Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
It is an Alpha 5000. Mr. Fish's twitter timeline ( or X, whatever) has info on a vast array of ship designs on display (including the lats Hunter modelings at the Indo Pacific 2023 Expo. One simply need to be inquisitive and look for themselves

My comment about it possibly being the Alpha 4000, was in reply to @CJR post below, which predates Mr Fish's X posts by some hours, so get off your high horse and check timings of posts, before you have a go at someone. The Alpha 5000 is a brand new design that no info had been released on, until Indo-Pacific 2023.
What's the model hiding between the Tasman and Hobart classes? The one with what looks like a 76mm and 16VLS cells forward and more VLS cells amidship? An extra amped up Avante or an AWD derivative of the F-110?
So, looks like they call it the Avante Alpha 5000...
@CJR also done this post in reply to mine including a link to the Fish X post, to which I placed a thumbs up to acknowledge. So how about you checking, that a link hasn't already been posted, before you post a link for the 3rd time, @Reptilia had also posted a link to this article.
 

H_K

Member
Not sure a better option on the table for australia than this design…
Based on what is known about the Taiwanese “light frigates” that are the reference design that G&C is referring to, substantial design changes will be needed. The Taiwanese ships are approx 100m long and 2,500 tons.
 

Reptilia

Well-Known Member
Hard to say IMO.

Is there budget to build this ship? Is there a yard they are ready to partner with? And G&C doesn't have a lot of Australian Footprint.
Its kinda the same problem Babcock have, but worse, Babcock IMO has a larger Australian footprint than G&C.

There products are also competition with each other a ~5-6000t frigate space with 32 VLS, box launchers and a helo. The G&C looks faster on paper, but the Type31 has a gun and perhaps stronger endurance.

Which is why I imagine Navantia throws in their Alpha 5000. Mogami II is available although I didn't see Mitsubishi as a exhibitor. Lurrsen is but not as NVL, but apparently doesn't have the MMPV90 on display, and only the older model of arafura with the 40mm gun.

Navantia has products in every space, but some may require significant design and have significant risk. But they have apparently solved the the CIVMEC/Austal problem, which will be attractive, and they have a significant footprint here with the LHD/DDG/AOR logistics and DDG/LHD build. They have agreements with BAE and Thales.

The Flight III, is a beautiful, clean, looking ship IMO. Any chance we can cut our Hobarts in half and plug them to look like that?
Or hull extend the Hunter so we can have 128 VLS and towed arrays.
The Japanese booth have the new FFM on display

 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
The more I follow this discussion the more I am convinced that speed has to be the goal - we need, effectively, an interim frigate to enter service in the early 2030s alongside the first of the Hunters to replace the Anzacs sooner; stabilising the size of our surface force before we can begin to build it up.

This is where a "tier 2" ship makes sense. It doesn't need to be perfect, it needs to meet our needs, yes, but it mostly needs to be available and soon because we've made a mess of our naval acquisitions.
If an 'interim frigate' of some sort were to be brought into RAN service literally and figuratively alongside the Hunter-class frigates so that the current ANZAC-class frigates can be decommissioned sooner, that would most likely trigger a number of issues which would require significant planning to attempt to manage, as well as likely causing a host of issues with sustaining a continuous naval shipbuilding programme. As I see it, there would be at least three or four major problems with getting two classes of frigates (or destroyers, corvettes, even cruisers for that matter...).

The first issue would be where would the crew for the vessels come from? There are currently crews for the eight FFH's currently in commission, which could likely sustain ~eight other similar types of warship, more or less, depending on the crew reqs for the replacing vessels. This might work out to four Hunter-class frigates and four of the proposed 'interim' frigates, and by then all the RAN ANZAC-class frigates should be no longer in service. IF the planned drumbeat is maintained for the SEA 5000 build then by ~2035, if two classes could be brought into RAN service at the same time, then the RAN would no longer have personnel to crew new/additional vessels if the eight FFH's are out by 2035. If the RAN were successful in recruiting, training and retaining new & existing personnel, then 2035-ish might start to see the number of personnel grow to where the RAN might be able to think about expanding the size of the fleet, but by rushing replacements into service, they would likely enter service before the RAN would have sufficient numbers of crew to expand the size of the fleet.

