Royal Canadian Navy Discussions and updates

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
I am not aware of any American attempt to derail SSNs (possibility some pressure not to buy French). Remember Canada was constrained economically by the high interest rates of the 1980s. Interest payments on Turbo Sr.'s debt was (and still is to a lesser extent) a huge portion of the federal government's annual expenditure. The Halifax program was underway as well so money simple wasn't available then.

If a SSN program were to be undertaken, the nuclear propulsion module should be manufactured in Ontario. I suppose other blocks could be done in Ontario as well. Politically, final assembly would probably have to be in Halifax. As BC and Quebec both opposed pipeline development, neither province should have any share. Besides, most of the antiNuke opposition comes from these two provinces.

Until Wynne and junior are kicked out of office, there is no chance of this happening.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Interesting piece of news. There has been numerous reports that the Type 26 is the RCN's preferred choice. Perhaps this Aegis integration is the reason. Also former officials of the Martin Liberal government (the same government that rejected BMD) have said it may be time to revisit that decision (including PM Martin himself). Tenders are due this month and a decision is estimated for spring 2018.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Gee, what a surprise, more whining from Quebec. The Quebec premier is hyping Davie's conversion of an already existing ship into an AOR and is demanding that Quebec's share of the National Ship Building be increased from its present 1%. A couple of points, Davie was bankrupt when the program decision was made and Davie's work on the Halifax program was inferior to Irving's work at their old St. John NB yard. However, my objection is no province that threatens to leave the Confederation should get 1 cent of business from any naval program.

Quebec Calls on Prime Minister to Reform NSS - Canadian Defence Review | Canadian Defence Review
 

Novascotiaboy

Active Member
John. I too am no lover of Quebec for the reason you state BUT and its a big but Davie has done what no other has been able to do. They are about to deliver a much needed capability on time and within the budget.....all at the expense of one Admiral.

Once Asterix enters service we will get a chance to see how it works out. When it does the government should immediately order a second. With a total of three hulls being available i would shit can the new Protectours and go with four Asterix. That would allow Seaspan to stay focused on the CCG fleet renewal including a second Polar icebreaker. In the future i would consider Davie for components of the CSC to be shipped to Irving to speed up the build process. The UK used this same process to fabricate the new carriers. Work is work so the IRB's are the same. I would also see that Davie be the yard to build the replacement subs. Nuclear attack boats using Ontarios nuclear industry. Win win for everyone.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Not sure if BC would be very happy giving 2 Berlin class ships to Québec in exchange for 1 extra icebreaker whose design isn't finalized as far as I know. As you say, having Davie build AORs might result in faster deliveries. Question is, will the RCN want more Asterixs over Berlins? Davie did a conversion not an entire 30k ton ship. As for them building modules for the CSC, no way, nada, never!!:D
 

Novascotiaboy

Active Member
The Berlins are tankers. Lots of big tanks and open spaces. Still a complex build but building two polar icebreakers would be far more work. I am willing to give Davie credit if the Asterix is what it looks like. The quality will be key. The superstructure was built in Finland so lets wait and hear about the hull work. If the workmanship is not there then I agree that they should get nothing to assist with CSC.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Sorry Nova, I was as unclear about my position about Davie. Even if their work is first rate on future Asterix builds, a province that continues to threaten separation should have zero input on pointy end military kit like the CSC program, period.
 

Novascotiaboy

Active Member
So should we pull the fighters out of Cold Lake and the infantry from Edmonton because Alberta has threatened to do the same thing?

I believe that Davie deserves a chance. This is a surprise comment from me as i have always been anti Quebec my entire adult life. But they have facilities. Good facilities and a strong workforce. They can be competitive and profitable.

The challenge i see for Seaspan is the cost of living in the lower mainland for its workers. For that reason I see trouble ahead.
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
Putting aside all of the politics about what gets build where and who by, I must say that I'm still staggered at the cost and timeframe for actually getting the two new build AOR's done and completed for the RCN (and many years after the existing AOR's have left service too).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Berlin Class was selected back in 2013, and with a budget of $2.6B, and yet the ships are still not scheduled for delivery to the RCN until 2021 and 2022.

