Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[t68]

On moving GI - the cost would, to say the least, be astronomical. CCD alone has been estimated at $3 billion to replace. Plus Botany Bay is a very busy commercial port with some of the largest container facilities in Australia, and of course the oil discharge and storage facilities at Kurnell. And crab fast jets in the middle of Sydney? You think you have noise issues now....It’s also been done to death.

Well the Commonwealth is already spending $8billion on a second Sydney airport.

While redevelopment is not cheap it does give options to the federal government when you consider they already have to put funds aside for submarine base on the east coast

There is room for expansion as they were talking about an overseas shipping terminal at Yarra bay, but that would be out of the question for goods or Navy I would imagine

While it would be nice to see fast jets operating from KSA I was more referring to RAAF Richmond & HMAS Albatross. I don’t think aircraft movements from both would be over taxing for local residents if anything it would be somewhat less than now.

I know it’s controversial and GI is the spiritual home of the RAN but it would seem with the new LHD GI is being squeezed out and needs room to expand

 

[Redlands18]

Well the Commonwealth is already spending $8billion on a second Sydney airport.

While redevelopment is not cheap it does give options to the federal government when you consider they already have to put funds aside for submarine base on the east coast

There is room for expansion as they were talking about an overseas shipping terminal at Yarra bay, but that would be out of the question for goods or Navy I would imagine

While it would be nice to see fast jets operating from KSA I was more referring to RAAF Richmond & HMAS Albatross. I don’t think aircraft movements from both would be over taxing for local residents if anything it would be somewhat less than now.

I know it’s controversial and GI is the spiritual home of the RAN but it would seem with the new LHD GI is being squeezed out and needs room to expand

And the squeeze is only going to get worse as they go from the 121m long Anzacs to the 150m long Hunters, we are going from the current 3 Amphibs and 1-2 AORs, to 2 Amphibs, 2 JSS and 2 AORs, the Arafura’s will need more space when they visit compared to the Armidale’. While there is only a moderate increase in Ship numbers, the combined displacement of the fleet will double between 2010 and 2040.

 

[DDG38]

I know it’s controversial and GI is the spiritual home of the RAN but it would seem with the new LHD GI is being squeezed out and needs room to expand

That's why the Cruiser Wharf & EW have been redeveloped.

 

[spoz]

Albatross is close to the EAXA making it easy and quick (and cheap) to get to areas of military airspace for exercises and interaction with ships. Helo training requires lots of space to enable training in autos and the like and to remote area training. OFT for 60R requires constant access to exercises areas and targets. All that is a lot easy to arrange in the Shoalhaven than in the Sydney area; not to mention that most of the FAA lives within about 30 minutes of the place, which has certainly proved useful on a number of occasions (1998, 2004, 2020, many others). Moving Albatross would not be a very good idea.

I’ve seen estimates for the total cost of moving GI as high as 100 billion, and that was some years ago.

 

[spoz]

And the squeeze is only going to get worse as they go from the 121m long Anzacs to the 150m long Hunters, we are going from the current 3 Amphibs and 1-2 AORs, to 2 Amphibs, 2 JSS and 2 AORs, the Arafura’s will need more space when they visit compared to the Armidale’. While there is only a moderate increase in Ship numbers, the combined displacement of the fleet will double between 2010 and 2040.

The Arafura will go to Waterhen when they visit, I should think. After all, we once berthed a frigate (Culgoa) there.

One of the AORs will be homeported in the west; if it comes east it will probably be trotted.

We don’t yet know where JSS, if they eventuate as that, will berth.

And as noted we are realigning the cruiser/oil wharves.

But even without that, there was a period when we berthed two light carriers, an AO, 12 destroyers and frigates and an EMS there, plus normally 1 or two visitors there - and we didn’t have FBE then. Although, if you don’t want any body outboard, then admittedly it is getting rather tight.

 

[t68]

That's why the Cruiser Wharf & EW have been redeveloped.

