Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[StingrayOZ]

I think after the Sea1000 incident things will be very, very tight. There is a lot at stake here.

 

[Jack Wyatt]

Nobody, except perhaps the decision makers, really knows when the winner will be announced. There is no real need to delay the decision until the end of July unless of course, it is a technical issue. I suspect that the other forum might be thinking that the decision will be put off until after the by-elections but there is no reason to do that. It isn't like a federal election where a government is in caretaker mode. If anything the government would like to time that announcement so that they will gain maximum benefit at those polls. I would tip that will be either the end of this month or early July.

My initial thoughts were that the Government was attempting to neutralise Rex Patrick's call to mandate the use of ASC and Austral in the build.

I hope like everyone else that the decision is made shortly but recognise the professionalism of the procurement process in that not a world has leaked out about the outcome.

 

[oldsig127]

My initial thoughts were that the Government was attempting to neutralise Rex Patrick's call to mandate the use of ASC and Austral in the build.

As the Frigates are to be built in SA, and the incumbent there is ASC, I would be astonished if they're not at least partly involved. As for Austal (not Austral) Rex has no chance unless they can somehow tow the lot across the Great Australian Bight

oldsig

 

[Jack Wyatt]

As the Frigates are to be built in SA, and the incumbent there is ASC, I would be astonished if they're not at least partly involved. As for Austal (not Austral) Rex has no chance unless they can somehow tow the lot across the Great Australian Bight

oldsig

The use of the word "mandate" is a strong indicator that he wants more than part involvement. We'll have to wait to see if this has legs or a decision is pending before end of June.

 

[ngatimozart]

Off topic, but has Rex Patrick renounced his kiwi citizenship?

 

[Milne Bay]

Major sonar upgrade for Collins

Australia’s Collins Class submarine fleet will receive significant sonar upgrades to extend its regional superiority.
The Collins’ legacy cylindrical array will be replaced with a Modular Cylindrical Array (MCA) based on Sonar 2076 submarine technology developed by Thales teams in the UK. The existing flank array will be replaced by the latest generation flank array from Thales teams in France.

Thales will work with local industry, including Raytheon, to deliver the upgrades for the six submarines that will integrate products from other Australian providers including Sonartech Atlas, and L3 Oceania.


Read more at Major sonar upgrade for Collins - Australian Defence Magazine

This has been something that has crossed my mind regularly in regard to the Sonar capability of the Collins Class.
I am glad to see that the federal government has also had the same thoughts
MB

 

[76mmGuns]

Speaking of the Oberon class, I was wondering if they might be in better shape than others their age, assuming decent maintenance. I ask, because the submarine fleet has never been fully crewed, so perhaps some subs have been used less, than had they been fully deployed.

Any ideas?

 

[oldsig127]

Now that the Canadian government has entered the decision phase for bids for the right to build 15 Canadian Surface Combatant (CSC) ships, it is time to give an opinion as to which of the three bids entered will be the best fit for Canada’s future naval fleet.
TL;DR

Perhaps more appropriate in the Canadian thread?

oldsig

 

[Systems Adict]

Perhaps more appropriate in the Canadian thread?

oldsig

I believe that similar 'content' was posted there, before being posted here, approx. 4 mins later....

Not saying that the content doesn't have merit, just stating the obvious / facts....

SA

 

[spoz]

Speaking of the Oberon class, I was wondering if they might be in better shape than others their age, assuming decent maintenance. I ask, because the submarine fleet has never been fully crewed, so perhaps some subs have been used less, than had they been fully deployed.

Any ideas?

Are you talking about RAN O Boats? Their systems are largely 50s/60s vintage, they were worked hard for many years, and the remaining ones are museums, razor blades or rusting away. They would be outclassed in the modern day, and their reactivation would be nearly impossible.

 

[76mmGuns]

Are you talking about RAN O Boats? Their systems are largely 50s/60s vintage, they were worked hard for many years, and the remaining ones are museums, razor blades or rusting away. They would be outclassed in the modern day, and their reactivation would be nearly impossible.

Argh.... I meant Collins class!!!

 

[Jack Wyatt]

This can't be good news for BAE, with the UK Defence Journal reporting HMS Tyne is to be reactivated to replace HMS Forth which will enter Portsmouth dockyard for rectification work. The article confirms defects on HMS Forth, built to replace HMS Tyne, are far more serious than first thought and relate to "the very poor standard of build"

A second decommissioned OPV is to be reactivated as the entire Batch 2 programme will now be delayed substantially.

 

[t68]

Migrated here as its RAN boats not Canadian.

SEA1000 is not a conventional version of the Barracuda Class SSN.
Barracuda is the reference design providing a base for a new conventional boat, it's no longer refered to as the "Shortfin Barracuda"
The following link provides some insight into the design process and should probably fit better into the RAN thread but seeing you made the statement, here it is.

