Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

[Lofty_DBF]

Thanks Lofty,

Question on LOTE - the scope appears to have flexed a lot and in some sense is not locked down.

Is your impression that scope will be determined as they work through the process with HMAS Farncomb or is it set when the process begins?

Thanks in advance,

Massive

Parts of the LOTE program are locked down the navy doesn't want the LOTE refits taking longer than 2 years. As mentioned by the Minister of Defence the condition of the platforms will determine what extra work scope is required to enable the platform another 10 years of running life.

 

[Going Boeing]

So looking at the Block IV maintenance cycle (pic below) that means the RAN most likely get their subs after the first 12-month EDSRA docking period (after ~8.3 years / 100 months from initial sea trials). My bet would be on SSN 775, the 4th Block IV which started sea trials in mid-2023 and will therefore be due to finish its EDSRA in late 2032. At that point it should have ~23 years service life remaining (~2056), which lines up nicely with later AUKUS SSN deliveries.

I assume that you meant SSN 795, USS HYMAN G RICKOVER. It’s possible that the USN Submarine Service would be reluctant to let that one go as he was so influential in the development of nuclear powered submarines.

The first three Block 4 boats would have sufficient reactor fuel to suit the RAN requirements for the first two to be transferred (2032 & 2034) but they would not align with the EDSRA maintenance period as your chart showed.

This Wikipedia list of Virginia class submarines indicates that the last two Block 4 boats have not yet entered USN service.

 

[AndyinOz]

I had the same thoughts on SSN-795 that I wonder if it might be a no go as far as it being transferred and renamed. Thought in a way there might be a little bit of poetry in Australia getting her. Oregon or Montana could fit in the frame as far as I can tell regarding the desired number of years of useful life left for boat 1 of 3.

 

[H_K]

I assume that you meant SSN 795, USS HYMAN G RICKOVER. It’s possible that the USN Submarine Service would be reluctant to let that one go as he was so influential in the development of nuclear powered submarines.

The first three Block 4 boats would have sufficient reactor fuel to suit the RAN requirements for the first two to be transferred (2032 & 2034) but they would not align with the EDSRA maintenance period as your chart showed.

Yes sorry I meant SSN 795, not 775. Good point about the USN potentially not wanting to part with that name.

One thing I didn't mention is that EDSRAs have been taking significantly longer than planned due to the shipyard maintenance backlog. So a 2 or 3 year EDSRA (instead of the planned 12 months) would mean that it might be SSN 794 (or even 793) coming out of EDSRA in 2032. Problem solved... except longer EDSRAs pose their own issues and are probably bad all around as that would mean fewer operational SSNs and more pressure for the US to keep these hulls for its own needs.

 

[spoz]

At the time of his retirement there was a variety of views of Rickover, and not all of them particularly favourable. To some he was seen as a polarising figure who had used his influence with Congress for purposes which were not always for the overall benefit of the USN as a whole. At the same time, there were many who thought he had done much good; and even his detractors of the time acknowledged his importance in the early years of the Program

 

[devo99]

I assume that you meant SSN 795, USS HYMAN G RICKOVER. It’s possible that the USN Submarine Service would be reluctant to let that one go as he was so influential in the development of nuclear powered submarines.

With this said it would be fitting for the so called father of the nuclear navy to father a second nuclear navy from beyond the grave.

 

[Lolcake]

MSN

According to Pat Conroy they will be 6 years into their service life. So perhaps it will be the final 3 block IVs after all.. great outcome all round.

 

[iambuzzard]

MSN

According to Pat Conroy they will be 6 yesrs into their life. So perhaps it will be the final 3 block IVS.. great outcome all round.

Pat Conroy seems to be across his portfolio. His answers are clear and concise

 

[Massive]

Parts of the LOTE program are locked down the navy doesn't want the LOTE refits taking longer than 2 years. As mentioned by the Minister of Defence the condition of the platforms will determine what extra work scope is required to enable the platform another 10 years of running life.

