Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[ASSAIL]

I think the more important discussion on East coast basing should be where to Base submarines.
This has been discussed before without resolution.
Has anyone got further information on this matter or for instance the future of the White Bay Terminal which would seem a good candidate if NSW Ports did a deal with the CoA? It’s far away enough from residential areas so as not to offend the NIMBYs.

 

[alexsa]

Potentially but I'm thinking a FOB more then 1.5km from the main base might be a bit better. New rule for you jokers with this question. Said FOB needs to be north of FBE and at least 5km. I know asking a lot from you guys

Good day folks

We need to temper this debate with a practical understanding of what the bases do. They are not simply to berth the ship but also provide maintenance and secure locations for leave periods. Having your workshops co-located with the wharf is essentially to efficiently carrying out the former while being somewhere close to your home helps with the second. A shared FOB (Navy/Civilian) does nothing to address this .... particularly if it is on 5km away. All that would appear to do is add an additional cost and have the RAN essentially subsidising another facility for the civilians to use. Lets face it ..... everything in Sydney is close to something and wharfage is at a premium as places like Barangaroo and Darling Harbour have removed a lot fo capacity. What are you going to find within 5km .... possibly only Cockatoo Island and that option appears to be well beyond the realms of reality. So a FOB 5km north does not appear realistic or beneficial.

Remember FBE has the biggest graving dock in the Southern Hemisphere within its confines. FBW is located near Henderson (very near) with its common user facility and expanding maintenance facilities. These are essential support mechanisms for the fleet.

Both these facilities have growth capacity and can cater for our current fleet size (noting we used to trot up frigates three deep alongside ... that makes a lot of use of a wharf). The only exception may be the Attack Class noting there are no dedicated submarine facilities in the East. It will be interesting to see how they deal with that (Cockatoo Island could be a great locations but as noted above I think this option has about as much likelihood as Adelaide winning a premiership this year in the current climate).

* for those not in Australia ...... Adelaide an Australian rules football team who are running dead last ..... Mind you I am in no position to be critical as I barrack for St Kilda who have been singularly unsuccessful in the 50 plus years I have supported them and last won in 1966 and choked in the grand final in 2009 and 2010 .....

Current commercial berths in Sydney and Bintang ...and their uses ...can be found here

Berths & facilities

Port Authority of New South Wales' provides the latest depth information for the shipping berths and channels within Sydney Harbour and Botany Bay.

www.portauthoritynsw.com.au

Berths & facilities

Port Botany is operated by NSW Ports. All berths in Port Botany are leased to terminal operators. There are no lay up berths available in Port Botany unless by prior agreement with the relevant terminal.

www.portauthoritynsw.com.au

If we were planning to invest in a new FOB then it would be in our area of operations which would staging locations not long term bases for ships as such. And they wont necessarily be in Australia (i,e Manus) and if they are they would be further North (i,e Darwin).

I do suggest before we head down this rabbit hole of suggesting relocating irreplaceable facilities we so some research as to the benefits or otherwise of the proposed option and the cost.

 

[alexsa]

HMAS Palm Beach?

Sorry I missed the FOB part and thought you were focussed on providing surge capacity for FBE, which Circular Quay and White Bay would do nicely I would’ve thought.

So a further upgrade perhaps to the Port of Townsville or HMAS Cairns?

As a general comment, can we please look at the locations being proposed and provide some justification to the suggestion otherwise this is spit balling and adds little to the discussion. Looking at Cairns .... just where do you propose to locate the base to take the size of ships we are talking about.

It does not have the facilities for large warships (and yes I know the OPV’s will be there but a 200m+ warship is a different beast).

Cairns | Ports North

www.portsnorth.com.au

Townsville certainly can take them but this is a commercial port (and fully utilised) and has very limited support facilities of the type found in FBE and FBW. It is also a man made port and any expansion will involve the extension of the port (including the breakwater). This is not a cheap option. So sending ship there to use the families (which the currently do) is not an issue. Basing there is an issued with the current facilities.

