Royal Canadian Navy Discussions and updates

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I wonder if Australia will be offered the same deal.
Bids have been submitted for Sea5K and are being evaluated. Fincantieri may have made a similar offer, but as we don’t know the details of either the RFT or the evaluation process and criteria it’s impossible to know how such a “deal” might or might not have been offered or what it might contain; and there’s not much point in speculating. We’ll just have to wait for the evaluation to complete. IIRC, that and second pass are due in April.
 

Vulcan

Member
Well the FRA/ITA bid has been punted out due to non-compliance with the process - they sent the bid to the Government rather than through the competitive process

https://www.defensenews.com/industr...nes-naval-group-fincantieri-frigate-offering/

Interesting quote to pick out of that one was the FREMM bid leant more to the ASW-specific Italian variant than the French variant.

So you've got Type 26, F-105 or De Zeven Provincien still in it I think plus any not made public?
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
I believe TKMS and OMT were eligible to bid their respective designs, the F125 and the Iver Huitfeld. It will be interesting to see if they did actually bid. If the Type 26 proposal wins, I will be surprised if no lawsuits emerge.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
Well the FRA/ITA bid has been punted out due to non-compliance with the process - they sent the bid to the Government rather than through the competitive process

https://www.defensenews.com/industr...nes-naval-group-fincantieri-frigate-offering/

Interesting quote to pick out of that one was the FREMM bid leant more to the ASW-specific Italian variant than the French variant.

So you've got Type 26, F-105 or De Zeven Provincien still in it I think plus any not made public?
That is a big deal that the FREMM bid pretty much eliminated itself.

It sounds like their offer was more of an ultimatum. They were effectively saying do it our way or count us out.

What's the bet that this might have had something to do with the unnamed bidder who complained that the project had a "very high risk of failure".

Bidder urges overhaul of design tender in $60B navy frigate program - Politics - CBC News
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Yep, it was likely the same team that made the complaint. They understandably did not want to turn over IP information to Irving which is why they made this "Hail Mary" offer directly to the Canadian government. They were pi$$ed and decided there was no point in jumping through all the hoops in the tender process and wasting a $hitload on money on a no-win proposition. Again, it will be interesting to learn if there are other bids besides the vendors which have declared themselves.
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Yep, it was likely the same team that made the complaint. They understandably did not want to turn over IP information to Irving which is why they made this "Hail Mary" offer directly to the Canadian government. They were pi$$ed and decided there was no point in jumping through all the hoops in the tender process and wasting a $hitload on money on a no-win proposition. Again, it will be interesting to learn if there are other bids besides the vendors which have declared themselves.
Providing your IP to the build yard is a normal part of the process of building in a foreign country if you don’t have your own yard there: it’s being done in Aust, Singapore, Indonesia, Chile and many other places. And to get to build first you need to win, which means convincing the customer in your bid that your build program is achievable, and that in turn means you need to make arrangements of some sort with a local yard unless of course you plan a green fields approach.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
That is a big deal that the FREMM bid pretty much eliminated itself.

It sounds like their offer was more of an ultimatum. They were effectively saying do it our way or count us out.

What's the bet that this might have had something to do with the unnamed bidder who complained that the project had a "very high risk of failure".

Bidder urges overhaul of design tender in $60B navy frigate program - Politics - CBC News
I can't claim any expertise, but to my untutored eye, it does rather look as if this could be true -
"To the best of our knowledge, neither we, nor any other prequalified bidder, possesses an off-the-shelf ship design which could be modified to meet all of the [request for proposal] requirements without, in effect, becoming a new design with all of the risks that would stem from a massive redesign effort,"
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Providing your IP to the build yard is a normal part of the process of building in a foreign country if you don’t have your own yard there: it’s being done in Aust, Singapore, Indonesia, Chile and many other places. And to get to build first you need to win, which means convincing the customer in your bid that your build program is achievable, and that in turn means you need to make arrangements of some sort with a local yard unless of course you plan a green fields approach.
I don't know the normal relationships between designer and builder but I do know that in the case of the AWDs, the fact that they were not part of the Alliance caused problems until they were brought into the build process.

Is it not normal that a builder constructing a design which is not theirs usually forms a partnership with the designer? If that happened I would assume that all the IP issues would not arise and didn't all the problems of IP between Kockums and the ASC only begin after Kockums left?

If a company's IP is to be handed over without reservation to a foreign builder it must be bound by some really strict useage criteria but what happens when the build is complete? The builder has had use of that IP and has learned from it. How is this handled?
I can understand the designers concerns in the Canadian example so how is this all resolved?
Sorry spoz for all the questions but I know you have been involved in these matters.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
At least one (un-named) of the bidders for the CSC has supposedly expressed concern that the conditions for handing over IP would allow the Canadian yard to use it to compete with the firms supplying that IP.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
That’s my understanding as well and I don’t think it is unreasonable to assume that it was “Team Fremm.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
It is hard to fathom what was included in the RFP that FREMM found to be so unreasonable that they simply chose to walk away from a $60 billion project.

To me the requirement seems to be just for a fairly stock standard frigate but FREMM seem to think it would require a completely new design.

In the case of Australia the requirement was that FREMM be intergrated with Aegis, Ceafar and largely American sourced weaponary. This was considered no problem.

So what the hell is Canada asking for?

Sounds to me like the Joint Support ship fiasco all over again where they requested everything but in the end just settled for a fairly standard AOR ... albeit a very expensive one.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Hard to say WTF the RCN/Gov wants but you are right, JSS v2.0 is possible. Certainly anything to pump up the labour component is something the pollies will appreciate.
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
It is hard to fathom what was included in the RFP that FREMM found to be so unreasonable that they simply chose to walk away from a $60 billion project.

To me the requirement seems to be just for a fairly stock standard frigate but FREMM seem to think it would require a completely new design.

In the case of Australia the requirement was that FREMM be intergrated with Aegis, Ceafar and largely American sourced weaponary. This was considered no problem.

So what the hell is Canada asking for?

Sounds to me like the Joint Support ship fiasco all over again where they requested everything but in the end just settled for a fairly standard AOR ... albeit a very expensive one.
On the other hand Australia knew exactly what they wanted making it easier for the bidders to work around that, With Canada there is no such certainty on what they want so anything could happen after winning.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
I believe TKMS and OMT were eligible to bid their respective designs, the F125 and the Iver Huitfeld. It will be interesting to see if they did actually bid. If the Type 26 proposal wins, I will be surprised if no lawsuits emerge.
The deadline has passed and so far the only bidders I can confirm are Navantia, BAE and Damen.

Norway doesn't seem to have submitted the Fridtjof Nansen ... which surprises me. They once seemed like they were the forerunners.

Nothing about the Germans either.

They may have put in a bid and just kept it quiet ... but if not that must be a bit of a knock against the credibility of this competition.
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The deadline has passed and so far the only bidders I can confirm are Navantia, BAE and Damen.

Norway doesn't seem to have submitted the Fridtjof Nansen ... which surprises me. They once seemed like they were the forerunners.

Nothing about the Germans either.

They may have put in a bid and just kept it quiet ... but if not that must be a bit of a knock against the credibility of this competition.
The Norwegians couldn’t offer the Nansen - it was designed and built in Spain by Navantia; and it is now an old design, probably unbuildable. Navantia, and the world of frigate designs, has moved on.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
The Norwegians couldn’t offer the Nansen - it was designed and built in Spain by Navantia; and it is now an old design, probably unbuildable. Navantia, and the world of frigate designs, has moved on.
Oops ... I meant the Iver Huitfeldt ... I always get those ships mixed up for some reason.
 
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