Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

Reptilia

Well-Known Member

Interesting…

‘Akhmadi said that energy and maritime security were among the main topics discussed during Prabowo’s January meeting with Ishiba. This, he added, also led to talks on other potential exchanges, including the possibility of Tokyo providing decommissioned Soryu-class submarines to Jakarta.’
 

BSKS

New Member
I'm not saying that SSNs are the wrong way to go, or that, as said, impactful projection is not important. I think they are the right option for Australia and that we should pull out all stops to ensure it happens.

I'm just saying that SSKs would be perfectly adequate to protect our own waters in a defensive mode. We would not need an SSN fleet for that purpose.

If we lost all options for SSN's then I think that is what we would drop our submarine requirement down to, and do it with what ever conventional submarine we could gain access to

I kind of see a mixed fleet being somewhat useful. Given that is what we will have for at least a decade, with Virginias operating in conjunction Collins, one can see the Virginias providing the longer distance patrols and the offensive presence in hostile waters, whilst the Collins continue to provide local coast defence.
Yes I agree, building established SSK's is a good idea. It should be commenced ASAP and we should delay SSN-AUKUS until we have a viable SSK fleet again. This would solve the looming capability gap rather than wondering if the US will sell us Virginia's or if they did what they would want in return. We could continue building SSK's until we are certain SSN-AUKUS is operational and proven or we decided we didn't want them after all.

Can anyone envisage a world where Australia is mostly concerned with defending its immediate region rather than poking around the SCS or Taiwan Straits at the behest of the US? Perhaps even the US can see this too? Operating SSN's brings a lot of baggage with extra facilities, costs, safety, waste disposal, crewing etc... It would be a huge waste if it turned out we really just needed SSK's operating close to Australia, monitoring the choke points.

Build SSK's now, SSN's later via SSN-AUKUS if we still feel we need to. Pass on Virginia's from the US and reduce our reliance.
 

Julian 82

Active Member
Yes I agree, building established SSK's is a good idea. It should be commenced ASAP and we should delay SSN-AUKUS until we have a viable SSK fleet again. This would solve the looming capability gap rather than wondering if the US will sell us Virginia's or if they did what they would want in return. We could continue building SSK's until we are certain SSN-AUKUS is operational and proven or we decided we didn't want them after all.

Can anyone envisage a world where Australia is mostly concerned with defending its immediate region rather than poking around the SCS or Taiwan Straits at the behest of the US? Perhaps even the US can see this too? Operating SSN's brings a lot of baggage with extra facilities, costs, safety, waste disposal, crewing etc... It would be a huge waste if it turned out we really just needed SSK's operating close to Australia, monitoring the choke points.

Build SSK's now, SSN's later via SSN-AUKUS if we still feel we need to. Pass on Virginia's from the US and reduce our reliance.
How does an SSK defend against a PLAN SSN poking around around our region. How does an SSK trail a PLAN carrier battle group in the Indian ocean or the South Pacific (you know our backyard). Times have changed mate. It’s not the benign 1990s anymore.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Akhmadi said that energy and maritime security were among the main topics discussed during Prabowo’s January meeting with Ishiba. This, he added, also led to talks on other potential exchanges, including the possibility of Tokyo providing decommissioned Soryu-class submarines to Jakarta.
Prabowo's administration strategy is talking to as much as possible partners. They talk with Babcock for next batches of Arrowhead 140 derivative, they talk with Fincantieri on potential building next batch of PPA in Batam shipyard, they talk with Turkiye for Istif Frigate, they talk with China on Type 52 Destroyer and they talk with Japan on Mogami derivative.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
How does an SSK defend against a PLAN SSN poking around around our region. How does an SSK trail a PLAN carrier battle group in the Indian ocean or the South Pacific (you know our backyard). Times have changed mate. It’s not the benign 1990s anymore.
My understanding is the Collin’s class while not young ,is still a very impressive capability that would very much be a concern and part of the calculus for a hostile maritime force attempting to operate within our immediate region.
Collin’s still has relevance and any new large build conventional SSK would only be an improvement on what Collin’s brings to the fleet today.
Still a scary proposition to a PLAN SSN or carrier battle group!
The conversation is not really about comparing an SSN to a SSK ,but rather options for what some of us consider as a problematic submarine script going forward.