Thanks Lofty,

I saw that the diesels and DC motor are no longer being replaced, and was wondering if there were further changes planned as the program evolves.

Your comment that the subs feel brand new coming out of Adelaide is reassuring. However, given reported challenges about the diesels suggest that there is a fair bit of risk being carried forward.

Regards,

Massive

 

[Lofty_DBF]

Thanks Lofty,

I saw that the diesels and DC motor are no longer being replaced, and was wondering if there were further changes planned as the program evolves.

Your comment that the subs feel brand new coming out of Adelaide is reassuring. However, given reported challenges about the diesels suggest that there is a fair bit of risk being carried forward.

Regards,

Massive

I'm unsure what future changes the government of the day will want or the Subs might require and I can only talk about what is already written in the public domain.
The current hedemora diesels are pretty reliable with very good SME knowledge onboard. The hedemora engines operate in a very hostile environment for a turbo engine. When snorting they have to cope with large differences in back pressure due to sea state induced depth changes and sea water in the induction system. The engines are pretty basic with not many things that will stop them when running unlike a highly monitored modern energy.

 

[spoz]

There were quality control and maintenance issues with the Hedemoras early in the life of the class, but SFAIK these have been overcome. My personal knowledge ends in the mid noughties, but Lofty’s comments would seem to confirm that.

 

[BSKS]

On LOTE, senate estimates yesterday clarified that the Attack class de-risk projects such as new main motor, diesels, AC etc are still options for LOTE provided the boat concerned can be returned to service within 2 years. ie if the boat is in relatively good condition, it may get some of the Attack class upgrades, if not the focus will be on refurbishing existing equipment and systems similar to FCD.

 

[Volkodav]

ASC's innovation in submarine maintenance - Australian Defence Magazine

The latest initiative to improve Collins Class submarine sustainment and availability levels has been revealed with the successful hull cut of HMAS Collins at ASC.

www.australiandefence.com.au

This was probably the single biggest change in Collins Class sustainment. Instead of working on systems insitu, with workers having to work around each other, the systems would be removed, refurbished, rebuilt or replaced concurrently.

 

[spoz]

That is the way they were built, after all - cans being outfitted and then welded together

 

[StingrayOZ]

On LOTE, senate estimates yesterday clarified that the Attack class de-risk projects such as new main motor, diesels, AC etc are still options for LOTE provided the boat concerned can be returned to service within 2 years. ie if the boat is in relatively good condition, it may get some of the Attack class upgrades, if not the focus will be on refurbishing existing equipment and systems similar to FCD.

I think that is the right approach.

With updated information I too am less hot on the idea of replacing the diesels, Apparently the MTU's would take up more space and have other issues which could negatively affect performance. Also it seems that after 20+ years, we now have them running very reliable. Its much more understandable in that context.

Some issues:

A decade of Collins subs mismanagement results in promotions all round, but alarm bells for AUKUS - Strategic Analysis Australia

Strategic Analysis Australia

strategicanalysis.org

PMB was looking at lithium ion, advanced lead acid (about 10% better) and nickel zinc batteries.

Nickel zinc/Lithium ion would give very good high current discharges. Double to triple the energy density of normal Lead acid. And similar to a deployed sub type lithium installation. You would still be limited on your snorts and sustained energy usage, but your initial pool would be much much larger. Or allow still a much larger battery (say double) but hull space and weight to be use for other upgrades (power train etc).

If we ever wanted a plan D, having a proven power train like that would sure be interesting. Still useful for UUV etc. Even for commercial and industrial applications elsewhere. Aircraft, boats, spacecraft etc. The good idea farie likes this. Maybe the last 3 boats could be fitted with such as setup. The big risk with Nickel zinc is battery life, which may be less relevant for those last 3 anyway.

According to Pat Conroy they will be 6 yesrs into their life. So perhaps it will be the final 3 block IVS.. great outcome all round.

Nice. That is pretty much ideal. They are basically new proven boats with no risk.