Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Tier 1 and tier 2 are labels not categories and unfortunately people are conflating capabilities because they do not understand what goes into a warship design.

A well armed high end GP frigate is not a high end ASW or air defence combatant, no matter what it is armed with.

How do we know this?

Easy, the parent navies are building actual high end ASW and air defence combatants alongside the GP frigates we are looking at.

At the same time, and OPV with a high end radar and a VLS is not a GP frigate, it is an over capitalised OPV.

Gaffa taping extra gear on it will never make it as survivable or versatile as a purpose designed GP frigate.

Look at Samuel B Roberts

Would an OPV, ANZAC or even a Hobart survive what an Oliver Hazard Perry class frigate did? The crew performed heroically and professionally but would a crew of the same calibre have a chance in a tarted up OPV?

Structural strength, subdivision, redundancy, all play a part, things that are not factored into cheap designs because they are expensive. Crew size matters, not enough trained people means no chance for damage control in even a well designed ship.

The leading GP frigate contenders will be a bucket load better than the OPVs, and the ANZACs, but likely not as good as a Hobart, and nowhere near as survivable as a Hunter.

All of this is before you start looking at signatures, sensors, etc. how well they can see and hear.

When people start saying tier 2 GP frigates are as good as tier 1 ASW frigates because of their size and potential armament, we are back in the situation where successive governments were able to pretend a Patrol Frigate, after being upgraded to a GP frigate, could replace a DDG.

When you realise the DDGs were bought because the DLGs the RAN probably really needed, were seen as unaffordable, you start to get the picture.

Conflating OPVs with patrol frigates, with GP frigates, with ASW frigates, with air defence frigates, with destroyers, and you end up with arm chair experts and novices (including politicians and journalists), believing OPVs are cruisers.

Hell just look at the NSM armed Cape some were getting sexually aroused over a few months back.
Yes, yes, yes, this.

Sorry, but the above is what I have been banging on about whenever the notion of upgrading the armament of the Arafura-class OPV's gets brought up. Like it or not, the Arafura-class OPV's are what were ordered and either built, or in the process of being built. Without spending some serious coin, they cannot really be made into something like an FSG, and even then, because certain design features were not likely included in an OPV, one would still not end up with a vessel as capable or survivable as a purpose built combatant of that size.

Wild hare thought I did have recently. What if gov't decided to torpedoe the SEA 3000 GPF project which came out of the DSR and subsequent naval review, and were instead to go back to building nine Hunter-class frigates, and then reach out to Japan to see about ordering some Maya-class destroyers and then license production of the resulting design in Australia? Effectively this would be bringing forward the Hobart-class DDG replacement programme forward, and would likely lead to an increase in RAN area air defence capabilities beyond whatever expected capabilities the GPF is supposed to have.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Wild hare thought I did have recently. What if gov't decided to torpedoe the SEA 3000 GPF project which came out of the DSR and subsequent naval review, and were instead to go back to building nine Hunter-class frigates, and then reach out to Japan to see about ordering some Maya-class destroyers and then license production of the resulting design in Australia? Effectively this would be bringing forward the Hobart-class DDG replacement programme forward, and would likely lead to an increase in RAN area air defence capabilities beyond whatever expected capabilities the GPF is supposed to have.
Even if Japan had the capability to build more destroyers, it would come back to Australia being able to crew, and long lead items from the US. So even if both countries wanted that, it may not be possible. Also some long lead items from the US, may be gobbled up by the US trying to accelerate its own programs. If anyone was getting those destroyers other than Japan, it would be the US!

Accelerating Hunter is also difficult, cause the program is still in its early phases with all build partners. There is the possibility to accelerate it later, but by then we are into delivery times in the late 2030's or 2040s. Hunter being a big western ship program also relies on much of the supply chain of UK-AU-US.. which, again runs into the same sort of problems.

Also I think we should consider the strategic situation for Japan.

If war breaks out, and Japan starts losing ships, and if Australia still had some flexibility to increase hunter production and life extend its Anzacs and maybe get a ship from Spain, Australia would possibly even consider transferring its Mogami ships back to Japan, and possibly transferring other Australian built ships, to Japan. Depending of course on the security situation for Australia. Now everyone is going to take that out of context, and there is more context than I am giving, but if ships could be made available to assist by transfer, I think we would happily do that.

This would be huge for Japan in the dark days of war or just after it. Imagine if Australia could just transfer 6 ships straight away to Japan, while perhaps taking 6 damaged ships in for repair during conflict. It would be massive. Particularly if other key players were indisposed or unclear on their commitment.

