Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

Status
Not open for further replies.

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
Is a lack of deep water access likely to be a problem for submarines operating out of Lombrum when the new base is complete? The Bismarck Sea is relatively shallow isn't it? I had assumed that one of the major reasons for the upgrade was to reduce transit times to and from the SCS and the central pacific for the Attacks. Otherwise its a long cruise back to FBE and a consequent reduction in availability.

I've also assumed similar use for subs based at FBW for Christmas Is. or Cocos / Keeling. This is very convenient when we want to influence the traffic through the Sunda & Malacca straits, or to deter action against the north west shelf. No shortage of deep water in the Indian Ocean though.

Or do I have the wrong end of the stick?
While I believe the Cocos Keeling islands may provide some benefits for FBW Christmas island not at all. The former has safe harbour but limited land area while the latter has plenty of land but zero harbour and no ability to build such a harbour as the island for all intents is a mountain in the ocean. No place around it to build up any sort of break wall for a harbour otherwise would have already been done while what limited shipping they get depends heavily on the weather as to what side of the island is used. Only time Christmas island will come into use for the ADF is when the zombies arrive and a safe location is needed .

As to the Bismarck sea it's actually a lot deeper then you think. i-Boating : Free Marine Navigation Charts & Fishing Maps
Have a look at that to get an idea. Much of it is over 1,000m in depth.
 

Morgo

Well-Known Member
@Morgo

I have deleted the duplicated part of this post as repeating the content of post #24,427 may cause confusion for those trying to follow the thread. You simply needed to respond to Vonnobie's last post (which was #28428).

Cheers
Alexsa


While I believe the Cocos Keeling islands may provide some benefits for FBW Christmas island not at all. The former has safe harbour but limited land area while the latter has plenty of land but zero harbour and no ability to build such a harbour as the island for all intents is a mountain in the ocean. No place around it to build up any sort of break wall for a harbour otherwise would have already been done while what limited shipping they get depends heavily on the weather as to what side of the island is used. Only time Christmas island will come into use for the ADF is when the zombies arrive and a safe location is needed .

As to the Bismarck sea it's actually a lot deeper then you think. i-Boating : Free Marine Navigation Charts & Fishing Maps
Have a look at that to get an idea. Much of it is over 1,000m in depth.
Thanks, that's very informative.

Looks like the only way to make use of Christmas Is would be to go full Bond villain and build sub pens into the island, which would be prohibitively expensive on the mainland let alone in the middle of the Indian Ocean.

I also suspect the Indonesians would lose their minds if there were any major military / dual use construction undertaken given the proximity to Java.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
Thanks, that's very informative.

Looks like the only way to make use of Christmas Is would be to go full Bond villain and build sub pens into the island, which would be prohibitively expensive on the mainland let alone in the middle of the Indian Ocean.

I also suspect the Indonesians would lose their minds if there were any major military / dual use construction undertaken given the proximity to Java.
Not even submarine pens would work. Too exposed to the ocean currents would have your boats smashed against the sides of the pens before fully leaving them. Would still need a break wall to cover the pens entry which we know just can't be done.

From a purely construction and supply standpoint it would be quicker, easier and cheaper to build such a capability at Cocos rather than Christmas island. Not just need for the facilities to support and maintain them but also facilities to effect the quickest and efficient resupply of said base.

-----

As to Lobrum from a military conflict stand point and even peace time it opens options for the RAN to not sail from just FBW to the SCS meaning china needs to monitor the south end but rather allows assets from FBE to move against it from the east. For surface ships here nor there but for submarines it means china having to split their force from one point to two, well at least in VERY simple terms if I understand it correctly.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
FBW for subs is a good option if your concern is the Malacca straits and the access to the Indian ocean, the gulf and the important oil trade that happens there. The US struggles at this point to project power, its not ideal for them. India, Malaysia and Singapore aren't exactly US allies in the true sense, they are non-aligned. There is a reason why the US based subs out of Perth in WW2.

The east coast of Australia is good for projecting power to the wider pacific and fending off fleets from the East coast trade routes and the outer SCS islands. Which is why we built the original sub base there. While the east coast looks pretty blank, look at actual shipping routes and bathometry and key spots appear.
1597927869531.png
1597927919277.png

From the east coast you get a lot of deep water access into the SCS rather than from FBW where its all shallow stuff (or time consuming) depending on which way you want to go.

