Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[Muar River]

I also noticed a physical model of the proposed SEA5000 Type 26.

Defence Technology Review : DTR NOV 2017, Page 1

It looks like it has 48 VLS upfront instead of the 24 on the British version.

On the downside they seem to be talking about a 2022 construction date instead of 2020.

The wording surrounding timing of construction is vague.

The DTR article must predate the recent advice on the FFG(X) programme. I do wonder how the USN decision impacts on our programme?

 

[ASSAIL]

Well, yes, but I can see why. Build a first of class in a class of nine, and take twice as long to finish the first ship because of teething problems, developing and optimising the build sequence, slow initial arrival of material, correcting drawing errors and whatever, and the press/opposition*/public will crucify the Government, Defence, the builder, the designer and the Navy.

Tell them in advance that it's a prototype, and tell the often enough that you can point it out as "expected" you have half a chance of getting to the second and subsequent hulls and proving that the continuous build is not a mistake, that a Royal Commission isn't needed to slow things down by another half decade, and that the build shouldn't instead be reduced to three unarmed frigates and a dozen whale watching boats to satisfy the Greens.

First of Class means *bugger all* to the average punter.

* "opposition* is whichever party is in opposition at the time, whether they fully supported the build initially or not, because that's what politicians do.

oldsig

A prototype is a trial of concept. We are building ships which have already been designed and based on proven performance fundamentals.
Calling the first ship a prototype is totally misleading.

 

[oldsig127]

A prototype is a trial of concept. We are building ships which have already been designed and based on proven performance fundamentals.
Calling the first ship a prototype is totally misleading.

Fair enough and true too, but sell that distinction to the great unwashed, especially given that the same is true of many products - including aircraft and cars - where the first iteration of a new type is inevitably the "prototype" despite being based on proven performance fundamentals and even large physical parts of an earlier type

oldsig.

 

[John Newman]

Fair enough and true too, but sell that distinction to the great unwashed, especially given that the same is true of many products - including aircraft and cars - where the first iteration of a new type is inevitably the "prototype" despite being based on proven performance fundamentals and even large physical parts of an earlier type

oldsig.

I think everyone is getting a bit too hung up on this word "prototype".

I'm doing this from my iPad (laptop died yesterday and I don't have access to the relevant APDR article from a month or so ago), if someone can find it, maybe they can cut and paste the relevant paras.

But from memory, there was a couple page interview with Pyne about a whole range of things he is responsible for.

Again from memory he used the word "prototype" referring to the first of class for SEA5000, and said that this ship would be the one that, during its service life, be the one that any enhancements or upgrades would be trialed on for the fleet of nine before they also received those upgrades during their service life.

But he also said it would be an "operational" ship too.

In a way HMAS Perth has become the "prototype" ship for the ASMD upgrades for the Anzac fleet too, but she is still an operational ship.

Anyway, that's my memory of the Pyne interview in APDR.

 

[blueorchid]

I can't link but a small report on page 4 of the Oz today says that the govt. is bringing forward the upgrades to Nulka. SEA 1397 5B will be installed on all Future Frigates, Anzacs, Hobarts and the LHDs over a 20 year period with the first spend reflected in the next MEO (mid year economic outlook).

The upgrades are considered vital in the circumstances unfolding on the Korean peninsular.

Pleased to help ASSAIL

Turnbull brings urgency to anti-missile upgrade

PRIMROSE RIORDAN

Malcolm Turnbull has brought forward a decision to upgrade the defence force’s anti-ship missile system ahead of regional security summits.

The government will start a multimillion-dollar spend to update the Nulka missile decoys so they can be installed in RAN ships from 2020.

Mr Turnbull, who is flying to Vietnam and The Philippines next week for talks with world leaders including Donald Trump, said events such as a the North Korean peninsular missile crisis meant it was a “vital” upgrade.

“It is vital our defence forces are equipped with the most technologically advanced capabilities,” he said. “Recent events in our region and the complex and growing threat environment means we must stay one step ahead.”

The final Nulka missile decoy produced under a 1999 $1 billion dollar contract with BAE systems was delivered in May.

The rocket propelled system is installed on ships and attempts to stop an enemy’s radio frequency guided anti-ship missiles from hitting a ship. It is one of Australia’s more successful defence exports, and has been supplied to the US Navy and the Royal Canadian Navy as well as the RAN.

While the government announced earlier this year that the yet-to-be-built future frigates would be equipped with the system, the upgrade of the current fleet was to be settled next year.