Port of Townsville | Australia's Port for the Future | Port of Townsville

The Port of Townsville is Northern Australia's largest container and automotive port, and the country's leading exporter of copper, zinc, lead, sugar, fertiliser and molasses.

www.townsville-port.com.au

I do not want to start curtailing discussion but the suggestions should at least have some rigorous consideration before being proposed.

 

[ASSAIL]

Good day folks

We need to temper this debate with a practical understanding of what the bases do. They are not simply to berth the ship but also provide maintenance and secure locations for leave periods. Having your workshops co-located with the wharf is essentially to efficiently carrying out the former while being somewhere close to your home helps with the second. A shared FOB (Navy/Civilian) does nothing to address this .... particularly if it is on 5km away. All that would appear to do is add an additional cost and have the RAN essentially subsidising another facility for the civilians to use. Lets face it ..... everything in Sydney is close to something and wharfage is at a premium as places like Barangaroo and Darling Harbour have removed a lot fo capacity. What are you going to find within 5km .... possibly only Cockatoo Island and that option appears to be well beyond the realms of reality. So a FOB 5km north does not appear realistic or beneficial.

Remember FBE has the biggest graving dock in the Southern Hemisphere within its confines. FBW is located near Henderson (very near) with its common user facility and expanding maintenance facilities. These are essential support mechanisms for the fleet.

Both these facilities have growth capacity and can cater for our current fleet size (noting we used to trot up frigates three deep alongside ... that makes a lot of use of a wharf). The only exception may be the Attack Class noting there are no dedicated submarine facilities in the East. It will be interesting to see how they deal with that (Cockatoo Island could be a great locations but as noted above I think this option has about as much likelihood as Adelaide winning a premiership this year in the current climate).

* for those not in Australia ...... Adelaide an Australian rules football team who are running dead last ..... Mind you I am in no position to be critical as I barrack for St Kilda who have been singularly unsuccessful in the 50 plus years I have supported them and last won in 1966 and choked in the grand final in 2009 and 2010 .....

Current commercial berths in Sydney and Bintang ...and their uses ...can be found here

Berths & facilities

Port Authority of New South Wales' provides the latest depth information for the shipping berths and channels within Sydney Harbour and Botany Bay.

www.portauthoritynsw.com.au

Berths & facilities

Port Botany is operated by NSW Ports. All berths in Port Botany are leased to terminal operators. There are no lay up berths available in Port Botany unless by prior agreement with the relevant terminal.

www.portauthoritynsw.com.au

If we were planning to invest in a new FOB then it would be in our area of operations which would staging locations not long term bases for ships as such. And they wont necessarily be in Australia (i,e Manus) and if they are they would be further North (i,e Darwin).

I do suggest before we head down this rabbit hole of suggesting relocating irreplaceable facilities we so some research as to the benefits or otherwise of the proposed option and the cost.

After reading your link on White Bay and Glebe Island wharves I suspect white Bay is a lost cause however, due to the weight restrictions, apparent little commercial uses on Glebe Island and the fact it is even further away from residential areas, It could be a possibility for submarines.

 

[spoz]

Open source discussion on possible east coast submarine basing has canvassed a number of options in the past from Gladstone to Westernport, but recently seems to have been focussing on Port Jackson, Newcastle or Port Kembla as being the most likely, if there is to be one.

 

[StingrayOZ]

Last I heard about Submarine bases, it was a toss up between Newcastle and Woolongong. Strictly for the new Attack class.

Newcastle would probably be my preference. They might also be able to do something with the old Foracs/civmec yard or presence. Create an east coast submarine base with basic submarine/small RAN ship maintenance capability. But same thing could be done at Woolongong. Either would be close enough to FBE without causing a problem. Both excellent deep water ports.

Sydney FBE could then focus on big surface stuff, and allied capabilities and support.