Has steel actually started to be cut??

I've also followed the Asterix project, appears to be a good 'interim' solution, but still the cost of that one interim ship still staggers me too, ($700m for seven years, and that is just to lease the ship too).

The mind boggles!


As a counter balance, the two new Cantabria class AOR's being built in Spain for the RAN were selected in early 2016 by the Australian Government, and delivery is scheduled for 2019 and 2020 for the two ships.

In other words the Canadian Government made a decision on their two AOR's almost three years before the Australian Government, but the RAN will actually receive it's first ship two years before the RCN receives it first ship.

Again, the mind boggles!!


And as to cost (and yes it is hard to compare 'apples with apples' depending what is included in the 'project' cost or not (the C$ and the A$ are near enough to parity these days).

But the 'actual' cost of the two new ships for the RAN is $646.8m, see below:

http://www.defence.gov.au/spi/Docs/...iary Oil Replenishment Vessels - Navantia.pdf


Putting aside cost, and project cost too, I'm still staggered by the cost and the very long time it is taking for the RCN to get it's hands on it's two new purpose built AOR's (compared to the equivalent RAN project).

(PS, if I remember correctly too, the Berlin class beat the Cantabria class for the RCN, but the opposite occurred for the RAN, Cantabria beat Berlin, go figure!!).
 

Novascotiaboy

Active Member
One answer John.

IRB. industrial regional benefits.

Pork barrel politics. Jobs jobs jobs..

Reason it takes so long is not enough resources in people moving it along. Less people longer timelines. Increased cost for product.
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
One answer John.

IRB. industrial regional benefits.

Pork barrel politics. Jobs jobs jobs..

Reason it takes so long is not enough resources in people moving it along. Less people longer timelines. Increased cost for product.
Nova,

Mate, the pork barrel is well and truly alive and well here too, lots of fat wiped inside our barrel too (and I could go on about that here, but won't).

But I'm still gobsmacked as to how long (and the cost too), it is taking for Canadian industry to get started and build two (relatively simple) ships as the two AOR's for the RCN.

We are not talking about local construction of complex submarines, destroyers and frigates, we are talking about two relatively simple support ships.

Yes of course they have to be built and constructed to an appropriate level and standard, but compared to submarines, destroyers and frigates (which have complicated weapons and sensors to be integrated), AOR's are not exactly rocket science.

I feel for my Canuck cousins, if I was one of you I'd probably have a flat face by now after bashing into the wall, endlessly too!
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Nova,

Mate, the pork barrel is well and truly alive and well here too, lots of fat wiped inside our barrel too (and I could go on about that here, but won't).

But I'm still gobsmacked as to how long (and the cost too), it is taking for Canadian industry to get started and build two (relatively simple) ships as the two AOR's for the RCN.

We are not talking about local construction of complex submarines, destroyers and frigates, we are talking about two relatively simple support ships.

Yes of course they have to be built and constructed to an appropriate level and standard, but compared to submarines, destroyers and frigates (which have complicated weapons and sensors to be integrated), AOR's are not exactly rocket science.

I feel for my Canuck cousins, if I was one of you I'd probably have a flat face by now after bashing into the wall, endlessly too!
Cobber, with reference to defence procurement, if there's a hard way of doing something, the Canucks will find it. They just about make Indian defence procurement look good. I can't understand it myself either.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
So should we pull the fighters out of Cold Lake and the infantry from Edmonton because Alberta has threatened to do the same thing?
The day they hold a referendum to separate and then proclaim the right to have more until it passes (like Quebec), then yes, I would close Cold Lake down.

I believe that Davie deserves a chance. But they have facilities. Good facilities and a strong workforce. They can be competitive and profitable.
They had all this before and they still went into bankruptcy. As John Newman pointed out the price tag for Asterix seems pretty steep for a ship conversion.