But the uncertain regional environment, and changing power dynamics in Asia has brought the decision forward, and a proposed $207 million will be spent over 20 years. The first spend is expected to be reflected in the next midyear economic outlook.

The Nulka missile decoy enhancements, under project SEA 1397 phase 5B, will be installed on the eight Anzac Class frigates, the three Hobart Class destroyers and on the Canberra Class landing helicopter docks, which do not have this capability.

“The advanced range and speed of modern anti-ship missiles present unique challenges for the defence of our Navy,” Defence Industry Minister Christopher Pyne said.

Cheers

 

[vonnoobie]

The wording surrounding timing of construction is vague.

The DTR article must predate the recent advice on the FFG(X) programme. I do wonder how the USN decision impacts on our programme?

Hopefully and likely not at all. We are more concerned about our own circumstances then that of the US especially if it means waiting around for god knows how many years with zero guarantee they will make a decision and stick to it, Is more likely we would affect there decisions as we will have our new frigates in the water before Canada or the UK.

 

[ADMk2]

Pleased to help ASSAIL

Turnbull brings urgency to anti-missile upgrade

PRIMROSE RIORDAN

Malcolm Turnbull has brought forward a decision to upgrade the defence force’s anti-ship missile system ahead of regional security summits.

The government will start a multimillion-dollar spend to update the Nulka missile decoys so they can be installed in RAN ships from 2020.

Mr Turnbull, who is flying to Vietnam and The Philippines next week for talks with world leaders including Donald Trump, said events such as a the North Korean peninsular missile crisis meant it was a “vital” upgrade.

“It is vital our defence forces are equipped with the most technologically advanced capabilities,” he said. “Recent events in our region and the complex and growing threat environment means we must stay one step ahead.”

The final Nulka missile decoy produced under a 1999 $1 billion dollar contract with BAE systems was delivered in May.

The rocket propelled system is installed on ships and attempts to stop an enemy’s radio frequency guided anti-ship missiles from hitting a ship. It is one of Australia’s more successful defence exports, and has been supplied to the US Navy and the Royal Canadian Navy as well as the RAN.

While the government announced earlier this year that the yet-to-be-built future frigates would be equipped with the system, the upgrade of the current fleet was to be settled next year.

But the uncertain regional environment, and changing power dynamics in Asia has brought the decision forward, and a proposed $207 million will be spent over 20 years. The first spend is expected to be reflected in the next midyear economic outlook.

The Nulka missile decoy enhancements, under project SEA 1397 phase 5B, will be installed on the eight Anzac Class frigates, the three Hobart Class destroyers and on the Canberra Class landing helicopter docks, which do not have this capability.

“The advanced range and speed of modern anti-ship missiles present unique challenges for the defence of our Navy,” Defence Industry Minister Christopher Pyne said.

Cheers

So let me get this right, we need an upgraded Nulka in 2020 because of the ‘North Korean situation’ ? Right... That’s an absolute war winner right there... I’m sure the ‘urgency’ of this program has nothing at all to do with the fact that this system is partly manufactured in Australia?

We face an ‘urgent’ situation, yet we don’t however urgently require any new anti-ship or land attack missiles, SM-6, any ballistic missile defence capability, a more rapid Phalanx Block 1B roll out or fitment to the Canberra Class LHD or any other increased force protection measures for the entire rest of the ADF due to the ‘North Korean situation’...

I can’t wait for this lot to be kicked out. They are becoming more deserving of it day after day.

 

[ASSAIL]

So let me get this right, we need an upgraded Nulka in 2020 because of the ‘North Korean situation’ ? Right... That’s an absolute war winner right there... I’m sure the ‘urgency’ of this program has nothing at all to do with the fact that this system is partly manufactured in Australia?

We face an ‘urgent’ situation, yet we don’t however urgently require any new anti-ship or land attack missiles, SM-6, any ballistic missile defence capability, a more rapid Phalanx Block 1B roll out or fitment to the Canberra Class LHD or any other increased force protection measures for the entire rest of the ADF due to the ‘North Korean situation’...

I can’t wait for this lot to be kicked out. They are becoming more deserving of it day after day.

The current lot are no star performers but given the spending promises of the opposition I would fear a repeat of them using defence as a piggy bank to fund them just as their predecessors did.
At least we know defence spending is reasonably secure with the current mob.
Sorry for OT but be careful what you wish for.

 

[t68]

The current lot are no star performers but given the spending promises of the opposition I would fear a repeat of them using defence as a piggy bank to fund them just as their predecessors did.
At least we know defence spending is reasonably secure with the current mob.
Sorry for OT but be careful what you wish for.