If SSK’s we’re irrelevant, no Navy in the world would be purchasing them which realistically is clearly not the case.

Cheers S
 

Julian 82

Active Member
My understanding is the Collin’s class while not young ,is still a very impressive capability that would very much be a concern and part of the calculus for a hostile maritime force attempting to operate within our immediate region.
Collin’s still has relevance and any new large build conventional SSK would only be an improvement on what Collin’s brings to the fleet today.
Still a scary proposition to a PLAN SSN or carrier battle group!
The conversation is not really about comparing an SSN to a SSK ,but rather options for what some of us consider as a problematic submarine script going forward.

If SSK’s we’re irrelevant, no Navy in the world would be purchasing them which realistically is clearly not the case.

Cheers S
An SSK is great for a country with a 200 mile long coastline on the Baltic Sea. Not so good for a continental sized country with one of the largest coastlines in the world surrounded by some of the largest oceans in the world.

Just look at the distances involved from Perth to any useful operating area to our north. We are talking thousands of kilometres in some of the widest and deepest oceans in the world.

One key feature that is being overlooked is energy storage and freedom of manoeuvre.

A SSN has tremendous power density. It can use the largest sonars and computers (irrespective of how power hungry they are). It can dive deep and sprint at 30 plus knots for as long as it wants to get into a superior firing position and then reposition again and again.

An SSK is like a mobile mine field. It has to creep along at 5 or 6 knots and hope to hell it’s in the right position, at the right time and the enemy stumbles across its path. It can’t keep up with an SSN or surface action group running at moderate speed. The SSK has to be very judicious with its power consumption and it can’t travel at 20 or 30 knots at any useful range because its batteries will quickly go flat. A SSK also has to hope it kills its target first time because if it misses it won’t have the same range of options to reposition or evade a superior or determined enemy.

An SSK also has to snort to recharge its batteries. With the growth in space based, airborne and underwater sensors, this is becoming an increasingly hazardous task for the conventional submarine.

Any western country that can afford SSNs is only buying SSNs. The French, UK and US navies only operate SSNs. This is because SSNs are so much more effective in every facet. You would need 3 or 4 times the number of SSKs to cover the same geographical area and they still wouldn’t be as capable or as deadly as an SSN.For a continental sized country like Australia that is surrounded by ocean, an SSN is is probably one of the most uniquely suitable capabilities we could buy for the ADF. I am so glad we have this opportunity available to us. I just hope the politics doesn’t screw it up!
 

BSKS

New Member
How does an SSK defend against a PLAN SSN poking around around our region. How does an SSK trail a PLAN carrier battle group in the Indian ocean or the South Pacific (you know our backyard). Times have changed mate. It’s not the benign 1990s anymore.
Something as large as a Carrier battle group would be easily monitored from space or the air, don't need an SSK or SSN for that. If the CBG threatened Australia, we would be better off deterring via a long range land and air launched anti ship missiles. Yes SSN's are better than SSK's, but they also carry overheads... No its not the 1980's ASuW has progressed a lot since then.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
An SSK is great for a country with a 200 mile long coastline on the Baltic Sea. Not so good for a continental sized country with one of the largest coastlines in the world surrounded by some of the largest oceans in the world.

Just look at the distances involved from Perth to any useful operating area to our north. We are talking thousands of kilometres in some of the widest and deepest oceans in the world.

One key feature that is being overlooked is energy storage and freedom of manoeuvre.

A SSN has tremendous power density. It can use the largest sonars and computers (irrespective of how power hungry they are). It can dive deep and sprint at 30 plus knots for as long as it wants to get into a superior firing position and then reposition again and again.

An SSK is like a mobile mine field. It has to creep along at 5 or 6 knots and hope to hell it’s in the right position, at the right time and the enemy stumbles across its path. It can’t keep up with an SSN or surface action group running at moderate speed. The SSK has to be very judicious with its power consumption and it can’t travel at 20 or 30 knots at any useful range because its batteries will quickly go flat. A SSK also has to hope it kills its target first time because if it misses it won’t have the same range of options to reposition or evade a superior or determined enemy.

