I'm pretty sure the idea is to use wedgetails for the AEWC role. Unless Australia bought a carrier, I can't see AEW coming back into the fleet.Or over 30's sold a good line!!
I'll just change the subject for a sec.
I've seen the EH 101 Merlin will be used for AEWC on RN carriers in the future.
Is Helo AEWC not needed for our LHD's? Or will we have the Wedge Tail giving AEWC for our LHD's?
While surfing the AEW sites I found an article regarding the MQ-8b where it
downloaded AESA radar and video feed simultaneously (recent).
mq-8b :: Defense Industry News Search
Could these be used in the future on LHD's or on the OCV's for AEWC?
Fire scout gets a mention in the DCP's.
Seems a handy piece of kit.
Likely?
Any one in the know?
Regards,
OZ
Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates
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I think we will plan to use existing assets, Wedgetail, JORN, SH/F-35, UAV, ship radars when operating alone locally. When operating afar we will rely on overseas assets of the USN, UK, USAF etc.
The S-80 might have been a good option, if it was avalible back in the early 80's. 2400t I feel is too small for what we want. While it can be less than 4000t its got to be bigger than euro coastal subs. I am interested in there AIP system, but that eats into a lot of space. Space we could put batteries/systems in.
We could go for conventionally powered Virginas. I would imagine they would be pretty capable and could use most US systems, developments, and we could proberly build them here at fairly low risk (it then becomes more a of a construction management rather than a design develop manage problem). Do I see us getting 12 of them? No.
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
Regarding some form of AEW for RAN assets, they would definately have their uses, even without there being a Fleet Air Arm attached. Please, lets not start that whole discussion again, even in jest, its just too soon.
Granted, the current plan is for Oz-based assets like JORN, Wedgetail, and likely the Poseidon, to provide surveillance support to any nearby RAN assets or task forces. Having said that, such assets might not be within range for proper support by external assets. This is where having some for of AEW would really come into its own. Also, keep in mind what AEW is, Airborne Early Warning... By having some form of sensor system at high altitude, the visual and radar horizons are extended beyond what conventional ship-mounted radars can 'see'. Whether the early warning delivered is of inbound flights of aircraft or missiles, or a possible hostile task force, just having such a piece of kit can reduce the 'fog of war' and potentially enabling unit/force commanders to make better, and certainly better informed, decisions.
Now, while a dismounted AEW system like something mounted on a Fire Scout UAV is interested and potentially something to pursue in the future, everyone seems to be overlooking a piece of kit that the RAN is already having enter service in ~2015-2016. Namely the MH-60R 'Romeo'. Flight ops and testing the Gulf of Mexico already determined that the Telephonics APS-147 search radar is able to monitor and track surface and airborne contacts. Granted, the radar is not optimized for the AEW role, and the naval helicopter will also have other duties, it is something which the RAN will have in service and could put to such use if/when needed.
What could be interesting is whether the RAN finds such a feature useful or important enough to have dedicated AEW aboard ship, and what modifications the RAN would like to such systems to enable them to be 'better' AEW platforms
-Cheers
Granted, the current plan is for Oz-based assets like JORN, Wedgetail, and likely the Poseidon, to provide surveillance support to any nearby RAN assets or task forces. Having said that, such assets might not be within range for proper support by external assets. This is where having some for of AEW would really come into its own. Also, keep in mind what AEW is, Airborne Early Warning... By having some form of sensor system at high altitude, the visual and radar horizons are extended beyond what conventional ship-mounted radars can 'see'. Whether the early warning delivered is of inbound flights of aircraft or missiles, or a possible hostile task force, just having such a piece of kit can reduce the 'fog of war' and potentially enabling unit/force commanders to make better, and certainly better informed, decisions.
Now, while a dismounted AEW system like something mounted on a Fire Scout UAV is interested and potentially something to pursue in the future, everyone seems to be overlooking a piece of kit that the RAN is already having enter service in ~2015-2016. Namely the MH-60R 'Romeo'. Flight ops and testing the Gulf of Mexico already determined that the Telephonics APS-147 search radar is able to monitor and track surface and airborne contacts. Granted, the radar is not optimized for the AEW role, and the naval helicopter will also have other duties, it is something which the RAN will have in service and could put to such use if/when needed.
What could be interesting is whether the RAN finds such a feature useful or important enough to have dedicated AEW aboard ship, and what modifications the RAN would like to such systems to enable them to be 'better' AEW platforms
-Cheers
About the range, seeing as we will only be operating in the pacific (on our own that is), how far can these assets with in flight refuel actually travel?
I can't see us doing anything requiring these assets with out a big and powerful friend with carrier capability (US or/and UK).