The challenge i see for Seaspan is the cost of living in the lower mainland for its workers. For that reason I see trouble ahead.
Sadly, I have to agree with you on this. Regardless of where in Canada AORs are built, they will be over priced. This is why non-pointy end naval vessels should be built overseas. Just look at the deal the U.K. got on the 37K ton Tide class ships! We could get 4 Tides and still have money for a second heavy icebreaker to be built at SeaSpan.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Cobber, with reference to defence procurement, if there's a hard way of doing something, the Canucks will find it. They just about make Indian defence procurement look good. I can't understand it myself either.
Just about? When the Indian defence minister is having a bad day, he can watch an internet report on one of Canada's procurement horror shows and find instant relief.:D
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Putting aside all of the politics about what gets build where and who by, I must say that I'm still staggered at the cost and timeframe for actually getting the two new build AOR's done and completed for the RCN (and many years after the existing AOR's have left service too).
Me too.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Berlin Class was selected back in 2013, and with a budget of $2.6B, and yet the ships are still not scheduled for delivery to the RCN until 2021 and 2022.

Has steel actually started to be cut??
No, steel has not been cut yet. Worse, the 2.6 billion is now apparently not enough. This is confirmation, to me anyway, that this type of ship should be built offshore like the U.K. did. It is also confirmation that the BC lower mainland cost of living is a huge issue for SeaSpan as Nova also pointed out.

I've also followed the Asterix project, appears to be a good 'interim' solution, but still the cost of that one interim ship still staggers me too, ($700m for seven years, and that is just to lease the ship too).
Indeed, and just further confirmation that these vessels are best built outside of Canada.

In other words the Canadian Government made a decision on their two AOR's almost three years before the Australian Government, but the RAN will actually receive it's first ship two years before the RCN receives it first ship.
It will likely be 3-4 years after the RAN receives its first ship that the RCN gets one (if ever).:(
 

t68

Well-Known Member
....and frigging gong show continues. This is the third or fourth deadline extension for the CSC tender! I shutter to think how long the evaluation process will take, probably a century or two after the "second coming". Absolutely pathetic.:mad2

Submission of bids delayed again on Canadian Surface Combatant program | Ottawa Citizen

don't know if it was on your end as well, but when I clicked on the above link there happened to be an advert for Boeings commitment for Canada, well I could not help myself and click away.

Boeing: Boeing Canada - Backgrounder

Boeing in Canada












In March 1919, as part of the Canadian Exposition, William “Bill” Boeing and pilot Eddie Hubbard flew 60 letters from Vancouver, B.C., to Seattle, Wash., in Boeing’s C-700. It was the first international airmail to reach the United States. Since then, Canada has become a customer, a supplier and a partner to The Boeing Company in both the defense and commercial sectors.

Boeing Sites in Canada

As of 2016, Boeing directly employs approximately 2,000 highly skilled Canadian workers at the following locations:
Boeing Winnipeg in Manitoba.
Boeing Vancouver (formerly AeroInfo Systems) in Richmond, B.C.
Vancouver Labs, focused on data analytics–driven software solutions, in Vancouver, B.C.
Carmen Systems, a division of Jeppesen, located in Montreal, Québec.
Aviall (five customer service centers across Canada).
C-17 field service support in Trenton, Ontario.
Boeing Commercial Airplanes field service offices in Montreal; Toronto, Ontario; and Calgary, Alberta.
Medium-to-heavy-lift helicopter (MHLH) field service support in Petawawa, Ontario.
MHLH parts warehouse in Renfrew, Ontario.
Boeing Defense, Space & Security Global Sales & Marketing and MHLH program office in Ottawa, Ontario.