An SSK also has to snort to recharge its batteries. With the growth in space based, airborne and underwater sensors, this is becoming an increasingly hazardous task for the conventional submarine.

Any western country that can afford SSNs is only buying SSNs. The French, UK and US navies only operate SSNs. This is because SSNs are so much more effective in every facet. You would need 3 or 4 times the number of SSKs to cover the same geographical area and they still wouldn’t be as capable or as deadly as an SSN.For a continental sized country like Australia that is surrounded by ocean, an SSN is is probably one of the most uniquely suitable capabilities we could buy for the ADF. I am so glad we have this opportunity available to us. I just hope the politics doesn’t screw it up!
Diesel electric submarines were extremely effective for cutting off commercial shipping during WW2, (Germany in the Atlantic and USA in the Pacific), thousands of miles from their home ports. This is still an valuable use for SSKs and SSNs for that matter. Raw materials and oil are essential for the PRC.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Yes I agree, building established SSK's is a good idea. It should be commenced ASAP and we should delay SSN-AUKUS until we have a viable SSK fleet again. This would solve the looming capability gap rather than wondering if the US will sell us Virginia's or if they did what they would want in return. We could continue building SSK's until we are certain SSN-AUKUS is operational and proven or we decided we didn't want them after all.

Can anyone envisage a world where Australia is mostly concerned with defending its immediate region rather than poking around the SCS or Taiwan Straits at the behest of the US? Perhaps even the US can see this too? Operating SSN's brings a lot of baggage with extra facilities, costs, safety, waste disposal, crewing etc... It would be a huge waste if it turned out we really just needed SSK's operating close to Australia, monitoring the choke points.

Build SSK's now, SSN's later via SSN-AUKUS if we still feel we need to. Pass on Virginia's from the US and reduce our reliance.
Many, many issues with the content above, at least the way I view things.

If Australia were to delay it's participation in an AUKUS SSN, then Australia might as well give up going with SSN's altogether, as there is years of preparation required in order to make operating SSN's viable. As it stands now, the RAN already has personnel going through nuclear schools overseas to learn how to operate kit aboard SSN's and IIRC there are also RAN personnel seconded to the USN and RN to serve aboard some of their nuclear sub fleets to build experience. There is also the need (potentially) to build facilities in Australia that would be appropriate to operate and support SSN's and it will take time to select the best available sites for any new facilities as well as to then construct what is needed. As it stands now, there is concern that SSN's might not be available when Australia has crews available to serve aboard them and the Collins-class SSG's need to start being decommissioned. To try and pause or delay things could then lead to Australia getting into an impossibly tight spot where SSN's might become available but Australia lacks trained crew and/or necessary facilities to operate SSN's, or else the delay could force the US and UK partners to proceed with their own plans and then no longer be in a position to support Australian SSN ambitions whenever it is decided to resume them.

Now for the whole notion of Australia "building established SSK's"... Why on earth would Australia want to do this? The Collins-class submarine is actually an SSG, not an SSK, so how the RAN is used to operating conventional subs would be different from how any new 'established' sub would really be designed for. In point of fact, that was part of the issue with SEA 1000 in that there were no subs in service apart from the Collins-class that was really designed for how the RAN utilizes submarines, and that most conventional sub operators have different CONOPS and capability requirements for their subs. Even the very good and very advanced Japanese subs were not quite a match for what Australia wanted/needed.

If Australia were to go done the route of getting another/interim conventional sub, even using an existing and in-service design, what would Australia select? Keeping in mind that no existing, in service design really meets 'normal' RAN conventional sub requirements, what criteria would Australia use to make any such selection? Then, how long would it take for selections to get made, contracts signed, long-lead items ordered and production commenced? How many would be ordered? Where would they be built and what would be realistic delivery and in-service dates?