Even still our assets can operate from bases all around the region. Wedgetail has a range of over 6,000km. It would be able to see quite far being 12.5 km up in the air. These could operate from Butterworth, or other regional bases (guam?!). Refuelling would be I would imagine for increased airtime rather than range. We have 6 so that huge coverage. Then add to that any p-8 we get (12? Range of 2000km+) and any UAV's on top of that (global hawk range 25,000km!). All backed by JORN, ship radar, F-35, SH, sats, allied assets etc. I don't see how flying some little specialist helo based AEW is going to dramatically improve our situation give we have greater areas of concern.
That puts us in a pretty good position. If anything helo's/uav that can eyeball things that have low radar signatures would be more important. I would say helos is an area of greater concern.
Even still our assets can operate from bases all around the region. Wedgetail has a range of over 6,000km. It would be able to see quite far being 12.5 km up in the air. These could operate from Butterworth, or other regional bases (guam?!). Refuelling would be I would imagine for increased airtime rather than range. We have 6 so that huge coverage. Then add to that any p-8 we get (12? Range of 2000km+) and any UAV's on top of that (global hawk range 25,000km!). All backed by JORN, ship radar, F-35, SH, sats, allied assets etc. I don't see how flying some little specialist helo based AEW is going to dramatically improve our situation give we have greater areas of concern.
That puts us in a pretty good position. If anything helo's/uav that can eyeball things that have low radar signatures would be more important. I would say helos is an area of greater concern.
Reading that, I think we have it covered.
I always look at the RAN and think how close it is to being a blue water navy. All it needs is more sustainability (extra LHD), organic air cover and aew (carrier, plus jets), more replenishment ships. Like this costs billions (organic air cover, would cost possibly 20 billion), but it is still pretty damn close if you see what I mean. Were getting a pretty kick ass navy.
AEW mission aside the UK has got some useful service out of their AEW Seakings in Afghanistan. I wonder if there could be some justification in acquiring a similar capability for ISR off the LHDs. To bad we went for the MRH-90 as a Seaking replacement, Merlin would have been a better fit and it would have made the Merlin AEW a viable option down the track.
I'd rather Knighthawks and give the MRH-90s to the army.
Hold the bus!!
Speaking of the SEA1180
The launch of the Gowind corvette (recent).
I would like to sea the Gowind Presence in the mix.
I know it's only a pipe dream, but would allow for upgrades if the picture changed.
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGL_Hj6dNb0"]Gowind Corvette Launch - YouTube[/nomedia]
OZ:dbanana
ps. sea (intentional)
Speaking of the SEA1180
The launch of the Gowind corvette (recent).
I would like to sea the Gowind Presence in the mix.
I know it's only a pipe dream, but would allow for upgrades if the picture changed.
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGL_Hj6dNb0"]Gowind Corvette Launch - YouTube[/nomedia]
OZ:dbanana
ps. sea (intentional)
I think the OCV should be something like those. Similar size, features etc.
I would imagine we would use ESSM, Harpoon launchers and Phalanx fitted as needed from a pool. I do like the rear slipways to launch RHIBs. 20mm typhoon or stored 76mm gun would suffice, again could be fitted from a pool or to only certain models. I would throw in some other specs, ability to transport 100 personnel for short periods (perhaps some sort of flex space with temporary seating). Larger toilet/freshwater facilities and galley to cater for this. 2 UAV or 1 helo hangered. Ability to land a Chinook would be greatly advantageous. I don’t know how well that French design would handle those. Spain as a simular design.
I would imagine we would use ESSM, Harpoon launchers and Phalanx fitted as needed from a pool. I do like the rear slipways to launch RHIBs. 20mm typhoon or stored 76mm gun would suffice, again could be fitted from a pool or to only certain models. I would throw in some other specs, ability to transport 100 personnel for short periods (perhaps some sort of flex space with temporary seating). Larger toilet/freshwater facilities and galley to cater for this. 2 UAV or 1 helo hangered. Ability to land a Chinook would be greatly advantageous. I don’t know how well that French design would handle those. Spain as a simular design.
StevoJH
The Bunker Group
The RAN doesnt need a gold plated solution to a problem that does not exist.
Remember, anything bigger and more heavily armed then the Armidale class will be a massive increase in capability, no need to replace them with a class of ANZAC class frigates, which is what you are basically suggesting. (Not that I think the Navy shouldn't have more frigates mind you).
Remember, anything bigger and more heavily armed then the Armidale class will be a massive increase in capability, no need to replace them with a class of ANZAC class frigates, which is what you are basically suggesting. (Not that I think the Navy shouldn't have more frigates mind you).
I believe the idea is the OCVs, as well as replacing the ACPBs etc, will replace the ANZACs in their originally intended role of EEZ patrol frigates, while the ANZAC replacements grow to become FFG successors and may eventually be more capable in all areas than the AWDs.
Think outside the square; imagine ships of different displacements sharing common, interchangeable systems. They could all use the same propulsion engines (hopefully all electric), generators, auxillaries, etc. possibly even the same base combat system. The difference will be the larger ships will have more, say 4 propulsion diesels instead of two, more of the same auxillaries. You save money in your logistics and training expenses.