 

[Stampede]

Last I heard about Submarine bases, it was a toss up between Newcastle and Woolongong. Strictly for the new Attack class.

Newcastle would probably be my preference. They might also be able to do something with the old Foracs/civmec yard or presence. Create an east coast submarine base with basic submarine/small RAN ship maintenance capability. But same thing could be done at Woolongong. Either would be close enough to FBE without causing a problem. Both excellent deep water ports.

Sydney FBE could then focus on big surface stuff, and allied capabilities and support.

I ask this as a national question and not just because I live " down south ".
Melbourne has a fifth of the Nations population and more if you consider the surrounding cities within a 100 km's form the states capital.
It in effect straddles two harbours in Port Phillip Bay and Western Port. Has large and significant port infrastructure and was a former centre of warship construction. A hub for manufacturing / education and industry coupled with an expanding population base with room to grow ,it should have appeal for both defence personal and their families.
Listening to the many criteria for home porting warships, this region would tick many boxes.
While its distance may seem like an enemy in proximity to other defence assets, it must be remembered it is only about a day and a half sail to Sydney at a conservative rate of knots. ......................Brisbane / Townsville / Cairns are still big distances from FBE.
While I'm not suggesting moving the fleet south, some elements could get a look.
Certainly Subs come to mind..................Not to great a sailing distance to Jervis Bay and certainly Melbourne is much closer to Adelaide for Submarine maintenance than Sydney.
Concede the LHD's and destroyers should stay in FBE , but I do recall taking a few "happy snaps" In Williamstown when Canberra and Adelaide where getting fitted out....................on that note, all eight ANZAC's for the RAN plus another two for NZ as well as their two OPV's were built here.

Yep, some naval tradition down south as well !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Regards S

PS Maybe a bit parochial

 

[t68]

After reading your link on White Bay and Glebe Island wharves I suspect white Bay is a lost cause however, due to the weight restrictions, apparent little commercial uses on Glebe Island and the fact it is even further away from residential areas, It could be a possibility for submarines.

I went past White Bay today looking over from the ANZAC bridge just a couple of small bulk carriers , it doesn't appear to get much use these days. i did a few bulk deliveries to HMNZS Endeavour back in the day and grab the wash-water when bulk additives arrived for lubrizoil when they used to barge it up the river to Silverwater , as well as bunker oil from Mobil

 

[ASSAIL]

I went past White Bay today looking over from the ANZAC bridge just a couple of small bulk carriers , it doesn't appear to get much use these days. i did a few bulk deliveries to HMNZS Endeavour back in the day and grab the wash-water when bulk additives arrived for lubrizoil when they used to barge it up the river to Silverwater , as well as bunker oil from Mobil

Yes but it’s used for many of the Cruise ships able to pass under the harbour bridge.
Good luck with kicking them out and refusing the use of FBE!

 

[DDG38]

I went past White Bay today looking over from the ANZAC bridge just a couple of small bulk carriers , it doesn't appear to get much use these days. i did a few bulk deliveries to HMNZS Endeavour back in the day and grab the wash-water when bulk additives arrived for lubrizoil when they used to barge it up the river to Silverwater , as well as bunker oil from Mobil

A decision has already been made on it's future : Glebe Island Multi User Facility

 

[spoz]

Both Westernport and Port Philip Bay have difficult entrances vulnerable to mining, with deep water some distance away. And, it’sa long way to the EAXA; about a day’s steaming.

 

[aussienscale]

Both Westernport and Port Philip Bay have difficult entrances vulnerable to mining, with deep water some distance away. And, it’sa long way to the EAXA; about a day’s steaming.

Correct, let alone to get to our area of operations around SEA, but you have hit the nail on the head, deep water access, we did discuss this some years ago and very few suitable access points, JB goes deep pretty quick, as does Wollongong, Newcastle and Sydney drops of nice and quick indeed with subs diving literally as they are going through the heads.