Further, if Australia were to select an in-service design, would it be modified to use kit and systems that the RAN is already familiar with? If so, how far out would that push things because of the time needed for detailed design needing completion? If the RAN were to go with a completely MOTS order and build, how long would it take RAN dolphins to undergo re-training or conversion training so that they are familiar with and more importantly competent, to use the new kit and systems, as well as what the proper procedures are?

Now onto notions on how they would be employed. One harsh reality is that Australian ports generally, and fleet bases especially, are FA away from everything else. I mean, a simple partial circumnavigation of Australia going from FBW through the Northwest Shelf to Darwin is roughly 3,600 km. What that has meant for RAN subs is that they need the ability to transit long stretches of water fairly quickly, which is also one of the reasons why AIP systems were looked at and ultimately discarded (or in the case of the Stirling engine, removed from the test rig and re-crated). The Collins-class subs have had the necessary power generation and battery storage capacity to conduct long distance transits whilst keeping the sub's indiscretion rate within acceptable parameters, but would other conventional subs likewise be able to do this? As for where they would actually be useful... there are not really many chokepoints in the near approaches to Australia and the closest thing otherwise to chokepoints would be in parts of the Timor Sea, Arafura Sea, or the Coral Sea, with these again all be significant distances from FBW where RAN subs are currently based, and even further if RAN subs were based out of FBE. So is this plan going to also require the expansion of RAN facilities in Darwin so that the subs could be based and supported from there? Even if new RAN conventional subs were ordered/built and brought into service to patrol 'chokepoints' between mainland Australia and Indonesia, Timor Leste or PNG, that only might help stave off direct attacks against the mainland. It would do SFA about securing or threatening major int'l SLOC chokepoints in SE Asia that significant amounts of int;l trade make use of, including Australian trade with Europe, Africa, the Mideast and Asia. To protect some of those SLOC, the ADF needs to be able to operate and project into the Indian Ocean as well as areas like the SCS, with all of these areas being even further from FBW than Darwin is. To reinforce the nature of this issue, in the event a major conflict breaks out, Australia could be effectively blockaded from thousands of kms away simply due to where so much of the int'l trade passes through. As a side note, this is also one of the potential flaws I see in Australia having established a strategic oil reserve stored in Japan...

To address the notion raised that Australia might going poking around the SCS at the behest of the US... TBH Australia should be poking around the SCS because it is in Australia's own self-interest to do so. Australian trade with Malaysia, Singapore, Vietnam, mainland China, S. Korea and Japan are pretty much all going to pass through the SCS and major portions of world trade with mainland China, S. Korea and Japan all pass through the SCS. This means in order to help protect Australian trade and the Australian economy directly, as well a indirectly by aiding in the prevention of economic disruption in major int'l economies, it is important for Australia to be able to have some influence on what goes through or is going on in the SCS. To think otherwise would be to demonstrate a degree of sea-blindness since Australia, due to it's relative isolation, can be effectively threatened by an aggressor without them ever having to come close to the mainland.

I would also suggest people stop and consider why Australia ended up deciding to change policy and pursue SSN's rather than conventional subs like the RAN has operated since the 1960's.
 

downunderblue

Active Member
It's not apples vs Oranges, nor is it black vs white.

It's all about risk (in many different domains) and how much residual risk you're willing to gamble with.
 

seaspear

Well-Known Member
My understanding of some of the delays in production in the U.S of their submarines is skilled labour shortage do recruiting Australians to go there and assist meet some of those concerns as a temporary measure these workers can return when our own build commences with experience
 

BSKS

New Member
Many, many issues with the content above, at least the way I view things.

If Australia were to delay it's participation in an AUKUS SSN, then Australia might as well give up going with SSN's altogether, as there is years of preparation required in order to make operating SSN's viable. As it stands now, the RAN already has personnel going through nuclear schools overseas to learn how to operate kit aboard SSN's and IIRC there are also RAN personnel seconded to the USN and RN to serve aboard some of their nuclear sub fleets to build experience. There is also the need (potentially) to build facilities in Australia that would be appropriate to operate and support SSN's and it will take time to select the best available sites for any new facilities as well as to then construct what is needed. As it stands now, there is concern that SSN's might not be available when Australia has crews available to serve aboard them and the Collins-class SSG's need to start being decommissioned. To try and pause or delay things could then lead to Australia getting into an impossibly tight spot where SSN's might become available but Australia lacks trained crew and/or necessary facilities to operate SSN's, or else the delay could force the US and UK partners to proceed with their own plans and then no longer be in a position to support Australian SSN ambitions whenever it is decided to resume them.
...
Thanks for the very comprehensive response!