Because those ships would be much better operating in that region fighting, than sitting around our EEZ watching it all go down.

As we have seen in Ukraine, having something to give is huge, in high intensity war. You need production, secured, but perhaps outside of the conflict zone. Which is also why Germany just bought a billion bucks worth of land vehicles they could build themselves.

Much like people questioning why Korean companies are setting up Manufacturing operations for Huntsman, with on ~36 units being ordered. Because its not about Australia. Its about Korea and a second supply. Australia is the perfect place to setup production, plenty of steel/resources, far away from conflict, but close enough to ship/fly it, Australia politically super stable, tight in the US alliance, China tried bloody hard to pressure it, and has had zero success. Not only that, Australia has no real pressing need for the dam things themselves, other than perhaps a few dozen units.

Which is why, IMO, we are doing this whole thing. It has absolutely nothing really to do with Hunter or Hobarts, or China invading Australia. Or hitting OPV with missiles.

IT has everything about alliances and what is happening in north Asia. Which is why the Koreans and Japanese are absolutely bonkers on this ship program. It isn't a commercial program for them, its about existential existence going forward. If they can't lock in AU interest or secure some deeper US ties they are really worried.

It is also a deterrent in itself. Another 6 ships doesn't change the war in a China/Japan conflict. But having a whole continent ready and willing to supply equipment, food, fuel, right up to and including large ships sure is. With whole manufacturing capability, support and repair capability. There would be no question at all, that if Japan goes to war, that Australia would, openly, quickly support Japan in that conflict, against any threat to itself. Australia has huge influence within the global order and with the UK and US alliance partners.

However, I think the US would also support Japan, but with things like Trump, there is this fear, if China hit at the right chaotic time, that the US would be preoccupied elsewhere.

Because we know, to hit Australia would require the same type of effort and the same long range weapons to hit at the US. Given the choice those weapons are always going to be better spent hitting bigger and more valuable targets in the US. The US is the strategic competitor to China. Not Australia. If China out muscles the US, Australia isn't going to give China any sort of global strategic competition any time in the future. Effectively we can be ignored or hit with cyber. Expending all that effort to knock on Australia is strategically stupid. China is most likely going to tear the global order in half, and have half for it and half for the US, IMO that is the likely outcome, they will then wait for what they see as the inevitable US collapse to pick up the other half, or have their half be more successful and simply buy out the other half.

What Japan and Korea fear is a Ukraine type situation. Where they are fighting, and everyone else sits back and watches. Even closely aligned and nearby countries struggle with the political and ethical questions of what and how much to supply. Afraid of China, afraid of escalation, afraid of their own security. Or like Korea-Poland, that their alliance partners are in their own existential conflict with someone else. These countries have no strategic depth, even less than Ukraine has, so in a high intensity conflict they know they will wear a very heavy cost.

Because in that situation, China would simply pummel them, an isolated Korea and/or an isolated Japan. China isn't Russia, it wouldn't slide in over confident with a mild incursion. Even if China lost all the battles, those countries would be blown back to the middle ages for a thousand years, worse than WW2, while China would be left basically untouched. For China to win, they don't even need to win any battle, they just need to damage their immediate neighbors. China isn't interested in some sort of mild increase in territory, its about up ending the global order.

So this is why I don't really support upgunning OPVs, and why I think a Korean/Japanese ship would be a good program to have. It has wider strategic impact, much more than just the steel and naval tonnage (which is still significant for Australia). At a cost of a few billions, seems like we get a much bigger impact.

While Australia is always obsessed with getting a few mega units of some sort of uber wonderweapon, realistically, 11 x 6,200 frigates with drones and 32VLS is a massive win for our surface capability. So much so, I am not sure if chasing bigger capabilities than ~6 x Hunters, 3 x AWD (followed by 3 Superhunters), 11 x frigates is really going to do much more for Australia's surface capabilities. That would be an excellent surface combatant navy. Follow it up with SSNs and our LHDs and other capabilities and we are rocking a pretty tight outfit. Shame it won't be ready by 2027..

Given that the major cost/resource, crewing, will be ball park of 16xOPV's that seems like a pretty good trade off.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Looking at it holistically the ANZACs are currently deploying with crew sizes not dissimilar to the Hobart's or proposed for the Hunters. Once you have around 200 crew automation and redundancy can let you have a larger, more capable ship with only incremental increases in crew size.