Relating to this, and part of the 2nd issue, is the current SEA 5000 programme is to be a build of nine vessels with construction running until ~2044. The fifth Hunter-class frigate would likely be finished in ~2036, but the vessel would need a crew because there would be an already in-service 'interim' frigate that got the ex FFH crew. This would leave the RAN with the rather unpalatable choice of leaving new FFG's un-crewed, or transfer the crew over from an 'interim' frigate that would likely have been in RAN service for four years or less.

There would be a cascade of decisions which would need to be made. Either keep the 'interim' frigate class in service and scale back the Hunter-class frigate production and effectively torpedo the naval shipbuilding plan, bring the FFG's into service and retire or place in extended readiness the 'interim' frigates which would be at most only a few years old and wait until the pool of RAN personnel can be grown sufficiently to increase the number of vessels which could be crewed, or some other vessel crewing scheme.

There is also the reality that getting another class of MFU brought into service at about the same time would cost quite a bit of coin and would likely require another yard/facility established for the production of proper warships in Australia. Whilst not an immediate issue, doing so would then cause problems with sustaining naval shipbuilding since it would be likely that Australia could get a nearly a dozen new MFU's built in a significantly shorter period of time, well before the RAN could get enough personnel to actually operate extra vessels. This means Australia would either need to shrink the number of vessels ordered which would also compress the total build times required and therefore cause another shipbuilding 'Valley of Death' or else have Oz yards overbuild the number vessels to keep the yards ticking along whilst new vessels are launched and kept moored without crews.

Yes, over time the size of the RAN could potentially be grown, possibly even enough to support a ~24 MFU navy, but this would require significant planning, funding, effort and gov't will to accomplish, and of course time. A doubling of the number of RAN majors would likely require the number of personnel in RAN service to more than double. Nothing that I do not think could be accomplished, but it would probably be easier for the RAN to get the actual vessels than it would be to build up the numbers of personnel in service.
 

FormerDirtDart

Well-Known Member
My comment about it possibly being the Alpha 4000, was in reply to @CJR post below, which predates Mr Fish's X posts by some hours, so get off your high horse and check timings of posts, before you have a go at someone. The Alpha 5000 is a brand new design that no info had been released on, until Indo-Pacific 2023.


@CJR also done this post in reply to mine including a link to the Fish X post, to which I placed a thumbs up to acknowledge. So how about you checking, that a link hasn't already been posted, before you post a link for the 3rd time, @Reptilia had also posted a link to this article.
Perhaps you shouldn't take things so personal madam.
 

Armchair

Well-Known Member
Yes, over time the size of the RAN could potentially be grown, possibly even enough to support a ~24 MFU navy, but this would require significant planning, funding, effort and gov't will to accomplish, and of course time. A doubling of the number of RAN majors would likely require the number of personnel in RAN service to more than double. Nothing that I do not think could be accomplished, but it would probably be easier for the RAN to get the actual vessels than it would be to build up the numbers of personnel in service.
all this at a time when the RAN is acquiring, as a major national effort, new more complex and expensive subs with larger crewing demands.
I imagine that establishing east coast roles for submariners is probably the single biggest RAN retention hurdle. Creating an onshore training facility ( with Virginia, and later AUKUS class, system simulators) might be one way to ease that in.
 

devo99

Well-Known Member
Speaking of simulators, I got to play Navantia Australia's prop hunt copy training aid game today.
It's basically just the game prop hunt but the maps are the Navantia ships (DDGs, LHDs and AORs) and it's about familiarising sailors with the ships and where certain things should and shouldn't be. It sounds a bit silly but if anyone here knows how well video game players memorise maps it's actually quite effective when getting them on the actual ship is not an option. As a bonus it's pretty fun as well.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
The Mogami model is on display at the Japanese industry stall.
Of course.. Japanese Inc.

Speaking of simulators, I got to play Navantia Australia's prop hunt copy training aid game today.
It's basically just the game prop hunt but the maps are the Navantia ships (DDGs, LHDs and AORs) and it's about familiarising sailors with the ships and where certain things should and shouldn't be. It sounds a bit silly but if anyone here knows how well video game players memorise maps it's actually quite effective when getting them on the actual ship is not an option. As a bonus it's pretty fun as well.
Its not dumb if it works. The ADF is basically going very heavy on simulations. I would imagine new sailors easily getting confused and unfamiliar with a ship. Much quicker and easier to do that with simulation before they are on the ship.
 

