Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Here is something I have been pondering for a bit. Does anyone have an idea on what the opportunity costs might be if the SEA 1180 and/or the SEA 5000 projects are not fitted with some degree of modular or containerized combat systems?

I ask because it seems that some decisions need to be made soon (if they are not already just waiting announcement) in order for construction to start in the next couple of years. If designs not including modular systems are selected (or an orphan system for that matter) I suspect that it would be rather arduous to retrofit the capability during a future major upgrade.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Here is something I have been pondering for a bit. Does anyone have an idea on what the opportunity costs might be if the SEA 1180 and/or the SEA 5000 projects are not fitted with some degree of modular or containerized combat systems?

I ask because it seems that some decisions need to be made soon (if they are not already just waiting announcement) in order for construction to start in the next couple of years. If designs not including modular systems are selected (or an orphan system for that matter) I suspect that it would be rather arduous to retrofit the capability during a future major upgrade.
I'm unsure of containerised combat system?
Aegis has been chosen as the base system with SAAB 9LV front of house for 5000. LM will be the integrators for the non US sourced systems such as CEAFAR L band
9LV has been chosen for 1180
SEA 5000 will wear 5/62 main gun and 48 cell Mk41 plus dual CIWS/SEARAM (not determined)
What else remains? Or am I being slow off the mark?
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I'm unsure of containerised combat system?
Aegis has been chosen as the base system with SAAB 9LV front of house for 5000. LM will be the integrators for the non US sourced systems such as CEAFAR L band
9LV has been chosen for 1180
SEA 5000 will wear 5/62 main gun and 48 cell Mk41 plus dual CIWS/SEARAM (not determined)
What else remains? Or am I being slow off the mark?
Containerized weapon systems is referring to either StanFlex modules, or what has (is?) being developed for the USN LCS.

From my perspective, the route the USN has taken so far with LCS modules seems to be a bit of a dead end, or perhaps attempting a bridge too far. As I understand it the LCS 'modules' have been too heavy to permit much flexibility aboard a LCS, and given their compositions can take weeks to swap out when docked.

The significantly smaller StanFlex modules can be swapped out in hours. A significant part of that seems to be due to the Danish modular system has just the weapons containerized and swappable. The Danes had the sensors and electronics fitted to the ships, with multi-purpose workstations that could be reconfigured depending on what type module the workstation was going to be controlling for a particular deployment.

The last I had read about the LCS modules, it seemed that the USN was expecting to change some of the sensor and electronics fitouts depending on what type of LCS module was to be carried.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
The Danes have put a variable depth sonar in a Stanflex module (4 in stock), command & control gear for MCM drones (5), & SIGINT/ELINT kit (1).

They also have a couple of oceanography modules.

But yes, most of the sensors & electronics are core parts of the ship's fitout.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
The Danes have put a variable depth sonar in a Stanflex module (4 in stock), command & control gear for MCM drones (5), & SIGINT/ELINT kit (1).

They also have a couple of oceanography modules.

But yes, most of the sensors & electronics are core parts of the ship's fitout.
From what I recall, one of the LCS modules being worked on was supposed to be for ASW operations using a what was normally a permanently fitted hull-mounted sonar in the module.

Fitting kit which is intended to be deployed off/away from a vessel, like a towed sonar array or ROVs is one thing. Even SIGINT or ELINT kit (assuming the module has clearance above it) makes sense since the signal receivers/processors can be connected directly to the appropriate arrays. Having what is normally a hull-mounted sonar array part of a module just seems like a recipe for problems. Either the array cannot get where it needs to be (in the water) to be effective, or there will be problems connecting the array to the requisite controlling workstations. More likely both situations will be problematic.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Modularity is good for some flexibility in certain roles.

I think at the OPV level that can work. You can put a lot of things into two or three shipping containers. Most of the Sea1180 offer that level of capability.

* UAV operations
* UUV operations
* Hydrographic operations
* Mine clearing support
* Diving team support
* Special forces + equipment
* HDAR
* Medical
* Piracy
* Antarctic
* Piracy

While not perfect, they offer an improved level of capability for something that the type of ship doesn't do very often.

I think it gets a lot trickier when you try to tie in things like Anti-submarine warfare, anti-surface warfare and high end functions that really need to be an essential part of the ships design. Those should be integrated at at what ever level you can live with.

Even the US is moving away from ASW, ASuW modules because its very hard to package that type of capability.

