Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
I don't think F-35B are that desirable as a sea based fighter platform. Not for Australia. They are cool, but look past that..

Without blk IV they can't fire most munitions, like LRASM, Spear3etc. They are big, thirsty, expensive, heavy, platforms. Compromised a bit in all areas. The LHD are a bit small to operate them, they would only ever be a very light capability, and manned fighters have other costs associated with operations. Blast from the jet is also, just problematic for the ship. It just creates a highly expensive, highly resource intensive entity, with essentially only air defence capabilities, and essentially no strike capabilities. Even with blk IV, no JSM internal carry. Big old stealthy platform on sea spray, big and complex and expensive.. Really F-35B would really be about transporting them to expeditionary fields and them mostly operating from there, not every op being on the LHD flight deck.

MQ28, would be a much more realistic platform for LHD operations. Particularly with a few modifications to the LHD and MQ28, foldable wings, hook, under, carriage, wires on the LHD. So much range they are more like lilly pads, with many hours of flight time. No damaging jet blast. More like harrier operating needs. Much cheaper to acquire and operate, if an accident happens, you just go fish the platform out, no one is injured. If a land based MQ28 sees something an armed MQ28 could be sent out from the platform to intercept it.

MQ28 armed up with SDB, Spear3 or even JSM is very capable. We would be able to generate significant surveillance, CAP and strike capability at very long ranges. With operating costs mere fraction of even helo ops. You could afford to have one in the air for several hours, armed ready to go, or just recon.. No problems, and sustain ops 24/7 while doing it. Much more useful for the fleet, you would have organic air based radar, ISR, FLIR, tracking and identifying everything, absolutely everything within that grid reference. It wouldn't tie up man fighters, the RAAF could probably run ops from land based comfort if they wanted. But could easily be done from the LHD C&C centre with coffee and cake on standby.

Anything heavier comes in, scramble land based fighters and P8/E7.. You have your escorts armed with NSM, ESSM, TLAM.. etc.. Find anything interesting scramble MH60R to hit or dip or observe or rescue.

TBH while manned platforms are cool. A LHD with 6 MQ28 on deck probably has the same level of coolness.

I wonder if an aircraft like a OV-10 Bronco could come back into fashion. As it would be the perfect platform for Forward air control, could do carrier delivery (up to 1500kg), deploy troops, medi evac, light attack, sonarbouy deployment, torpedos, .. But controlling MQ28, could be its special deal. It could also carry and launch fairly large drones at significant distances via its rear door.

You can still buy them, there are a couple for sale, full digital cockpits.

There was a company looking at modern versions.

IMO this is more viable than operating MV22 for the ADF. Short field performance would be great, PNG, islands etc. Resupply by pallet drop or landing. Medi-evac is I think particularly useful. You would be able to fly much faster than a helo (at nearly 500kmph) at nearly 2000km..

It probably wouldn't be based on a LHD, but fly ops on to and off the platform. It doesn't need wires or traps to operate.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
The RAN is unlikely in the foreseeable future to have the budget to put a big enough fleet of fighters to sea to put a significant strike package together against a peer opponent.

The biggest force multiplier at this point is probably AEW&C, which Wedgetail should have enough endurance to cover in our local area.

If off board ranged strike is required there is always MH-60R and the Apache’s.
The MH-60R and Apaches are formidable assets.
Still early days for the later re the ADF but a solid capability well on the way.
Not everything has to be about fast air.

Trust the LHD’s are back to sea shortly so they can support many of the ADFs deployable assets.

Cheers S
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Also at 1/8th the cost, (MQ-28 significantly cheaper than F-35A Lightning II US$80~$100M+ Vs MQ-28 US$10~$15 million ) and we can build them in Toowoomba
You could build a small squadron for the purchase price. And operate it for even less. It would all be local money too. Not only that, it could be worked up pretty much straight away rather than waiting forever for F-35.

BAE showed a carrier based MQ28 render on a QE carrier. If such a thing was developed, it would be very popular. Basically any flattop would gain organic capabilities. And less as a weapons platform (although it could do that) but as a sensor platform.. For QE carriers, having this be your AEW platform would be particularly nice, much higher altitude, long endurance, low operating costs, etc.

RAAF would hate it, because planes and water complexes.

But we only have 2 LHD and both are broken. So Maybe that is a discussion about addressing those issues. We are so far away from F-35B on carriers. F-35 is a problematic platform for navies operating them.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
Also at 1/8th the cost, (MQ-28 significantly cheaper than F-35A Lightning II US$80~$100M+ Vs MQ-28 US$10~$15 million ) and we can build them in Toowoomba
I’m sceptical as to whether this aircraft could operate off the Canberra class, but I’d be happy to be proved wrong.
I’m still keeping an eye on what the Turkish Navy is doing with their LHD.