The redevelopment is showing a 70m extension to East Dock Wharf and the new cruiser/oil wharf will be 370m we currently have berthing overall at 1,678m while the 9 ships homeported use 1,636m of that that will eventually increase to 10 ships fora total wharf needs of 1,818m the increase from the redevelopment of cruiser/oil & Eastdock is an extra 170 for a total of 1,848m. Still bloody tight if you ask me

PSG Holdings

www.psgholdings.com.au

 

[DDG38]

The redevelopment is showing a 70m extension to East Dock Wharf and the new cruiser/oil wharf will be 370m we currently have berthing overall at 1,678m while the 9 ships homeported use 1,636m of that that will eventually increase to 10 ships fora total wharf needs of 1,818m the increase from the redevelopment of cruiser/oil & Eastdock is an extra 170 for a total of 1,848m. Still bloody tight if you ask me

PSG Holdings

www.psgholdings.com.au

Maybe, but given how busy the fleet is, how many days of the year do you think absolutely every ship will be alongside ? So while space may look tight, I have faith that Fleet Ops will manage it. Not like we'll be getting many CBG visits anytime soon.

 

[t68]

Maybe, but given how busy the fleet is, how many days of the year do you think absolutely every ship will be alongside ? So while space may look tight, I have faith that Fleet Ops will manage it. Not like we'll be getting many CBG visits anytime soon.

Yeah no doubt they can manage as at the present with the limitations with they were down to just a tad over 1400m of usable berthing space. But with pressure from the state government and cruis ship berthing the problems are not going away even with the upgrade

 

[Raven22]

Yeah no doubt they can manage as at the present with the limitations with they were down to just a tad over 1400m of usable berthing space. But with pressure from the state government and cruis ship berthing the problems are not going away even with the upgrade

I don’t think there will be much pressure from the cruise ship industry for some time to come. It will be a very weak government that gives in to demands from that sector for the next couple of decades at least. The presence of the Navy is a guaranteed money maker. As current events show, the tourist industry, particularly the cruise industry, not so much.

 

[John Fedup]

I don’t think there will be much pressure from the cruise ship industry for some time to come. It will be a very weak government that gives in to demands from that sector for the next couple of decades at least. The presence of the Navy is a guaranteed money maker. As current events show, the tourist industry, particularly the cruise industry, not so much.

I was going to make a similar argument, it will be a long recovery for the cruise industry, especially considering much of their business comes from those most vulnerable to COVID. Unlike jets, I imagine berthing issues for idle ships might be more difficult but I haven’t seen anything about this.

 

[ngatimozart]

I don’t think there will be much pressure from the cruise ship industry for some time to come. It will be a very weak government that gives in to demands from that sector for the next couple of decades at least. The presence of the Navy is a guaranteed money maker. As current events show, the tourist industry, particularly the cruise industry, not so much.

I saw that cruising out of Norway had started up again, but at the beginning of the month at least one ship has returned to port with COVID-19 infectious passengers onboard. I would probably classify it as an onboard outbreak and what we in NZ would call a cluster.

At least 40 infected with COVID-19 on Norway cruises amid scramble to trace passengers

 

[vonnoobie]

Question. Looking at GI all wharf space seems to be located on the western side of the base while eastern side is left all but untouched. Is this for a particular reason or could we conceivably build a wharf on the eastern side that would not only help the navy but cruise industry too to an extent?

Other then that is their any nearby locations the Commonwealth could invest into to create a surge capacity of needed for naval/cruise ships? Not so much shift everything but rather give some other nearby location the basics to park a ship and basic services if needed?

Would also be cautious on writing off the cruise industry so soon. That would require people to actually learn and think about risk factors, people are generally stupid. Couple years tops and cruise industry could be back into full swing.

 

[Flexson]

Question. Looking at GI all wharf space seems to be located on the western side of the base while eastern side is left all but untouched. Is this for a particular reason or could we conceivably build a wharf on the eastern side that would not only help the navy but cruise industry too to an extent?

I won't go into specific details on something that is not already in the public domain. But yes. There are navy basing concept drawings for this. And I stress, these are possible concepts only with no current plan to enact. I personally, highly doubt it would happen due to the NIMBY's in Elizabeth Bay, Rushcutters Bay and Darling Point.

 

[pussertas]

Spies in Australia's Naval Build Program.

ABC news (Australia) published an article on 'spies' in our naval build program.