Here are some of my comments on yours...

My point was to delay SSN-AUKUS and re-enter at a later time when the design is proven and operational, ie when it suits us including the state of facilities and training. IMO the benefits of risk retirement far outweigh any disruption to training programs or facilities construction. As mentioned, we would re-enter the program when we are ready.

On SSG/K, I was just using SSK to keep consistent with others in the thread. Understand your point tho...

On what sub? In an ideal world this would be an evolved Collins because as you point out this best fits our requirement. It is well understood by industry and now largely sovereign (we also own the IP). Whether that is still feasible though is questionable I admit. Other options might be a rekindled Attack class which was also adapted to suit and the detailed design was complete at cancellation. The Japanese Taigei has the advantage of a potential offshore build and therefore obtaining them more quickly. These would also be significantly cheaper at around $800m US. Issues with range might be less of an issue if operated defensively closer to Australia and, yes, options such as basing in Darwin with FIFO crewing could increase feasibility and is a good suggestion.

On the SLOC issue, I don't agree with this because it ignores how difficult a full blockade would be to do to a country like Australia with its large number of ports and their geographical dispersal. Blockading vessels would need to operate continuously in many locations thousands of kms from home and it would be a very difficult and demanding exercise for any country including China. Yes they could disrupt, but complete blockade over a continuous period at all ports would be very difficult if not impossible. In any case protecting SLOC is not an argument for SSN's and is best undertaken by surface combatants. How does an SSN protect a convoy from air/missile attack?

Why did we consider SSN's were needed and not SSG's?... The premise here is that our strategic situation and US ally have not changed. I think they have changed or might change, meaning we should review our strategy. For example, if the US retreats back to the western hemisphere and leaves APAC to China, our strategic approach may end up focused closer to home. This could better suit an SSG option. My view is we don't really know where this heading quite yet, but the US appears to have changed its approach to foreign and economic policy and we should be thinking about what the impacts might be.

In a nutshell, I think the biggest risk we have is the Virginia class sale from the US. If, as it looks, the US cannot increase Virginia production to allow the sale, a refusal to sell would leave us with either little/no sub capability until SSN-AUKUS is finally delivered, or if the US sold to us anyway it would run the risk of being a highly coercive transaction. For example, it would most certainly come with strings attached such as an agreement to support the US in future conflicts or repossession of the submarine if they so wanted. I also think the Trump administration or similar would take every opportunity to screw us over financially as well as is clearly happening right now through trade policy.

IMO these events support consideration of an interim SSG program. It might allow us to pass on the Virginia's, cover the capability gap and more comfortably wait until SSN-AUKUS is a lower risk option.

Incidentally I noticed this video below which surprisingly suggests the US consider SSG's for themselves given their SSN construction woes and need for additional boats. The proposal includes forward basing in Japan.

 

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
My understanding of some of the delays in production in the U.S of their submarines is skilled labour shortage do recruiting Australians to go there and assist meet some of those concerns as a temporary measure these workers can return when our own build commences with experience
How much are these problems a result of lack of investment by the ship builders and insufficient orders by the US Government?