With Sea5000 you are really in the realm of fully integrated ships. The flexibility comes in the VLS. You can load Asroc, SM2, SM3, Sm6, ESSM, TACTOM, LRAM, JSM, Harpoon etc. Depending on threats, your mission and other ships in the fleet. Embarked helos also make up some of that flexibility.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Containerized weapon systems is referring to either StanFlex modules, or what has (is?) being developed for the USN LCS.

From my perspective, the route the USN has taken so far with LCS modules seems to be a bit of a dead end, or perhaps attempting a bridge too far. As I understand it the LCS 'modules' have been too heavy to permit much flexibility aboard a LCS, and given their compositions can take weeks to swap out when docked.

The significantly smaller StanFlex modules can be swapped out in hours. A significant part of that seems to be due to the Danish modular system has just the weapons containerized and swappable. The Danes had the sensors and electronics fitted to the ships, with multi-purpose workstations that could be reconfigured depending on what type module the workstation was going to be controlling for a particular deployment.

The last I had read about the LCS modules, it seemed that the USN was expecting to change some of the sensor and electronics fitouts depending on what type of LCS module was to be carried.
SEA 5000 will not be containerised although the T26 certainly can carry a number of containers, not sure of the other two and all the CMS is open architecture.
Regarding SEA 1180, I think the door remains open for modular upgrades in the future. All three have container berthage and all have 9LV open architecture.
There have been hints that future hulls beyond the initial 12 may have any of ASW, Hydro and MW modules included but that will be a decade away.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Modularity is good for some flexibility in certain roles.

I think at the OPV level that can work. You can put a lot of things into two or three shipping containers. Most of the Sea1180 offer that level of capability.

* UAV operations
* UUV operations
* Hydrographic operations
* Mine clearing support
* Diving team support
* Special forces + equipment
* HDAR
* Medical
* Piracy
* Antarctic
* Piracy

While not perfect, they offer an improved level of capability for something that the type of ship doesn't do very often.

I think it gets a lot trickier when you try to tie in things like Anti-submarine warfare, anti-surface warfare and high end functions that really need to be an essential part of the ships design. Those should be integrated at at what ever level you can live with.

Even the US is moving away from ASW, ASuW modules because its very hard to package that type of capability.

With Sea5000 you are really in the realm of fully integrated ships. The flexibility comes in the VLS. You can load Asroc, SM2, SM3, Sm6, ESSM, TACTOM, LRAM, JSM, Harpoon etc. Depending on threats, your mission and other ships in the fleet. Embarked helos also make up some of that flexibility.
I do see the potential for using some StanFlex modules even aboard SEA 5000. There would of course be a range of permanently fitted weapons and sensor/control systems, like a 5"/127 mm gun and strike length Mk 41 VLS which could fit larger/longer missiles, as well as quad-packed ESSM. Where StanFlex modules could provide value is by permitting a quick and easy path to 'up-gun' a vessel immediately before a deployment if the threat situation calls for it. If the SEA 5000 design were to include several StanFlex sockets in positions similar to where some are located on the Absalon-class support vessels of the RDN then the design could add extra ESSM VLS cells beyond whatever the Mk 41 VLS load out was.

As things are done now, the ANZAC-class FFH's are not permanently fitted with Harpoon AShM's, instead being fitted with either 2x2 or 4x4 launchers as deployments deem it necessary. Having Harpoon (or some replacement AShM in the future) launchers already containerized would I suspect make it faster, easier, and safer/more reliable to swap out as needed.
 

oldsig127

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
My question is "How does Ben Coleman know what was required and what was proposed, above what is public knowledge?"

A subsidiary question is "Does ASPI - an independent think tank, not a government department - have privileged access so that the report is new information, or has it been extrapolated from what has been publicly shown by Damen et al and is so not more valid than any speculation we already have in this forum"?

Maybe I'm just a cynic, but it seems to me we see an awful lot of ivory tower prognostication from ASPI which is subsequently forgotten in the presence of actual events.

oldsig
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
My question is "How does Ben Coleman know what was required and what was proposed, above what is public knowledge?"

A subsidiary question is "Does ASPI - an independent think tank, not a government department - have privileged access so that the report is new information, or has it been extrapolated from what has been publicly shown by Damen et al and is so not more valid than any speculation we already have in this forum"?