Cheers S
 

seaspear

Well-Known Member
I don't think F-35B are that desirable as a sea based fighter platform. Not for Australia. They are cool, but look past that..

Without blk IV they can't fire most munitions, like LRASM, Spear3etc. They are big, thirsty, expensive, heavy, platforms. Compromised a bit in all areas. The LHD are a bit small to operate them, they would only ever be a very light capability, and manned fighters have other costs associated with operations. Blast from the jet is also, just problematic for the ship. It just creates a highly expensive, highly resource intensive entity, with essentially only air defence capabilities, and essentially no strike capabilities. Even with blk IV, no JSM internal carry. Big old stealthy platform on sea spray, big and complex and expensive.. Really F-35B would really be about transporting them to expeditionary fields and them mostly operating from there, not every op being on the LHD flight deck.

MQ28, would be a much more realistic platform for LHD operations. Particularly with a few modifications to the LHD and MQ28, foldable wings, hook, under, carriage, wires on the LHD. So much range they are more like lilly pads, with many hours of flight time. No damaging jet blast. More like harrier operating needs. Much cheaper to acquire and operate, if an accident happens, you just go fish the platform out, no one is injured. If a land based MQ28 sees something an armed MQ28 could be sent out from the platform to intercept it.

MQ28 armed up with SDB, Spear3 or even JSM is very capable. We would be able to generate significant surveillance, CAP and strike capability at very long ranges. With operating costs mere fraction of even helo ops. You could afford to have one in the air for several hours, armed ready to go, or just recon.. No problems, and sustain ops 24/7 while doing it. Much more useful for the fleet, you would have organic air based radar, ISR, FLIR, tracking and identifying everything, absolutely everything within that grid reference. It wouldn't tie up man fighters, the RAAF could probably run ops from land based comfort if they wanted. But could easily be done from the LHD C&C centre with coffee and cake on standby.

Anything heavier comes in, scramble land based fighters and P8/E7.. You have your escorts armed with NSM, ESSM, TLAM.. etc.. Find anything interesting scramble MH60R to hit or dip or observe or rescue.

TBH while manned platforms are cool. A LHD with 6 MQ28 on deck probably has the same level of coolness.

I wonder if an aircraft like a OV-10 Bronco could come back into fashion. As it would be the perfect platform for Forward air control, could do carrier delivery (up to 1500kg), deploy troops, medi evac, light attack, sonarbouy deployment, torpedos, .. But controlling MQ28, could be its special deal. It could also carry and launch fairly large drones at significant distances via its rear door.

You can still buy them, there are a couple for sale, full digital cockpits.

There was a company looking at modern versions.

IMO this is more viable than operating MV22 for the ADF. Short field performance would be great, PNG, islands etc. Resupply by pallet drop or landing. Medi-evac is I think particularly useful. You would be able to fly much faster than a helo (at nearly 500kmph) at nearly 2000km..

It probably wouldn't be based on a LHD, but fly ops on to and off the platform. It doesn't need wires or traps to operate.
I would hope the mq-28 is being assessed for the Canberra class LH.Ds but I would also hope the MQ-25 air to air refueling drones are also assessed to join them these are drones that have been shown to be able to refuel the Super Hornets used by the U.S.N , being able to extend the range of air cover of escort aircraft or even the Wedgetail could be useful
 

Sandson41

Active Member
Someone here may be able to correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding (from posts on this forum, IIRC) is that the LHDs are not viewed by navy or national command as any kind of combatant.

They're huge and extremely (critically) useful transports. Transports with decent radars and built to military standards, but still transports. They're supposed to show up a day or two after and use their aviation assets to land material, and then barge the heavier stuff ashore. Or just deploy forces before the fighting starts, of course.

Anything that may tempt a commander to move them closer to an active combat zone is likely to be a hard sell indeed. If I understand correctly.
 

seaspear

Well-Known Member
Its what they are carrying that makes them a combatant ,if they are required to be as previously posted a frigate escort then there must be some risk
 

Sandson41

Active Member
Its what they are carrying that makes them a combatant ,if they are required to be as previously posted a frigate escort then there must be some risk
Excuse me, I misspoke. I meant, they are not intended to engage in combat. Any fighters, drones or launchers that detract from their role as transports are unlikely to be welcome, unless someone decides they're light fleet carriers now.
 

seaspear

Well-Known Member
Excuse me, I misspoke. I meant, they are not intended to engage in combat. Any fighters, drones or launchers that detract from their role as transports are unlikely to be welcome, unless someone decides they're light fleet carriers now.
But if they are carrying armored vehicles, helicopters and troops they can be asumed to be used for combat even as part of logistical train
 
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