The ship builders aren’t going to invest in staff for building 2.3 subs a year unless that many are being ordered. And (Virginia Class only) the US have averaged 1.6 boats per year since 2008, with no new orders placed since 2019?
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
On the SLOC issue, I don't agree with this because it ignores how difficult a full blockade would be to do to a country like Australia with its large number of ports and their geographical dispersal. Blockading vessels would need to operate continuously in many locations thousands of kms from home and it would be a very difficult and demanding exercise for any country including China. Yes they could disrupt, but complete blockade over a continuous period at all ports would be very difficult if not impossible. In any case protecting SLOC is not an argument for SSN's and is best undertaken by surface combatants. How does an SSN protect a convoy from air/missile attack?
I will have more later to cover other counterpoints, but the above does demonstrate the issue of 'sea blindness' which I am more used to seeing in a NZ context. I specifically mentioned that it would be possible for Australia to get blockaded several thousand km's away, because of the SLOC. Australia having open access to ports around the mainland because an adversary is not maintaining a close blockade is of little value if said adversary is able to threaten or even close a major SLOC which most Australian trade passes through but is over 3,000 km away from mainland Australia. For those not already aware, the Malacca Strait has some 200 merchant vessels transit every day, and approximately 40% of global trade annually passes through those and other nearby straits. Singapore is a major int'l port of call for vessels transiting the Malacca Strait or crossing the SCS.

By focusing only upon the waters immediately adjacent to Australia like the Timor Sea for example, one ignores the SLOC elsewhere that shipping to and from Australia also has to transit. Some of those SLOC have chokepoints much tighter than between Cape York and southern PNG.

As for the importance of using subs to aid in keeping SLOC open... Consider what impact the presence, real or just suspected, a sub can have on surface shipping and combatants, particularly if/when the SLOC is also very important to the adversary nation as well. So having subs which can without too much trouble get to a distant station or patrol area and have significant time available on station can permit all sorts of ISR opportunities as well as enabling strike and anti-shipping. Now, if one has an adversary that relies very heavily upon energy imports which come via tankers through a critical SLOC, would it not be a good idea to be able to get one's own subs to that SLOC and be able to stay there for a bit, hunting for tankers bound for the adversary's ports? Similarly, it would be quite sensible for the adversary to send in a number of their own subs to threaten that SLOC, and one of the best platforms to hunt enemy subs is with a sub of one's own. However, if the SLOC in question is over a week and possibly more than two weeks away for a sub, even if a sub has a mission endurance of over 70 days it would still require more conventional subs to maintain one on station. That is one of the potentially major advantages of SSN's, all the available power can permit higher submerged transit speeds (reducing travel time as well as the indiscretion rate) which are also sustained, and still have sufficient onboard power to operate energy intensive systems like BYG-1.

If the RAN were forced to select an 'available' sub design like the Type 212 or Type 214, or even the S-80 or Scorpene-class, those classes of subs were not generally designed to cross great distances of water and then sustain operations, which is more of less what the RAN needs from subs.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
I will have more later to cover other counterpoints, but the above does demonstrate the issue of 'sea blindness' which I am more used to seeing in a NZ context. I specifically mentioned that it would be possible for Australia to get blockaded several thousand km's away, because of the SLOC. Australia having open access to ports around the mainland because an adversary is not maintaining a close blockade is of little value if said adversary is able to threaten or even close a major SLOC which most Australian trade passes through but is over 3,000 km away from mainland Australia. For those not already aware, the Malacca Strait has some 200 merchant vessels transit every day, and approximately 40% of global trade annually passes through those and other nearby straits. Singapore is a major int'l port of call for vessels transiting the Malacca Strait or crossing the SCS.

By focusing only upon the waters immediately adjacent to Australia like the Timor Sea for example, one ignores the SLOC elsewhere that shipping to and from Australia also has to transit. Some of those SLOC have chokepoints much tighter than between Cape York and southern PNG.

As for the importance of using subs to aid in keeping SLOC open... Consider what impact the presence, real or just suspected, a sub can have on surface shipping and combatants, particularly if/when the SLOC is also very important to the adversary nation as well. So having subs which can without too much trouble get to a distant station or patrol area and have significant time available on station can permit all sorts of ISR opportunities as well as enabling strike and anti-shipping. Now, if one has an adversary that relies very heavily upon energy imports which come via tankers through a critical SLOC, would it not be a good idea to be able to get one's own subs to that SLOC and be able to stay there for a bit, hunting for tankers bound for the adversary's ports? Similarly, it would be quite sensible for the adversary to send in a number of their own subs to threaten that SLOC, and one of the best platforms to hunt enemy subs is with a sub of one's own. However, if the SLOC in question is over a week and possibly more than two weeks away for a sub, even if a sub has a mission endurance of over 70 days it would still require more conventional subs to maintain one on station. That is one of the potentially major advantages of SSN's, all the available power can permit higher submerged transit speeds (reducing travel time as well as the indiscretion rate) which are also sustained, and still have sufficient onboard power to operate energy intensive systems like BYG-1.