Reptilia

Well-Known Member
From Naval news

Gibbs & Cox proposal


Maybe potential for 16 NSM, 16 tactical VLS + 8 strike length + main gun?



and the new vid from naval news discussing the majority of ships on display

 
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Anthony_B_78

Active Member
If an 'interim frigate' of some sort were to be brought into RAN service literally and figuratively alongside the Hunter-class frigates so that the current ANZAC-class frigates can be decommissioned sooner, that would most likely trigger a number of issues which would require significant planning to attempt to manage, as well as likely causing a host of issues with sustaining a continuous naval shipbuilding programme. As I see it, there would be at least three or four major problems with getting two classes of frigates (or destroyers, corvettes, even cruisers for that matter...).

The first issue would be where would the crew for the vessels come from? There are currently crews for the eight FFH's currently in commission, which could likely sustain ~eight other similar types of warship, more or less, depending on the crew reqs for the replacing vessels. This might work out to four Hunter-class frigates and four of the proposed 'interim' frigates, and by then all the RAN ANZAC-class frigates should be no longer in service. IF the planned drumbeat is maintained for the SEA 5000 build then by ~2035, if two classes could be brought into RAN service at the same time, then the RAN would no longer have personnel to crew new/additional vessels if the eight FFH's are out by 2035. If the RAN were successful in recruiting, training and retaining new & existing personnel, then 2035-ish might start to see the number of personnel grow to where the RAN might be able to think about expanding the size of the fleet, but by rushing replacements into service, they would likely enter service before the RAN would have sufficient numbers of crew to expand the size of the fleet.

Relating to this, and part of the 2nd issue, is the current SEA 5000 programme is to be a build of nine vessels with construction running until ~2044. The fifth Hunter-class frigate would likely be finished in ~2036, but the vessel would need a crew because there would be an already in-service 'interim' frigate that got the ex FFH crew. This would leave the RAN with the rather unpalatable choice of leaving new FFG's un-crewed, or transfer the crew over from an 'interim' frigate that would likely have been in RAN service for four years or less.

There would be a cascade of decisions which would need to be made. Either keep the 'interim' frigate class in service and scale back the Hunter-class frigate production and effectively torpedo the naval shipbuilding plan, bring the FFG's into service and retire or place in extended readiness the 'interim' frigates which would be at most only a few years old and wait until the pool of RAN personnel can be grown sufficiently to increase the number of vessels which could be crewed, or some other vessel crewing scheme.

There is also the reality that getting another class of MFU brought into service at about the same time would cost quite a bit of coin and would likely require another yard/facility established for the production of proper warships in Australia. Whilst not an immediate issue, doing so would then cause problems with sustaining naval shipbuilding since it would be likely that Australia could get a nearly a dozen new MFU's built in a significantly shorter period of time, well before the RAN could get enough personnel to actually operate extra vessels. This means Australia would either need to shrink the number of vessels ordered which would also compress the total build times required and therefore cause another shipbuilding 'Valley of Death' or else have Oz yards overbuild the number vessels to keep the yards ticking along whilst new vessels are launched and kept moored without crews.

Yes, over time the size of the RAN could potentially be grown, possibly even enough to support a ~24 MFU navy, but this would require significant planning, funding, effort and gov't will to accomplish, and of course time. A doubling of the number of RAN majors would likely require the number of personnel in RAN service to more than double. Nothing that I do not think could be accomplished, but it would probably be easier for the RAN to get the actual vessels than it would be to build up the numbers of personnel in service.
I agree there would be many challenges, but let's look at the problem of timing.

We're told now that the first Hunter will not commission until 2032, that they will be commissioned every two years, and that the Anzac may not even go through the life extension program. Either way with regard to Anzac herself, she would be 36 when Hunter commissions, Arunta will be roughly the same, Warramunga will be 35 and Stuart 36. Ok, but then, Parramatta would be 37, Ballarat 38, Toowoomba 39, and Perth would be 40. And then we wouldn't get to nine frigates in service until 2048 - by which time the Hobart replacements should not be far away. There are already real concerns about the Anzacs sailing deep into the '30s and beyond, and while we might speculate that the Hunter drumbeat could be accelerated, similarly there could be more delays.

If we could acquire a new class of, say, three or four light frigates / large corvettes, call them what you will, between 2032 and 2036, then together with the first three Hunters coming into service, we could retire all the Anzacs, or at least have the last retire before 2038 when the fourth Hunter is commissioned. They could have smaller crews, meaning that the overall manpower requirements would be lower through to 2038, and not really increase until the fifth and sixth Hunters are commissioned. Even with a faster drumbeat of 18 months, this would make sense - getting the Anzacs out of service sooner, and building up the surface force by two by the end of 2030s.