Maybe I'm just a cynic, but it seems to me we see an awful lot of ivory tower prognostication from ASPI which is subsequently forgotten in the presence of actual events.

oldsig
I don't know the answer to the above or the winner of Sea 1180.
The question I ask is, what will best serve the RAN in the years to come? A combined fleet of 24 OPV's and Destroyers all capable of helicopter operation with integral flight deck and hangers or the alternative. A fleet of the above reduced in aviation capability by 50 % through lack of foresight in the specification of what is expected in our new OPV's.

As far as the OPV's armament, well this has being discussed many times before and I confess to have been initially an advocate for a more robust corvette style weapons fit. Over time I have conceded to the constabulary arguments and requirements and thought a small 30mm sized weapon may suffice.
Interestingly however, having a look at Singapore's new 80m Independence class I must confess I've gone full circle in my opinion as I now find it difficult not to think we are potentially short changing ourselves If we limit our new OPV's to a single small Cal weapon.

I guess we paint our ships grey for a reason.That being they're warships and as such they should be equipped appropriately!

Singapore recognises this requirement,I trust we do as well.

Hopefully I will be pleasantly surprised when the winner is announced.


Regards S
 

t68

Well-Known Member
I don't know the answer to the above or the winner of Sea 1180.
The question I ask is, what will best serve the RAN in the years to come? A combined fleet of 24 OPV's and Destroyers all capable of helicopter operation with integral flight deck and hangers or the alternative. A fleet of the above reduced in aviation capability by 50 % through lack of foresight in the specification of what is expected in our new OPV's.

As far as the OPV's armament, well this has being discussed many times before and I confess to have been initially an advocate for a more robust corvette style weapons fit. Over time I have conceded to the constabulary arguments and requirements and thought a small 30mm sized weapon may suffice.
Interestingly however, having a look at Singapore's new 80m Independence class I must confess I've gone full circle in my opinion as I now find it difficult not to think we are potentially short changing ourselves If we limit our new OPV's to a single small Cal weapon.

I guess we paint our ships grey for a reason.That being they're warships and as such they should be equipped appropriately!

Singapore recognises this requirement,I trust we do as well.

Hopefully I will be pleasantly surprised when the winner is announced.


Regards S
Not a very good comparison for the ADF, whilst they are primary warships in the coastal areas, whereas our new coastal patrol boats have a far bigger domestic role expanding border force patrol boats over a far larger area than the Singaporeans.

The Singaporeans have a police coast guard which not long ago upgraded their fleet with Damen StanPatrol 3507 armed with a 25mm Typhoon mount, whereas the Cape Class border patrol boats are armed with a pair of 50cal guns but have are range of 4000 nm. Similer roles but far larger operating area.

I guess the alternative is to expand the role of border force in a similar fashion to the USCG as it also supports the USN in offensive operations.

Border force patrol boats and armed up to the size envisaged for RAN coastal patrol boats and the RAN AWD/ASW frigates destroyers and regional corvettes (2500/3000t?)
 

swerve

Super Moderator
From what I recall, one of the LCS modules being worked on was supposed to be for ASW operations using a what was normally a permanently fitted hull-mounted sonar in the module.

Having what is normally a hull-mounted sonar array part of a module just seems like a recipe for problems. Either the array cannot get where it needs to be (in the water) to be effective, or there will be problems connecting the array to the requisite controlling workstations. More likely both situations will be problematic.
Indeed. I don't understand why anyone would consider it as an option for a flex module.
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I do see the potential for using some StanFlex modules even aboard SEA 5000. There would of course be a range of permanently fitted weapons and sensor/control systems, like a 5"/127 mm gun and strike length Mk 41 VLS which could fit larger/longer missiles, as well as quad-packed ESSM. Where StanFlex modules could provide value is by permitting a quick and easy path to 'up-gun' a vessel immediately before a deployment if the threat situation calls for it. If the SEA 5000 design were to include several StanFlex sockets in positions similar to where some are located on the Absalon-class support vessels of the RDN then the design could add extra ESSM VLS cells beyond whatever the Mk 41 VLS load out was.

As things are done now, the ANZAC-class FFH's are not permanently fitted with Harpoon AShM's, instead being fitted with either 2x2 or 4x4 launchers as deployments deem it necessary. Having Harpoon (or some replacement AShM in the future) launchers already containerized would I suspect make it faster, easier, and safer/more reliable to swap out as needed.
I have a problem with this on the basis the three designs in question are not fitted for Stanflex (and there are a limited number of such modules) or any other modular system what would support a 127mm gun or modular Mk41. To fit these the design will need to be reworked. Given the designs are supposed to pretty close to standard I don’t see it.