If the RAN were forced to select an 'available' sub design like the Type 212 or Type 214, or even the S-80 or Scorpene-class, those classes of subs were not generally designed to cross great distances of water and then sustain operations, which is more of less what the RAN needs from subs.
I feel this conversation is really about a Plan B should Virginia Subs not be available for the RAN in the time frame envisaged.
Be it price, politics or production it’s a conversation that is prudent.

For myself it’s a genuine concern

It’s not about SSN v SSK/G , but rather an aging Collin’s with or without an upgrade handing the baton to something else.


HMAS Collin’s was commissioned 29 years ago and the youngest of the Class Rankin, 22 years ago

Do we have a margin of error?

Cheers S
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I feel this conversation is really about a Plan B should Virginia Subs not be available for the RAN in the time frame envisaged.
Be it price, politics or production it’s a conversation that is prudent.

For myself it’s a genuine concern

It’s not about SSN v SSK/G , but rather an aging Collin’s with or without an upgrade handing the baton to something else.


HMAS Collin’s was commissioned 29 years ago and the youngest of the Class Rankin, 22 years ago

Do we have a margin of error?

Cheers S
The RAN probably only has a small margin of error. Unfortunately though, following failures by successive gov'ts of both major parties, Australian naval shipbuilding has been allowed to wither repeatedly, all whilst orders for new vessels were not getting placed and programmes cancelled or delayed, often for short-term gain.

This is in large measure why the SEA 3000 'crash programme' got started. If Australia were to try and start a new/another submarine acquisition programme for a conventional sub at this point, it could easily be another decade (at least, IMO) before whatever is part of the new programme might enter service. It could also potentially take longer than that, if the selection is some MOTS selection which would then require the RAN submarine service to adapt to the new design.

Or to put it another way, it is quite possible that SSN's might be in RAN service before any alternate 'Plan B' conventional sub might get into RAN service at this point.
 

seaspear

Well-Known Member
How much are these problems a result of lack of investment by the ship builders and insufficient orders by the US Government?

The ship builders aren’t going to invest in staff for building 2.3 subs a year unless that many are being ordered. And (Virginia Class only) the US have averaged 1.6 boats per year since 2008, with no new orders placed since 2019?
This article does suggest there is complications from production increases but not insufficient orders
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
If the RAN were forced to select an 'available' sub design like the Type 212 or Type 214, or even the S-80 or Scorpene-class, those classes of subs were not generally designed to cross great distances of water and then sustain operations, which is more of less what the RAN needs from subs.
I suspect that if the AUKUS subs falls through, Australia would be out of the long range sub game. We are in it to help the Americans and its allies. Its a mission we have taken on for a long time while other nations were still industrialising or rebuilding after WW2. There doesn't seem to be much point in trying to help the americans if they don't want to be helped, and if they are destroying their own alliance network.

Australia would probably take a more defensive position again, maybe back at the second island chain and worrying about local issues, which are far less capable.

Australias SLOC interesting. The real question are we particularly worried about Australia's SLOC or the global SLOC..
1745293561328.png
This image from ASPI shows the key ones Australia is concerned about. These are really the global ones, because 35% of global trade would go through here (or their alternates - Sunda, Lombok etc).

Actual sea traffic looks more like this.
1745293729379.png
From AMSA.

Yes, some busy routes when trading with China, Japan, Korea and Singapore. But about 70% of that trade would be for China, so presuming we are warring with china that wouldn't be happening anyway. Shipping around Japan and Korea would also likely be limited to escorted convoys and that would be outside of Australia's concern or control. We don't have any merchant ships. It would be up to China/Japan and Korea to control their own EEZ waters and territories.