Out of the 20 OCVs 10 could be 1000t convertible OPVs and mine hunters and the other 10 could be 2000t convertible corvettes and hydrographic / oceanographic / open ocean mine hunters. The larger hulls could have the space, weight and systems architecture to become GP frigates if required.
Where possible we should be looking to standardise systems across classes, just mixing, matching and scaling systems to fit the size and role of the platform.
Mixed Solution!
Volkadav, can't agree more.
My choice would be Austal MRV 86/Gowind Presence for the SEA1180 solution.
Last time I researched the initial cost for 10 of each it came to 4.2billion(Internet's always right LOL).
Using this combination would allow increased endurance/capability to Green and Blue sea operations.
OZ
Volkadav, can't agree more.
My choice would be Austal MRV 86/Gowind Presence for the SEA1180 solution.
Last time I researched the initial cost for 10 of each it came to 4.2billion(Internet's always right LOL).
Using this combination would allow increased endurance/capability to Green and Blue sea operations.
OZ
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
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Im a big fan of DCNS gamble here on the Gowind, and the family of ships in general.
Giving the French navy a fully built ship to utilise for trials that may or may not lead to sales, is a very risky yet smart move. at worst it fails and the hock it to some latin country, or trials go well and the orders start piling up. could you imagine an LCS contender building and financing first, then trialing with the US...
Totally agree with Volkodav, the family suite and ability to utilise same engines, specs etc just diffent hull sizes and uses would benefit most mid size navies like RAN.
A big problem we have is getting people suitably qualified on a platform or equipment thats only say FFG or FFH use, so having all of them similar would save months on courses and open more postings for personnel.
This goes for platform endorsements, having officers from one ship waste 2 months relearning compartments, capabilities and alike stops more junior officers from learning from them, so it all comes down to reducing time and training
Anzacs at any time can still be called upon for Op Resoloute, and have in the past sat off Christmas island twiddling there thumbs, so having a OCV will utilise the best of both ships, speed of a smaller ship, and ability to carry more boarding party, helos, and anyone detained in the EEZ. It also allows for any situation or emergency that comes up for more ships to be closer to asia capable of dealing with more incidents, having another Tsunami hit say Indo, a OCV with Helo could provide more support then just a patrol boat.
Plus, it doesnt hurt to improve the range from ACPB to OCV so that more boats can sail to asia for port visits...
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From what I hear, in most senior circles the hope is that the OCV project as currently described in the white paper, will die a quiet death.
Although I will get flamed because it is in the "white paper etc" the more they, (CDG) dig the more impossible it looks. The guidance from those in the know to senior politicians is that, WRT to in particular, the replacement of MCM platforms, no amount of SPM's, will protect the same as a purpose built ship and that, does not come close to the requirements of the other classes.
The only senior naval people who really still want a OCV is CN (with obvious close connections there so that's no surprise he still wants them!!!)
That's my two cents...........
Although I will get flamed because it is in the "white paper etc" the more they, (CDG) dig the more impossible it looks. The guidance from those in the know to senior politicians is that, WRT to in particular, the replacement of MCM platforms, no amount of SPM's, will protect the same as a purpose built ship and that, does not come close to the requirements of the other classes.
The only senior naval people who really still want a OCV is CN (with obvious close connections there so that's no surprise he still wants them!!!)
That's my two cents...........
I remember a concern with the original corvette concept back in the 90s was that there was no way the RAN could supply the required number of Principle Warfare Officers a class of 12 to 15 corvettes would require. I imagine one of the concerns the RAN would have with the OCV is where will the crews come from, or specifically the extra warfighters and technicians. Maybe we need to look at goiong for operater / maintainers.
StevoJH
The Bunker Group
I hear the RN is downsizing at the moment, their loss is the RAN's gain.
Yeah but the OCV (SEA 1180) is not the OPC (corvette). The Tenix Corvette had missiles, radars and a medium gun. The OCV will just be a big patrol boat fitted with a Typhoon, surface search radars and little more. Any additional warfighting capability will be brought on board the ship and operated via modules like the LCS. Any PWOs and the like will be attached to the modules as MCM Teams or UAV Teams, etc rather than HMA Patrol Boats crews.
I would have thought the ability to mount at the very least a phalanx would be useful in combination with a 20mm typhoon.
Then it would be able to operate regionally/out of region as a EEZ enforcement, antipriacy unit. Freeing frigates up from this role. Particularly in areas where refugees or arrests would need to be taken on board which is not ideal on a frigate.
Then it would be able to operate regionally/out of region as a EEZ enforcement, antipriacy unit. Freeing frigates up from this role. Particularly in areas where refugees or arrests would need to be taken on board which is not ideal on a frigate.
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