For containerised modules ...... yes I can see modular towed array (incluing autonomous towed array ‘drones’ that are under development .... and yes I know drone is a bollocks term), mine warfare and others but I don’t see anything that will alter the top sides.
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
My question is "How does Ben Coleman know what was required and what was proposed, above what is public knowledge?"

A subsidiary question is "Does ASPI - an independent think tank, not a government department - have privileged access so that the report is new information, or has it been extrapolated from what has been publicly shown by Damen et al and is so not more valid than any speculation we already have in this forum"?

Maybe I'm just a cynic, but it seems to me we see an awful lot of ivory tower prognostication from ASPI which is subsequently forgotten in the presence of actual events.

oldsig
I suspect a lot is speculation noting Mr Coleman uses words such as “it seems” wiht respect to helicopter capability. Certainly the tender evaluation team would not be freely providing information and nobody is sure what Damen have offered (noting different reports have indicated it is either STAN patrol, OPV1400 or OPV1800 at any given time).

If Damen have essentially gone for a large patrol boat it will be interesting to see how that rates agains the Fassmer and Lussen options.

The issue is nobody in the public domain can give visibility of the RFT content ....and that includes ASPI. To be honest I find their reports less than compelling and are essentially opinion pieces.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
Is this an indication on how Sea 5000 might pan out?

A bit of reading between the lines might be involved here but ... but a couple of Australian companies have just picked up contracts to provide for work on the type 26 frigate.

Christopher Pyne also praised BAE Systems Australia as having had a long and successful history of closely working with Australia's suppliers.

Australian companies bag UK Type 26 contracts | Naval Today

The confirmation that the winning bidder did not have to work with the ASC, all the talk of the first ship being a prototype, the government's desire to export more defence equipment and the strategic benefits of dealing with Great Britain seem to be pointing more and more towards the Type 26 winning this selection.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
I suspect a lot is speculation noting Mr Coleman uses words such as “it seems” wiht respect to helicopter capability. Certainly the tender evaluation team would not be freely providing information and nobody is sure what Damen have offered (noting different reports have indicated it is either STAN patrol, OPV1400 or OPV1800 at any given time).

If Damen have essentially gone for a large patrol boat it will be interesting to see how that rates agains the Fassmer and Lussen options.

The issue is nobody in the public domain can give visibility of the RFT content ....and that includes ASPI. To be honest I find their reports less than compelling and are essentially opinion pieces.
Maybe nobody in the public domain has seen the RFT, but comments by Harald Fassmer in today's Australian would seem to confirm that his contender is the only ship that is being offered with hanger facilities. He responded to Ben Coleman's comments by stating that they believed that having a hanger gave their ship the edge in this competition.
 

oldsig127

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Maybe nobody in the public domain has seen the RFT, but comments by Harald Fassmer in today's Australian would seem to confirm that his contender is the only ship that is being offered with hanger facilities. He responded to Ben Coleman's comments by stating that they believed that having a hanger gave their ship the edge in this competition.
I take it that this means that the other competitors have been kind enugh to tell Fassmer what they propose while assiduously avoiding letting the Australian great unwashed only guess?

IMO this is another example of a salesman pitching his product. And based on information that we all have already - which is at best the *guesses* of the press published by "Defence Jurnalists" with a track record of misunderstaning most everything to ensure it fits into their own preconceptions.

Wait and see. This press speculation is getting on my nerves. But then, whoever heard of a newspaper leaving a blank space where nothing happened today

oldsig
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I have a problem with this on the basis the three designs in question are not fitted for Stanflex (and there are a limited number of such modules) or any other modular system what would support a 127mm gun or modular Mk41. To fit these the design will need to be reworked. Given the designs are supposed to pretty close to standard I don’t see it.

For containerised modules ...... yes I can see modular towed array (incluing autonomous towed array ‘drones’ that are under development .... and yes I know drone is a bollocks term), mine warfare and others but I don’t see anything that will alter the top sides.
I do not mean having containerized 127 mm or Mk 41 VLS systems. Aside from such systems do not exist, I suspect their size and mass are too great for them to be containerized. Certainly not if they are to fit into the footprint of a StanFlex module socket.

What I had in mind is somewhat different from what you seem to be thinking.