Couple this with only building six ASW Hunters, and then moving to the AAW/strike optimised variant, to both replace the Hobarts and build up the fleet further, it is not in my book unrealistic to aim to get 15-16 warships in the mid to late 2040s, and that will provide for continuous shipbuilding, with the interim frigate class being able to be replaced earlier - sold to a friendly country that would appreciate something with some life left in them - and then replacement warships entering service every 18-24 months.
 

GregorZ

Member
If an 'interim frigate' of some sort were to be brought into RAN service literally and figuratively alongside the Hunter-class frigates so that the current ANZAC-class frigates can be decommissioned sooner, that would most likely trigger a number of issues which would require significant planning to attempt to manage, as well as likely causing a host of issues with sustaining a continuous naval shipbuilding programme. As I see it, there would be at least three or four major problems with getting two classes of frigates (or destroyers, corvettes, even cruisers for that matter...).

The first issue would be where would the crew for the vessels come from? There are currently crews for the eight FFH's currently in commission, which could likely sustain ~eight other similar types of warship, more or less, depending on the crew reqs for the replacing vessels. This might work out to four Hunter-class frigates and four of the proposed 'interim' frigates, and by then all the RAN ANZAC-class frigates should be no longer in service. IF the planned drumbeat is maintained for the SEA 5000 build then by ~2035, if two classes could be brought into RAN service at the same time, then the RAN would no longer have personnel to crew new/additional vessels if the eight FFH's are out by 2035. If the RAN were successful in recruiting, training and retaining new & existing personnel, then 2035-ish might start to see the number of personnel grow to where the RAN might be able to think about expanding the size of the fleet, but by rushing replacements into service, they would likely enter service before the RAN would have sufficient numbers of crew to expand the size of the fleet.

Relating to this, and part of the 2nd issue, is the current SEA 5000 programme is to be a build of nine vessels with construction running until ~2044. The fifth Hunter-class frigate would likely be finished in ~2036, but the vessel would need a crew because there would be an already in-service 'interim' frigate that got the ex FFH crew. This would leave the RAN with the rather unpalatable choice of leaving new FFG's un-crewed, or transfer the crew over from an 'interim' frigate that would likely have been in RAN service for four years or less.

There would be a cascade of decisions which would need to be made. Either keep the 'interim' frigate class in service and scale back the Hunter-class frigate production and effectively torpedo the naval shipbuilding plan, bring the FFG's into service and retire or place in extended readiness the 'interim' frigates which would be at most only a few years old and wait until the pool of RAN personnel can be grown sufficiently to increase the number of vessels which could be crewed, or some other vessel crewing scheme.

There is also the reality that getting another class of MFU brought into service at about the same time would cost quite a bit of coin and would likely require another yard/facility established for the production of proper warships in Australia. Whilst not an immediate issue, doing so would then cause problems with sustaining naval shipbuilding since it would be likely that Australia could get a nearly a dozen new MFU's built in a significantly shorter period of time, well before the RAN could get enough personnel to actually operate extra vessels. This means Australia would either need to shrink the number of vessels ordered which would also compress the total build times required and therefore cause another shipbuilding 'Valley of Death' or else have Oz yards overbuild the number vessels to keep the yards ticking along whilst new vessels are launched and kept moored without crews.

Yes, over time the size of the RAN could potentially be grown, possibly even enough to support a ~24 MFU navy, but this would require significant planning, funding, effort and gov't will to accomplish, and of course time. A doubling of the number of RAN majors would likely require the number of personnel in RAN service to more than double. Nothing that I do not think could be accomplished, but it would probably be easier for the RAN to get the actual vessels than it would be to build up the numbers of personnel in service.
Just throwing this out there.
If they indeed build 6 Hunters and 3 AWD Hunters they could cancel the Hobart upgrade, or significantly scale it back. Use the saved funds to pay for the light frigates. If they hit crewing issues after all ANZACs are retired, they could start paying off the Hobarts and on selling them and eventually going for 6 Hunter AWD. Which would give a fleet mix of something like 6 ASW Hunter, 6 AWD Hunter and 6 Light Frigates.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Xavier from Naval News has done a walk through and interviewed reps from Navantia, BAE, TKMS and Gibbs and Cox.
Navantia also had a model of the Spanish Navy F-110 as well as a video of an Australianised version.
BAE have put together 48 and 64 VLS packages for the Hunter as well as the 96 cell version
TKMS confirmed that the A210 is evolved from the A200
 
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Reptilia

Well-Known Member
If the Gibbs & Cox proposal wins and they find a builder in Aus, that could setup a head to head battle between DDGX and Type 83 in the future If Australia were to get an advanced cruiser In the 2040s.
 