Further north nothing within the GBR is suitable and long transits to get out of the reef to deep water and the associated deep water not to mention how many choke points !

Brisbane has the same issues. Then of course there are all the other reasons that have been brought up for sustainment, crews, family, supply and the list goes on.

Cheers

 

[Stampede]

Correct, let alone to get to our area of operations around SEA, but you have hit the nail on the head, deep water access, we did discuss this some years ago and very few suitable access points, JB goes deep pretty quick, as does Wollongong, Newcastle and Sydney drops of nice and quick indeed with subs diving literally as they are going through the heads.

Further north nothing within the GBR is suitable and long transits to get out of the reef to deep water and the associated deep water not to mention how many choke points !

Brisbane has the same issues. Then of course there are all the other reasons that have been brought up for sustainment, crews, family, supply and the list goes on.

Cheers

A layman's response.
I would envisage both Fleet base East and West would look very different in a high tempo conflict.
The tempo of operations would see much of the fleet at sea.
In times of peace, I could see more of an attraction for our under water fleet in the south with the variety of sea landscape in the Bass straight region.
Continental shelf to Tasmania and many a Island to play hide and seek ,Plus you only need to head off to the NSW / Vic boarder and beyond for deep water.
May not have the warm water salinity for training, but half the force will be out West anyway to hone those skills.
Army does not train to fight in a single climate and it must be remembered there is a lot of cold water in North Asian waters complete with shallow water and Island clusters.

The negatives of the shallow harbour entrance may actually be an advantage for secure anchorage.
After all, no midget subs made there way into Port Phillip bay.........................Although a sub launched plane did fly over the heads

I'll leave it at that


Regards S

 

[vonnoobie]

Let's not move the fleet south thank you very much. By end of the week some one will be proposing basing them in Antarctica -_- . FBW/FBE are perfectly fine just in need of some extra berthing with the possibility of use for FOB's and maybe a seperate submarine base for any eastern based boats.

No need to bring Melbourne into it especially when it will also need investment in berthing facilities or rebuilding the scaled down industry here. Love nothing more then to see them, work around the corner but just not feasible.

On a side note... Why did the navy in their wisdom base both main bases at garden island? Never worked it out.

 

[spoz]

It actually is coincidence, believe it or not. At the time Navy (the RN actually in both cases, about 120 years apart, and as an agent of the Commonwealth in the case of the West) wanted some land they were what was available. Of course, it's also designed to confuse anybody not in the game. To avoid that is why, if you don't want to use FBE and FBW, one is always known as "GI" and the other as "Stirling".

 

[Stampede]

Let's not move the fleet south thank you very much. By end of the week some one will be proposing basing them in Antarctica -_- . FBW/FBE are perfectly fine just in need of some extra berthing with the possibility of use for FOB's and maybe a seperate submarine base for any eastern based boats.

No need to bring Melbourne into it especially when it will also need investment in berthing facilities or rebuilding the scaled down industry here. Love nothing more then to see them, work around the corner but just not feasible.

On a side note... Why did the navy in their wisdom base both main bases at garden island? Never worked it out.

With the Spirit of Tasmania moving from Station Pier to Geelong there might be an opportunity !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
My true preference was actually western Port bay................................Antarctica a close second

Regards S

 

[echo_base]

Of course the CCP / PRC are stepping up their espionage activities. You can't ignore that and if I was Australia I would close down the consulate in Adelaide. Further I would apply the same rules to the PRC diplomats that the PRC apply to foreign diplomats, specifically Australian diplomats, in the PRC.

Long time lurker, first time poster.

Another reason why the PRC consulate is so large in Adelaide is that it's home to Australia's largest Uyghur population, and we already know that PRC diplomatic posts devote large amounts of resources to monitoring diaspora communities.

 

[StingrayOZ]

It may be beneficial to co-locate the submarine base and a new cruise ship facility together in the same port. Providing water traffic cover for submarines.