Defence special report October 2017 — Sea1000

So its basically back to the future, when Gillard pulled the funding for a clean sheet design.
They have just set the overall dimensions nothing else, everything a free for all?

Thought that is why we went with a known boat as we don't have time to do it from a clean sheet.

 

[Todjaeger]

Migrated here as its RAN boats not Canadian.




So its basically back to the future, when Gillard pulled the funding for a clean sheet design.
They have just set the overall dimensions nothing else, everything a free for all?

Thought that is why we went with a known boat as we don't have time to do it from a clean sheet.

My impression has been that due to Australian requirements, the only way an existing design would have worked was if it was either an evolved version of the Collins-class SSG, or a version of the Japanese Soryu-class, as these were the only two diesel-electric boats with performance parameters close enough to what was needed.

Everything else would pretty much automatically have to be a clean sheet design.

Even using an "existing design" as the basis for a new design, at some point sufficient changes have been made so that little which is known about the 'parent design' is relevant to the evolved design. I am specifically referring to the relationship between the Swedish Vastergotland-class subs, and the RAN Collins-class subs.

 

[StingrayOZ]

It will be interesting to see what comes out of sea1000. The basic hull change that was mentioned was it being 1m shorter than the donor barracuda. I wouldn't be suprised if it ends up the same size as the french design and future flights are even longer.

Even the Japanese proposed Soryu, there were a huge number of changes required. It is a very good submarine, but it is designed to engage threats not far from port. Japan doesn't have 10,000 km transits to find threats. The Japanese have developed what they need to a very high level, but other parts don't get lots of development.

It really is going to be a new type of submarine. They are talking 18 knot transit speeds, 80+ day endurance and a submarine as big as the UK SSN outgoing Trafalgar class (a bit more narrow, but longer, as long as Los Angles). Its going to have longer endurance than the original french Barracuda SSN design. Mix of US and UK and French systems and sensors. The idea I think is that the Barracuda designed is benchmarked, so if the Barracuda equipment is sufficient, then use that, if not then MOTS. Subs aren't like surface ships, you don't have huge space, volume, weight, power, heat margins. They are more like aircraft or spacecraft, everything needs to be accounted for and there is very tight margins. Of the 3 designs, the French had at least some experience with long transits, SSN level systems and sensors. Its very edgy, full photonics mast, very low drag hull, narrow (about a meter wider than Collins) but very long (nearly 25m than collins), folding planes, pumpjet, its assumed it will have at least 4 diesels, so power generation it is going to be maybe double what the Japanese have, and 30-40% greater power than anything Collins could put out even with re-engine package. Operationally it will be like comparing starship enterprise with a row boat.

Nothing is clear, but I can see value in a design based off a french SSN hull. It's not completely clean sheet, and it incorporates design concepts and principles. There will also be a lot of opportunities for joint development between the french and Australians for systems. We won't be orphaned again.

Given we are openly talking about nuclear weapons again, probably not a bad idea to leave the door ajar to SSN development. If we build six or eight and then want to go SSN, then there are multiple options that facilitate that to happen. But I think the way lithium is developing, that won't really be needed.

 

[ASSAIL]

It's good to see some action on the Collins upgrades happening.
Thales have been contracted to provide new bow and flank sonars to ensure a regionally superior capability for Collins until the introduction of the future submarines
The sonars will be built at the Thales centre of excellence in Rydalmere, Western Sydney.

Thales Sonar Upgrades to Extend Australia’s Collins Class Submarine Capability | Thales Group

 

[BPFP]

This was already posted above. The same sonar on the UK Astutes, an impressive investment in the platform to keep them viable until the Shortfins become available.

 

[ASSAIL]

This was already posted above. The same sonar on the UK Astutes, an impressive investment in the platform to keep them viable until the Shortfins become available.

My apologies, missed that! I. Surprised that ADM didn't reference Thales, their article was verbatim.

 

[StingrayOZ]

Collins will be with us for a while yet, I wouldn't be surprised if other gear gets fitted that is likely to be incorporated for future subs. I imagine Collins will eventually drive around with very good sensors and weapons (ie upgradable things). I imagine it also de-risks Sea1000 a bit.

Sea1000 will just provide a new canvas (hull, propulsion etc) to put those things in. Integration is still one of the riskiest things, so if they can sort out the combat system talking to all the sensors and weapons then that will make the new subs a lot quicker, less risky and more capable, as well as more capable fleet until we fully replace Collins.

 

[Oberon]

Fairfax Press ( SHM, The Age, Canberra Times) has just posted on their web-sites that the Type 26 is tipped to win the SEA 5000 tender. Announcement to be made by the end of next week.

Australia tipped to buy British naval frigates in $35 billion deal with old partner