Boeing facilities in Canada produce parts, components, assemblies and software applications for all of the company’s commercial jets. Boeing Winnipeg, part of Boeing Fabrication, is the largest aerospace composite manufacturing center in Canada, employing nearly 1,500 people. The site helps to sustain Commercial Airplanes production by being responsible for 541 unique composite parts and assemblies for all current 7-series jetliners. Major products include the inner barrel, wing-body fairings, engine strut forward and aft fairings, and landing gear doors. This Boeing Fabrication business unit is a tier-1 supplier to the 787 Dreamliner, responsible for the engineering design and manufacturing of the wing-to-body fairing and main landing-gear doors for this breakthrough airplane.

In Richmond, B.C., Boeing Vancouver, part of the Boeing Commercial Aviation Services organization, is a leading provider of advanced maintenance software to the airline industry and has more than 200 employees. Boeing Vancouver’s Solutions Delivery group has been a key contributor to the design and development of several strategic Boeing products and services, including Maintenance Performance Toolbox and 787 GoldCare support solutions. Current programs include the delivery of mobile and cloud-based applications to support future airline maintenance solutions. Boeing Vancouver’s Defence group provides products and services to Boeing defense programs in Canada and directly to the Department of National Defence. Programs include a performance management system for the Canadian CH-47 program.

Vancouver Labs, which opened in September 2016, houses 50 data science, consulting and software development professionals. The labs are an extension of Boeing Vancouver’s existing facility in Richmond, B.C.

Approximately 40 employees of the Boeing subsidiary Jeppesen are based in Montreal, providing crew management and logistics software solutions for the aviation industry.

Boeing subsidiary Aviall has five customer service centers and stocking locations in Canada: Vancouver, Calgary, Winnipeg, Toronto and Montreal. Aviall provides global market coverage for general aviation, airlines and military customers and is the largest diversified aircraft parts distributor in the world. It provides industry-leading global operations services and support. Key accounts include Air Canada Express, Canadian Helicopters, StandardAero, WestJet, CanJet, Bombardier and Bell Helicopter.

Boeing Commercial Airplanes in Canada

More than a dozen Canadian carriers operate Boeing airplanes, including Canada’s leading airlines Air Canada and WestJet.

Air Canada, along with its low-cost carrier Rouge, operate the 787 Dreamliner, 767-300ER, 777-200LR and 777-300ER. Air Canada has 84 Boeing airplanes in its current fleet and 73 more on order, including 61 of Boeing’s newest family of single-aisle airplanes, the 737 MAX.

WestJet continues to grow with its all-Boeing fleet of Next-Generation 737-700s and -800s. The Calgary-based carrier added its 100th Next-Generation 737 to its fleet in late 2012 and in 2013 finalized an order for 65 737 MAX airplanes. WestJet also leases four 767 airplanes to fly to Hawaii and London. WestJet has ordered 65 of the 737 MAX planes from Boeing, including 25 of the smaller MAX 7 jets, with delivery starting in 2019. Deliveries of the remaining 40 orders of the larger 737 MAX 8 aircraft are to begin in 2017WestJet has ordered 65 of the 737 MAX planes from Boeing, including 25 of the smaller MAX 7 jets, with delivery starting in 2019. Deliveries of the remaining 40 orders of the larger 737 MAX 8 aircraft are to begin in 2017WestJet has ordered 65 of the 737 MAX planes from Boeing, including 25 of the smaller MAX 7 jets, with delivery starting in 2019. Deliveries of the remaining 40 orders of the larger 737 MAX 8 aircraft are to begin in 2017.

In addition, the newly formed low-cost carrier Jetlines, headquartered in Vancouver, started building its fleet in December 2014 with an order for five 737 MAXs.

Boeing Defense, Space & Security in Canada

In a letter of request submitted to the U.S. government, the Canadian government outlined its requirements for capabilities, schedule and economic benefits for 18 Super Hornet aircraft. Boeing, along with the Department of Defense and other suppliers, will develop an official proposal to provide an interim solution to supplement the current CF-18 fleet until an open and transparent competition can be completed to replace the legacy Hornet fleet.

