problems functioning independently, and that would also likely have a different political and diplomatic outlook at odds with the remaining provinces of Canada, would seem unwise IMO.
 

Preceptor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Sorry if I seem to "Angst" you, but your comments about my "unsubstanciated comments" are neither "here nor there". Please feel free to "Angst" me again. I can take it!
Member Permanently Banned for repeated problematic posting behavior. In addition, the member requested to be terminated as a member of this forum in this post. Despite the poster's apparent position that they had not been combative, it is the view among a number of members that the poster has been combative, trolling, or otherwise making inflammatory comments. This behavior had continued despite comments, warnings and requirements put out by members of the Mod team. Examples include unsupported statements, as well as stated opinions that are neither supported or explained which were nearly as bad as the unsupported statements. Such behavior does nothing to advance discussion on the forum, as it doesn't convey what or why a poster has a particular position or opinion. Then to include explanations for reasoning which doesn't fit what is being stated (desire for air-defense oriented CMS like Aegis and an air-defense oriented phased array radar for shore bombardment) and similar commentary makes the conclusion that the posts were made simply to get a reaction from members. I see no reason or need to provide the now-banned member with an email address to which spam can be addressed to.
-Preceptor
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I think Thales is part of the LM BAE team so the APAR 2 is the pick.
Commentary cont'd from the RAN thread, as it is more appropriate for the RCN thread.

Thales was not on the list of the LockMart news release, so I personally doubt it. The listed companies are BAE Systems, CAE, Lockheed Martin Canada, L3 Technologies, MDA and Ultra Electronics.

Incidentally, the Alion submission for the CSC also does not list Thales as a participant, but the entry is based off the Dutch De Zeven Provinciën-class, which is fitted with the Thales APAR air/surface radar, however with Hensoldt Sensors (now owners of Kelvin Hughes IIRC) the offered radar might be the TRS-3D or TRS-4D radars.

Something which I also found curious is that L3 Technologies is listed as a participant with the Lockheed Martin Canada-led team, while the Alion Canada-led team includes L3 Technologies Canada... I am uncertain if this means that L3 is working with both teams, or if different divisions of L3 are in competition with each other.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Interesting about L3, not sure. Also, strange there is no Thales involvement as Canada provided money for R&D on APAR. A company in Ottawa, name escapes me, was involved in the development.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Interesting about L3, not sure. Also, strange there is no Thales involvement as Canada provided money for R&D on APAR. A company in Ottawa, name escapes me, was involved in the development.
I think you are referring to Sanmina who provided the t/r modules for APAR block 1 and APAR block 2.

It does seem that Thales has suggested using APAR for the CSC at a CANSEC (2017 IIRC) but it remains very much unclear whether or not Thales was doing so independently of the bidding teams or not. Given the lack of a specific tie-in to a CMS, and the importance of a CMS, I suspect that absent more direct participation as a partner on one of the bids, the Thales APAR would not be included.
 

matt00773

Member
I think you are referring to Sanmina who provided the t/r modules for APAR block 1 and APAR block 2.

It does seem that Thales has suggested using APAR for the CSC at a CANSEC (2017 IIRC) but it remains very much unclear whether or not Thales was doing so independently of the bidding teams or not. Given the lack of a specific tie-in to a CMS, and the importance of a CMS, I suspect that absent more direct participation as a partner on one of the bids, the Thales APAR would not be included.
There's a Sanmina brochure describing the APAR2 capability for CSC below. It certainly looks like the radar on the T26 CSC design...

http://www.sanmina.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/CDR_-State-of-the-Art-Radar_Sanmina.pdf
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Now I remember Sanmina from the Canadian Defence Review article. In any event it does seem Thales was unable to partner with any of the primes.
 
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