In fact it would be mostly redirected to that larger pink area. Trying to block trade between Australia and Indonesia or Australia and India or Australia and the US or Australia and America would be pretty hard. There is no choke points for the trade, but lots of choke points for the enemy to traverse. Again, Australia would be a tough nut to crack, and in doing so you would bring the interests of the Indonesians or the Indians in squashing that threat to their people, their ships and their urgent food and energy imports. Not even China would be stupid enough to do that, because if they do, the war won't be fought around Australia. China and India have a direct territory they could have a conflict over. They won't be shipping everything 10,000 km away to fight over Australia and its raw material exports and agriculture.

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China squeezing Australia, brings in the US, Japan, Korea and Indonesia. Those countries already have navies and submarines, and are closer located than Australia is. Australia mostly sells commodities, which are very tradable, if a bit low value. Australia has shown tremendous resilience against hostile trade environments against it, it just sells its high qualities goods to the second highest buyer if the first highest stops buying.

Japan offering submarines are a massive discount, and basing them in Japan would probably be on the table. Japanese subs have time endurance, but not distance endurance. If they were based out of Japan, with crews flying in and out, that would relieve a huge need for Australia.

If Sea3000 goes Japanese, Japanese subs I would imagine would be the backstop option. You would already have the key components in place to make that happen. I suspect that this is perhaps another reason why the Japanese are very interested in Sea3000, and the AusGov are interested in the Japanese.

For the Japanese Australia is their 10th biggest agricultural importer. But Japan is really shifting some of its preferred suppliers around, Australia is likely to benefit greatly from that once things like 50%-100% tariffs are removed from Australian produce and products.

Japan Food Products Imports by country 2022 | WITS Data
Seems to indicate Australia gets a 50% tariff, compared to the US 5.8% or Frances 3.34%.

So maybe less about Australia's existing security, as its about Australia's economic growth.
 

downunderblue

Active Member
How much are these problems a result of lack of investment by the ship builders and insufficient orders by the US Government?

The ship builders aren’t going to invest in staff for building 2.3 subs a year unless that many are being ordered. And (Virginia Class only) the US have averaged 1.6 boats per year since 2008, with no new orders placed since 2019?
To summarise the Congressional Research Service (Report RL32418), the US submarine industrial base faces the following challenges which have limited its capacity:
  • Workforce Constraints: A major obstacle is the difficulty in attracting, training, and retaining a skilled workforce. The industry needs to recruit a substantial number of new workers with specialized skills required for complex submarine construction.
  • Supply Chain Issues: Delays in the delivery of essential materials and components from a strained supply chain are hindering production timelines.
  • Production Delays: Both the Virginia-class and the Columbia-class submarine programs are experiencing delays, preventing the industrial base from meeting the Navy's desired production rates.
  • Maintenance Backlog: A significant portion of the existing submarine fleet is out of service due to maintenance delays and insufficient drydock capacity, further straining the resources of the industrial base.
  • Shrunken Industrial Base: Following the end of the Cold War, the submarine industrial base significantly contracted. This reduced capacity makes it challenging to handle the current and projected demands for new submarine construction.
  • These interconnected challenges have resulted in the US Navy consistently falling short of its submarine production goals.
This is a summary but apparently Covid also knocked them for six.

What I missed (between all the other Executive Orders he has issued) on 4MAR25 is the creation of a new Office of Shipbuilding and the ordering of a 'Maritime Action Plan', “Restoring America’s Maritime Dominance” demanding increased U.S. shipbuilding capacity. It's clear that Trump has a hump to "Make Shipbuilding Great Again". Biden and the House and Senate Armed Services Committee's have been focused on this for some time, but Trump has a special way to get things done and 'think outside the box'.

Whilst we here are all focused on a Plan B, it seems that the Administration is pretty much focused on boosting the industrial capacity itself, which is clearly a good thing if we are need Plan A to be successful.
 
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seaspear

Well-Known Member
I don't want to be accused of apostasy on this but should there be a significant delay between end of life of the conventional submarines prior to acquiring the submarines under AUKUS should we reconsider the B-1 bomber
 
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