Ultimately two bases gives a lot more option and makes it much harder to track and counter Australia's submarines. Australia also tends to operate with the US and the US has most of their assets and facilities in the Pacific. Also there is ~20 million people living on the East coast verse almost 2m on the west coast.

Momote/Manus is a nice spot, far enough away that its not in immediate threat sitting just on the edge outside of China A2/AD. Plenty of deep water, plenty of nearby trade routes going to China/Korea/Japan.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Seeing the deep water in eastern Indonesian waters made me think of the Wallace Line. All of a sudden you can see why.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
There are some massively deep waters around the place. But also some very shallow seas. You can see the history of the region in the terrain of the ocean.

The SCS is often thought as shallow, but the reefs where china has done a lot of reclamation are actually quite deep. Its not just about depth, terrain, currents, temp etc are also important. Its also odd how China claims more than EEZ where clearly the shelf drops off.
 

oldsig127

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
This OPV looks very similar to Lürssens' Darussalam class OPV from the Royal Brunei Navy
I'd be astonished if it didn't. The Arafura class is based on the Darussalam class design by Lurssen

oldsig
 

walter

Active Member
Well She's arriving at Vlissingen :

RSV Nuyina has been towed from Galati to Vlissingen, where it will be put into operation. The ship is expected to arrive at vlissingen's speech on the night of next Friday, after which it will be moored at damen's shipyard. The ship will be delivered in 2021, after which it will operate from its home port of Hobart to Tasmania, where the AAD headquarters is located.

 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
While it's a nice photo the lack of technical knowledge by some now writing in service newspapers and the like irritates me. Stuart isn't beginning her approach; she's in the waiting position with both RAS stations occupied (and she's not about to do an astern refuel). That's not a dig at DDG38; the official release said the same thing. Unfortunately, one constantly sees such errors cropping up in Navy News and other similar pubs; it doesn't do their credibility much good.
 

Massive

Well-Known Member
As to Lobrum from a military conflict stand point and even peace time it opens options for the RAN to not sail from just FBW to the SCS meaning china needs to monitor the south end but rather allows assets from FBE to move against it from the east. For surface ships here nor there but for submarines it means china having to split their force from one point to two, well at least in VERY simple terms if I understand it correctly.
Very hard to see how a presence at Lobrum is sustainable in a conflict situation.

You would need to supply it and you are going to end up with a joint force there equivalent to a third of the ADF (probably needing a brigade sixe land element for a start).

Ending up with a third of the army isolated in the far North of PNG would be very worrying.

Peacetime yes, though with a rapid retreat if conflict breaks out.

Regards,

Massive
 

Massive

Well-Known Member
And the squeeze is only going to get worse as they go from the 121m long Anzacs to the 150m long Hunters, we are going from the current 3 Amphibs and 1-2 AORs, to 2 Amphibs, 2 JSS and 2 AORs, the Arafura’s will need more space when they visit compared to the Armidale’. While there is only a moderate increase in Ship numbers, the combined displacement of the fleet will double between 2010 and 2040.
I for one love being able to look down on FBE when in Sydney and see which ships are in.

And rafting occurs now - is this a big issue going forward.

I hope FBE stays right where it is.

Just a personal opinion.

Regards,

Massive
 

Morgo

Well-Known Member
Very hard to see how a presence at Lobrum is sustainable in a conflict situation.

You would need to supply it and you are going to end up with a joint force there equivalent to a third of the ADF (probably needing a brigade sixe land element for a start).

Ending up with a third of the army isolated in the far North of PNG would be very worrying.

Peacetime yes, though with a rapid retreat if conflict breaks out.

Regards,

Massive
Isn't this exactly the reason why its a joint base with the Yanks, so Army isn't stuck bearing the load by themselves?

We would still need a significant commitment but it's much more palatable if this is a 1/6 of our force versus the 1/3 you quote if we were doing it by ourselves. Having a few Arleigh Burkes bobbing up and down in the vicinity also wouldn't hurt.

If we find ourselves on our own then I think you may be right. But stopping our Pacific sea lanes being threatened by an aggressor seems like a fight we would have no choice but to win.
 

Boagrius

Well-Known Member
Some more footage of the RIMPAC 2020 SINKEX


Interesting that I have only ever seen Harpoon used in sea-skimming mode for these things. I was under the impression it had a terminal pop-up maneuver at its disposal to evade point defences and/or penetrate through the bottom of the hull to induce flooding. Never seen it actually used though?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top