Boeing is vying to have the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet be considered to fully replace Canada’s CF-18 fighter fleet. Boeing is positioned to offer products and services to satisfy a range of Canadian civil, defense and security requirements. Substantial opportunities also exist in nontraditional markets, including remote area logistics, information solutions and the commercial use of unmanned aerial vehicles (UAV).

Boeing played a major role in the transformation of the Canadian Forces by modernizing 77 of Canada’s CF-18 fighter jets with a two-phase avionics upgrade program completed in January 2014. L-3 Communications MAS was the prime contractor to Boeing and carried out the installation process for this program at its facility in Mirabel, Québec, and Canadian Forces Base Cold Lake (Cold Lake, Alberta). Boeing also provides the Canadian Navy’s all-weather Harpoon missiles, several of the Anik series satellites, and supply chain services to fleet support programs.

In March 2017, the Boeing-built Wideband Global Satcom (WGS-9) was launched on top of a United Launch Alliance Delta IV rocket. In addition to the U.S. Air Force, Canada was a major contributor to WGS-9 along with Denmark, Luxembourg, the Netherlands and New Zealand. WGS-9 provides Canada and the international partners with enhanced communications capabilities and increased coverage to help ensure that forces at home and abroad can communicate effectively to enable successful operations.

In February 2007, Defense, Space & Security signed a contract with the Canadian Department of National Defence to supply four Boeing C-17 Globemaster III aircraft to modernize the country’s defense forces airlift fleet. Boeing delivered all four C-17s to the Royal Canadian Air Force within 15 months of the contract signature. The aircraft were immediately put into service for military and humanitarian missions, including evacuation flights in Libya in 2011; transporting humanitarian aid, vehicles and medical patients following the Haiti earthquake in 2010; and delivery of emergency relief supplies to the people of Jamaica in the wake of Hurricane Dean in 2007. Canada’s C-17s also have supported Operation Athena in Afghanistan and in the Philippines with the recent typhoons. In December 2014, Defense, Space & Security signed a contract with the government of Canada for a fifth C-17, which was delivered in March 2015.

In August 2009, the Canadian Department of National Defence awarded Boeing a contract for 15 Boeing CH-47F Chinooks, designated CH-147, to meet Canada’s domestic and international missions requiring medium-to-heavy-lift helicopters. The Canadian Armed Forces received the 15th and final CH-147F Chinook helicopter in Petawawa, Ontario, in June 2014. The CH-147F Chinook is an advanced, multi-mission helicopter. Its primary mission is to transport equipment and personnel during both domestic and deployed operations, but it also provides a vital capability to respond to humanitarian emergencies, such as fire, floods and earthquakes. In May 2016, a Chinook was deployed for the first time on a domestic operation to support fighting the Fort McMurray, Alberta, wildfires.

Canadian industry is directly contributing to the mission-ready capability of the C-17 and CH-147 through separate 20-year in-service support contracts for the aircraft.

Canada announced in August 2016 that Canadian Forces became the first international customer of the Insitu RQ-21A Blackjack unmanned air vehicle system. The Blackjack system, which will be operational in 2017, provides Canadian Forces greater situational awareness through aerial reconnaissance and surveillance to help conduct their missions effectively. This award is a follow-on to the May 2008 announcement when Canada awarded Boeing a $14 million interim contract to provide the Canadian Army with Insitu ScanEagle UAV services, including launch, recovery, maintenance, service support and training. The contract was extended to include installation of UAV capability on Royal Canadian Navy vessels, and all work was completed as of March 2015.

In April 2013, the Boeing office in Ottawa was relocated to a larger space. The larger office is the Canadian headquarters for execution and program leadership for Boeing’s in-service support of the CH-147F and the company’s primary Global Sales & Marketing office in the country.