'Highly active' spies posing an 'extreme threat' to Australia's shipbuilding plan

The Defence Department warns a multi-billion-dollar shipbuilding project is being threatened by "highly actively" foreign agents in plots to steal military secrets.

www.abc.net.au

This IMHO would be a back door into the UK;s defence industry.

 

[spoz]

Given that the Huunters’ sensor fit and combat system is significantly different to the UK T26, that seems a bit unlikely. Plus, they have been around since not long after the beginning of the AWD Program.

 

[ngatimozart]

Spies in Australia's Naval Build Program.

ABC news (Australia) published an article on 'spies' in our naval build program.

'Highly active' spies posing an 'extreme threat' to Australia's shipbuilding plan

The Defence Department warns a multi-billion-dollar shipbuilding project is being threatened by "highly actively" foreign agents in plots to steal military secrets.

www.abc.net.au

This IMHO would be a back door into the UK;s defence industry.

Of course the CCP / PRC are stepping up their espionage activities. You can't ignore that and if I was Australia I would close down the consulate in Adelaide. Further I would apply the same rules to the PRC diplomats that the PRC apply to foreign diplomats, specifically Australian diplomats, in the PRC.

 

[Richo99]

I won't go into specific details on something that is not already in the public domain. But yes. There are navy basing concept drawings for this. And I stress, these are possible concepts only with no current plan to enact. I personally, highly doubt it would happen due to the NIMBY's in Elizabeth Bay, Rushcutters Bay and Darling Point.

Alternatively, with respect to the future Attacks, is it at all feasible to adapt Waterhen for sub operations, or is it too small/shallow/constrained ?

 

[MARKMILES77]

Regarding Fleet Base East
Why does nobody discuss its vulnerability?

1.Everything that goes on there is observable from 10,000 locations in Sydney. Houses, apartments, little boats can all watch everything.
If China doesnt have someone renting an apartment on Finger Wharf or a nearby building I'd be amazed.

2.In a shooting war there will be no need to use multi million dollar missiles to put RAN vessels out of action at sea.
You will disable them at FBE. It is impossible to defend.

 

[Todjaeger]

Regarding Fleet Base East
Why does nobody discuss its vulnerability?

1.Everything that goes on there is observable from 10,000 locations in Sydney. Houses, apartments, little boats can all watch everything.
If China doesnt have someone renting an apartment on Finger Wharf or a nearby building I'd be amazed.

2.In a shooting war there will be no need to use multi million dollar missiles to put RAN vessels out of action at sea.
You will disable them at FBE. It is impossible to defend.

And your point is? Realistically, unless a navy (not just the RAN BTW) established a naval base in/at a usable anchorage which is out of sight from any civilian population centre, and also banned all civilian settlement within sight of the base/anchorage, and also had the base configured so that it was not visible from open water (behind a headland or point, perhaps?) then there is nothing particularly new about the possible scenario where a PRC (or Russian, Soviet, N.Korean etc.) agent with a telescope or binoculars, or even a digital SLR with high zoom lens keeps an eye on an adversary's naval bases.

Also, by the very nature of a base being a fixed installation, it automatically becomes potentially vulnerable to attack since it becomes rather difficult to high the presence of much of the infrastructure involved in supporting complex pieces of kit like warships.

Incidentally, by dispersing naval assets across several bases, plus training and deployment cycles, then a Navy should not have such a concentration of force which could be vulnerable all at once. In short, preventing a repeat of the attack on Pearl Harbor in 1941.

 

[DDG38]

Regarding Fleet Base East
Why does nobody discuss its vulnerability?

1.Everything that goes on there is observable from 10,000 locations in Sydney. Houses, apartments, little boats can all watch everything.
If China doesnt have someone renting an apartment on Finger Wharf or a nearby building I'd be amazed.

2.In a shooting war there will be no need to use multi million dollar missiles to put RAN vessels out of action at sea.
You will disable them at FBE. It is impossible to defend.

As opposed to what ? Building hardened sub pens than can fit a DDG in it ? And these days any modern military doesn't need a dude in a trench coat holding a walkie talkie looking out a window reporting on fleet movements. There's these things called satellites capable of collecting all sorts of things that indicate platform movements.