Certain systems like the 127 mm gun, strike length Mk 41 VLS, and likely the Mk 32 LWT launchers would be permanently fitted to the SEA 5000 vessels. If (BIG IF) the RAN adopted the StanFlex modular system, then new/additional StanFlex modules could be designed and built. If this were to happen, then I could see the RAN having some Harpoon AShM StanFlex modules, or Mk 48 Mod 3 or Mk 56 VLS modules which could carry 6 or 12 ESSM each. The purpose of the StanFlex sockets and modules aboard a RAN frigate would not be to replace permanent weapon mounts, but rather an easy and rapid path to augment a frigate's armament beyond the 'normal' level and tailor that augmentation as needed.

A potential example of what I mean could be as follows. Assume that the SEA 5000 design ends up with a 40 cell strike length Mk 41 VLS, LWT launchers, a 127 mm gun, naval helicopters, and 3 StanFlex module sockets mounted amidships. With the potential flexibility the 3 StanFlex sockets can provide, the Mk 41 VLS missile loadout could easily be tweaked for what the perceived threats were. If it was felt that ASW would be of greater importance, then some of the VLS cells could be loaded with additional ASROC missiles instead of quad-packed ESSM. If the threat was believed to require greater long-ranged SAM's, then more SM-2, SM-3 or SM-6 missiles could be carried in place of quad-packed ESSM. The vessel could still be kitted with ESSM by having them twin-packed in the StanFlex modules. At the same time if the conditions for a deployment were believed to be normal or non-threatening, the StanFlex modules could be removed, the sockets covered, and the Mk 41 VLS loaded accordingly.

If planned for appropriately, that would seem a better path to expand a warship's capabilities as needed than leaving space & weight available to permanently add an additional Mk 41 VLS during a future major upgrade.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
I don't get the advantage of having the VLS located inside another container that is then bolted to the deck. You are then further constrained by the deck space (you take up more deck space), reduced top weight (its now higher up and heavier) and you need additional weight and support for that structure.

Things like harpoons (or NSM/JSM) are already in boltable box modules. Phalanx and SeaRAM are already modular and can be moved when needed.

Weapons can be unloaded and loaded in VLS tubes. So unless we are going to save a lot of money by buying less VLS launchers I don't see the advantage. VLS launchers are fairly cheap compared to the missiles inside them.

Looking at any of the Sea5000 ships I don't see where there would be an appropriate spot to put any of these modules without eating space/weight already dedicated to other purposes.These ships are using their spaces pretty effectively.

If we want to talk about upgunning then there are options:
Include more VLS perhaps tactical or self defence. The F-105 is rumored to be able to take 64 VLS, obviously taking space currently used for other purposes.
Changing the two 25mm bushmasters to 30mm with anti-air munitions.
Changing Phalanx to SeaRAM or perhaps an additional mount.
Upgrading 8 Harpoon to 12 NSM
Installing SM-6 and SM-3
ESSM Block II

On the Sea1180 the Fassmer has space for 3 containers in a somewhat open rear deck area. It might be possible to put torpedo launchers, possibly even NSM launchers etc in this space. The Fassmer OPV80 Naval has space for a 8 missiles and seaRAM or CIWS and can mount a 76mm (and is more like a frigate). I would imagine it would be possible to mount nulka decoys and underwater decoys onto an OPV. But I also feel spending too much upgunning the OPV is not effective use of money. There is almost always more capability we can buy for the AWD and Sea5000 ships.

I suspect Fassmer is the only one offering complete hanger and deck suitable for operating real helicopters.

Harald Fassmers comments can be found by googling "Germans bullish on patrol vessel bid" and opening in an incognetio window in chrome.

A recent Australian Strategic Policy Institute report has argued Defence’s proposed requirements for the vessels should have included capacity for a helicopter. The report, by former Defence Department analyst Ben Coleman, said the boats would be used to fight armed coastguard vessels, state-sponsored harassment by fishing vessels, pirates and armed terrorist groups. A lack of heli*copter facilities would restrict the navy’s ability to use the boats to fight future threats such as piracy, maritime terrorism and weapons proliferation, he said.
...
Mr Fassmer said the ships’ helicopter capabilities set their design apart. “We have a helicopter hangar, which is different,” he said. “You cannot have it outside without being protected from the harsh environmental conditions — with the salty seawater you need to have a helicopter hangar. I think that gives it great advantage.”
I do think the helicopter hangar should have been part of the requirements. I think we would have gotten 3 much more capably similar tenders. The fact ASPI and others are picking up on this I think will add pressure.

That being said, the Fassmer OPV80 meets everything I would want as an armchair nitwit. Good ship. If we were to pick them, I think the RAN would be very, very happy with what they get.
 
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