Boeing Partnerships in Canada

Canada is home to one of the largest international supplier bases for Boeing — including more than 560 major suppliers spanning every region of the country. Canadian partners provide aerospace parts for all Boeing commercial airplane models and nearly all defense programs, including the AH-64 Apache, V-22 Osprey and CH-47 rotorcraft, F/A-18 and F-15 fighter aircraft, P-8A maritime patrol aircraft, the C-17 Globemaster III airlifter and aircraft trainers. According to a Boeing study, combined with the Boeing facilities, this supply network significantly contributes to the Canadian economy by generating more than US$3 billion in economic benefits annually. Boeing is a global leader in developing and implementing industrial partnership programs in more than 40 countries worldwide, including Canada. Boeing has worked with Canadian companies under the government’s Industrial and Technological Benefits (formerly Industrial and Regional Benefits) program to perform business worth more than $6.7 billion in Canada, with another $2.9 billion in high-value programs currently under way.

Boeing is also partnering with Canada to develop new technology. In 2002, Boeing initiated the process that led to the creation of the successful Composites Innovation Centre (CIC) in Winnipeg, a not-for-profit composite materials research organization that develops new materials and processes for the industry. Through engagement with the CIC, Boeing has provided funding to support the Canadian Composites Manufacturing Research and Development consortium, a teaming of industrial and research organizations across Canada seeking to develop new composite manufacturing processes. In February 2013, Boeing became the founding industrial member of the University of British Columbia’s Composites Research Network, a group working with Canadian scientists to create practical applications of new composite manufacturing discoveries.

Boeing in the Community

Boeing’s corporate citizenship reflects its impact on communities by producing value-added products and services as well as through responsible business practices and by addressing social issues. Boeing employees are generous; they use their time, talent and personal resources to help maintain the success and health of communities around the world. Boeing has created partnerships that offer opportunities to inspire, inform and engage others, including employees, as part of its Global Corporate Citizenship (GCC) program.

Boeing Winnipeg, Boeing Canada and Boeing Vancouver partner with many organizations. Boeing Winnipeg’s partners include the United Way of Winnipeg and Siloam Mission, whose Building Futures/MOST program offers employment training to transition the less fortunate off the streets. Boeing Vancouver (previously Aeroinfo) partners in 2015 included: ArtStarts in Schools, which provided interactive art activities to innercity children through its Making Creative Connections program; and Frontier College, whose Indigenous Summer Literacy Camp program builds literacy and general learning skills among children and youth in First Nation communities where support and resources are limited. Boeing Ottawa’s partners in 2016 were Prince’s Operation Entrepreneur and Veterans Transition Network (continuing from a successful partnership in 2015), which assists veterans and their families with the transition from military life to civilian lifestyle. In 2016, we also supported Mealshare, a program that partners with local restaurants. When a customer orders an item that has the Mealshare logo by it, Mealshare provides one meal to a youth in need.

Boeing Winnipeg was awarded the first Canadian Manufacturers & Exporters Community Contribution Award in 2015. This award is presented to a Manitoba company that has demonstrated a commitment to supporting and building the community. This was evidenced through financial support, volunteering, participating in and organizing improvements, and being involved in initiatives that develop the social and economic landscape. Boeing Winnipeg is considered a role model in creating a positive image for the manufacturing sector.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
I am constantly amazed by the defence procurement messes that Canada seems to get themselves into.

It makes me wonder if this carries over into other segments of government or is this just peculiar to defence spending.

That Canada is spending $700 million on leasing a tanker is ridiculous. That is more than Australia is spending on two tankers. It is more than New Zealand is spending on its new tanker ... which by the way sounds like it would be ideal for Canada's requirements. Norway and Britain are both in the process of receiving new tankers from Korea that will no doubt work out far cheaper per ship than the Asterix.

The delay in getting construction underway for Canada's new support ships is probably going to push the entire cost of the program out passed $3.5 billion when you look at the combined costs of the Asterix and the new Protecteur class.

This would be considered disastrous for most nations but seems to be accepted as just "Business as usual" in Canada.
 
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