H_K

Member
Gibbs & Cox proposal
Approx waterline dimensions 110 x 14 x 3.8m. Based on rough scaling of the Mk 41 cells.

That puts the Gibbs & Cox design at 2,800 - 3,000 tons, which is consistent with what we know of the Taiwanese corvette. No way it’s 3,500 tons or as big as Anzac.

Too small for the RAN’s needs IMHO.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Just throwing this out there.
If they indeed build 6 Hunters and 3 AWD Hunters they could cancel the Hobart upgrade, or significantly scale it back. Use the saved funds to pay for the light frigates. If they hit crewing issues after all ANZACs are retired, they could start paying off the Hobarts and on selling them and eventually going for 6 Hunter AWD. Which would give a fleet mix of something like 6 ASW Hunter, 6 AWD Hunter and 6 Light Frigates.
Pretty sure that the Hobart-class upgrades are too far along to realistically cancel without additional costs. Remember a contract with BAE was signed over a year ago for $155 mil. for the upgrade programme to run for ~six years. Cancelling a signed contract which has already had orders get placed would almost certainly trigger penalties and fines/fees without delivering any worthwhile upgraded capabilities. Even if the upgrades could be cancelled without paying any penalties, and all the kit upgrades which are already on order also cancelled or returned, then $155 mil. is not really a significant amount when talking about the costs of major warships. IIRC the per vessel cost for the Arafura-class OPV is ~$300 mil. so a larger and significantly better armed frigate would likely be several times what the budget for the Hobart-class DDG upgrades is.

There would also be very real issues with trying to keep the Hobart-class in service and effective without upgrades until future air warfare vessels could be built and commissioned. Right now under current plans, it appears that all vessels should be finished with their upgrades by ~2028 and would likely be viable (or at least more viable) for service until at least the late 2030's or perhaps into the early/mid 2040's, which is when the shipbuilding plan likely expected to begin replacing the DDG's. If the DDG upgrades are not carried out, I am not certain that the DDG's would be able to remain viable until the mid 2030's which is the likely earliest time that an air warfare version of the Hunter-class could be completed and brought into RAN service.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Approx waterline dimensions 110 x 14 x 3.8m. Based on rough scaling of the Mk 41 cells.
They are claiming 117m.
The Tasman corvette is also curious, claiming 109 x 15m and possibly 3,600t.

Given these are concept models, and at a trade show/expo environment, I think people are throwing around potential max numbers, because there is a size competition going on. So I wouldn't be taking those total tonnage numbers to the bank, but I do note they are heavily armed, and probably max out their hull with equipment as fitted.

Xavier from Naval News has done a walk through and interviewed reps from Navantia, BAE, TKMS and Gibbs and Cox.
Well it confirms that no one really knows what is going on and are show casing everything thing they have that may be relevant. I was kind of hoping they had been given some guidance on size or capability or cost.

So we are seeing everything from OPV's up to 14,000 96-128 VLS heavy cruisers.

Navantia is putting on a strong show. They have lots of products, lots of industry, lots of footprint, lots of history to draw on. Having two yards signed up ready to go is really going to put pressure on Lurrssen if a small combatant program happens. They aren't just offering a platform, they are offering a whole solution with build partners, industry, support, etc. Backed by a sovereign state with its own navy.

That flight III is pure warship porn with 128VLS. But even Navantia admit it is "in the future".

BAE has also asserted itself. But there is going to pressure on them to deliver in timeframes.

We can clearly see that future front line combatants are going to blow past 10,000t..
IMO we should reconfigure the existing Hunters to be ~64 VLS with towed array. Then look at a lengthened, more powerful proper combatant for batch II.
 

Meriv90

Active Member
A bit OT but how nice finally seeing an host using hands (I'm sorry I'm Italian i need that body language :)) and showcase with energy the product. Normally the interviews are with a stiff middle aged man that has been lend to the exposition.
 
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