Agree 100%, Shortens just a repeat of the Rudd Gillard Rudd years

 

[ADMk2]

The current lot are no star performers but given the spending promises of the opposition I would fear a repeat of them using defence as a piggy bank to fund them just as their predecessors did.
At least we know defence spending is reasonably secure with the current mob.
Sorry for OT but be careful what you wish for.

I know but the sooner this lot loses, the sooner the rubbish currently infesting that part of town will be gone and perhaps some normalcy can return...

 

[oldsig127]

I know but the sooner this lot loses, the sooner the rubbish currently infesting that part of town will be gone and perhaps some normalcy can return...

AFTER the two years spent writing yet another new White Paper.

oldsig

 

[Flexson]

Anyone seen the new Defence Industry TV ads?

Also new website defenceindustry.gov.au

Work force behind the Defence force. I like it.

 

[Muar River]

A link to a SMH article today on Navantia/future frigate. Andrew Davies from ASPI says the future frigate programme is regarded as a two horse race, between Navantia and BAE?

An interesting statement from Navantia's chief operating officer

Navantia bristles at the suggestion that the Type 26 is the stealthier option: "Our ship is as capable as the Type 26 at anti-submarine warfare ... our ship is more capable in other aspects like anti-air warfare – with new threats like North Korea this is very important," says Mateo-Guerrero

Bull v Lion: allegiances and new alliances form backdrop to warships bid

 

[Trackmaster]

I know but the sooner this lot loses, the sooner the rubbish currently infesting that part of town will be gone and perhaps some normalcy can return...

This lot will lose the next election.

All that matters is that the two major naval contracts, the armoured vehicle contract and the extra Abrams are signed and budget commitments are locked in.

We'll have six years of Labor disaster and then an awakening, just in time for the delivery of the first new frigate.

 

[John Fedup]

Hopefully and likely not at all. We are more concerned about our own circumstances then that of the US especially if it means waiting around for god knows how many years with zero guarantee they will make a decision and stick to it, Is more likely we would affect there decisions as we will have our new frigates in the water before Canada or the UK.

Australian frigates will be in the water before Canada’s for sure but the UK has started its first Type 26 so Australia won’t beat the UK barring some unforeseen problem.

 

[hauritz]

The wording surrounding timing of construction is vague.

The DTR article must predate the recent advice on the FFG(X) programme. I do wonder how the USN decision impacts on our programme?

If anything it will be the other way around. I wouldn't be surprised if the winner of SEA5000 also proved to be almost a perfect fit for the FFG(x).

Could be an excellent opportunity for Australia to push technologies such as Ceafar fully integrated with Aegis.

 

[Muar River]

If anything it will be the other way around. I wouldn't be surprised if the winner of SEA5000 also proved to be almost a perfect fit for the FFG(x).

Could be an excellent opportunity for Australia to push technologies such as Ceafar fully integrated with Aegis.

You are correct. The USN may be interested in the winner of SEA5000.fior FFG(x).

 

[StingrayOZ]

Australian frigates will be in the water before Canada’s for sure but the UK has started its first Type 26 so Australia won’t beat the UK barring some unforeseen problem.

I would hazard to say that I think the first Sea5000 frigate will be Full Operating Capability before the UK's.

 

[ASSAIL]

I would hazard to say that I think the first Sea5000 frigate will be Full Operating Capability before the UK's.

I'm not sure why you would conclude this, first steel has already been cut on the Clyde and this is two years before it happens in Adelaide.
The UK is not fitting anything extraordinary on its T26 with both weapons and CMS being similar to the T23.
In Oz we must integrate Aegis and 9LV with a new L band addition to CEAFAR and although the gap between construction of the AWDs and 5000 is small we would have still lost expertise.
If anything I suggest the Brits gestation will be shorter than ours.

 

[StingrayOZ]

I'm not sure why you would conclude this, first steel has already been cut on the Clyde and this is two years before it happens in Adelaide.
The UK is not fitting anything extraordinary on its T26 with both weapons and CMS being similar to the T23.
In Oz we must integrate Aegis and 9LV with a new L band addition to CEAFAR and although the gap between construction of the AWDs and 5000 is small we would have still lost expertise.
If anything I suggest the Brits gestation will be shorter than ours.

I guess we will see.
Political interference will be the overriding factor. I'm not convinced that the UK top level pollies can leave it alone. Particularly given issues with the type 45 and and the very likely situation of the security situation deteriorating.

There can be delays even with a previously built MOTS acquisitions.