Melbourne unfortunately is not ideal for submarines, the ocean topography around Melbourne is much like the city, flat, and shallow (oh!). Tassy used to be physically connected and the waters are fairly shallow for hundreds of kms. Darwin has the same problem but worse, it would be impossible to base subs there either. Brisbane and up north queensland has the same problem. The barrier reef used to be the Australian coast line just ~10,000 years ago.

The rugged coast lines of Woolongong, Sydney and Newcastle mean hugely deep waters which are ideal for submarines to slip into. Even the edge of the shelf is 100-300ft deep. There is also a lot of interesting things happening with currents and thermoclines.


Newcastle would be my pick because:
Its a bit further out of Sydney, Woolongong is basically already consumed by Sydney.

• RAAF base Williamtown is located nearby
• CIVMEC already have the Foracs yard there (two actually one for civilian and the tomago yard), where we built Sydney ferries, Tobrok etc. Although a land swap etc might be more appropriate if a large base was to be assembled there are options. CIVMEC can then run the lower level sub maintenance stuff on both coasts.
• Newcastle is probably better setup for cruise ship transition, and city expansion, they have that wacky battery powered tram/train thing in the city now.
• Newcastle has an airport and good rail links. The airport could operate P8's for example for ASW training.
• Newcastle will be completely devastated by switching off the multiple coal power stations (earing and Vales point) and coal mines in the area. Job prospects are bleak while Woolongong people can probably commute to south Sydney, Newcastle that is a huge ask (although some do it).
• Newcastle has lots of affordable real estate, Woolongong is expensive now. Newcastle is a delightful place to live, with beaches and a younger demographic.
• Its still a few hours further north. This has multiple benefits:
  • It can also blend into marine traffic coming in and out of Sydney and ports further south. If you go south of Sydney, you loose traffic, particularly global traffic.
  • A few hours drive north doesn't sound like a lot, but travelling at ~5kts by submarine its a thing. Everything they need to do is in the north.
  • If your heading south, you are then just building something next to JB.
• Already bigger port

Newcastle just seems like an easy fit IMO.

 

[spoz]

Um, what is south is all the exercise areas in which the Navy does its thing. While that is certainly not an impossibility it would add a number of hours between the home port and the place you want to be when you are at sea in normal situations in peacetime. It also means probably a passage either on the surface or snorting so as to be able to do it in a reasonable time. That has the potential to be both uncomfortable for the troops and exposes the boat to a risk that is potentially avoidable, as it would have to cross the traffic coming out of Port Jackson, Botany Bay and Port Kembla - and one of the major causes of peacetime submarine loss is collision. Not a biggy, but a thought.

As you have noted, the Gong is now almost part of Sydney but what that particularly means is that it is possible to live in the Illawarra and work in Sydney, something which is not really possible from Newcastle. That would be good from the point of view of spouse employment, and also for those people who flop back and forth between submarines and general service.

However, either solution could certainly be made to work if the will is there to do so.

 

[alexsa]

With the Spirit of Tasmania moving from Station Pier to Geelong there might be an opportunity !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
My true preference was actually western Port bay................................Antarctica a close second

Regards S

Interesting concept .... but Station Pier is spoken for as a working berth .... as a most remaining berths in cities due to the mad desire to build marina’s and flats on any waterfront space that comes available.

Victorian Ports Corporation - Melbourne

VPCM is a Victorian government statutory authority, responsible for the state-retained business and activities resulting from the lease of the Port of Melbourne.

www.vicports.vic.gov.au

There are proposals that may seen an expansion of facilities at Westernport near Crib Point (HMAS Cerberus) but this would only provide a visit capacity for large ships at best as there are no maintenance facilities. Williamstown have facilities (or had) but the future of the Williamstown is still not confirmed by current state planning document ....

https://www.portofmelbourne.com/wp-content/uploads/PoM-2050-PDS-Draft-for-Consultation.pdf