You can have layered damage control and emergency systems in a larger, better designed ship.

Before the GP frigates were announced I was hoping for a properly designed corvette because, to be honest, I couldn't see the government going for a frigate. The reason is a corvette, designed as a corvette, is a warship. It has a sturdier structure, better subdivision, better damage control and greater redundancy. Over all, they are much more survivable.

Now we are getting frigates I couldn't be happier. Proper warships to take over from the ANZACs, and possibly from the MCMVs. Their role will be similar to that of the WWII sloops and frigates, survivable, versatile and useful ships to do the things minor vessels can't and majors are wasted in.

With a fleet of GP frigates PBs actually become viable again. Cheap and nasty, they can head back to harbour when the weather gets bad because there is a sufficient number of something much better to stay out there.
 

SammyC

Well-Known Member
What Japan and Korea fear is a Ukraine type situation. Where they are fighting, and everyone else sits back and watches.
Stingray, I hadn't really considered that perception from Japan and Korea. Perhaps I should have. That makes clear sense and resonates why they would over capitalise in factories in Australia. Not for us, but for them. Explains why Norway might consider us for missiles as well, and why Germany supports our Boxer plant.

I suspect we would have a reciprocal interest in their protection, as if they fall, then any conflict will be at our doorstep.

It seems that we have built a reputation for being dependable in a storm, not easily coerced and the last to leave an ally's side. A reputation built over a century. That, and our goldilocks geography, seem more import than being the best and most powerful in this new era.

For all our inefficiencies, we are suddenly hot property. Feels weird, like being the school yard dork to the prom queen. The 2030's are going to be an interesting time, as our shell, missile, drone, shipping and vehicle plants all come online and mature at full capacity.

Perhaps we will start to produce more weapons than rocks. Or at least convert some of those rocks to more useful weapons.
 
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Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
For all our inefficiencies, we are suddenly hot property. Feels weird, like being the school yard dork to the prom queen. The 2030's are going to be an interesting time, as our shell, missile, drone, shipping and vehicle plants all come online and mature at full capacity.

Perhaps we will start to produce more weapons than rocks. Or at least convert some of those rock to weapons.
I'd be careful with the word "inefficiencies" in regards to high end defence equipment. Inefficient would be building lots of stuff cheaply that isn't fit for purpose.
 

protoplasm

Active Member
Perhaps we will start to produce more weapons than rocks. Or at least convert some of those rock to weapons.
The conversion that you allude to is critical. On top of having factories that are ready to go we need a much greater Indigenous capacity to convert rocks into the materials needed to produce the weapons. Do we have the expansion capacity in our Steel mills to produce the high strength steels needed for warship/submarine/armoured vehicle repair and production? Do we have the rare earths processing capacity to produce the components needed? Do we have the means to manufacture the processors needed if we had to? It doesn't mean we need to be doing it now, it's the thinking about do we have the expansion capacity in the our systems to get from the mine to the final finish factory.

We are at the end of loooooooong SLOC which can be intercepted/disrupted. If we are to have a resilient capacity to produce weapons and whole defence systems, there needs to be planning for how this would all come together without importing materials or parts.
 

SammyC

Well-Known Member
I'd be careful with the word "inefficiencies" in regards to high end defence equipment. Inefficient would be building lots of stuff cheaply that isn't fit for purpose.
Understood. I meant producing good quality and fit for purpose gear, but more expensively than other suppliers. We have never had the low cost capability of the Germans, Koreans or Japanese.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
Tier 1 and tier 2 are labels not categories and unfortunately people are conflating capabilities because they do not understand what goes into a warship design.

A well armed high end GP frigate is not a high end ASW or air defence combatant, no matter what it is armed with.

How do we know this?

Easy, the parent navies are building actual high end ASW and air defence combatants alongside the GP frigates we are looking at.

At the same time, and OPV with a high end radar and a VLS is not a GP frigate, it is an over capitalised OPV.

Gaffa taping extra gear on it will never make it as survivable or versatile as a purpose designed GP frigate.

Look at Samuel B Roberts

Would an OPV, ANZAC or even a Hobart survive what an Oliver Hazard Perry class frigate did? The crew performed heroically and professionally but would a crew of the same calibre have a chance in a tarted up OPV?

Structural strength, subdivision, redundancy, all play a part, things that are not factored into cheap designs because they are expensive. Crew size matters, not enough trained people means no chance for damage control in even a well designed ship.

The leading GP frigate contenders will be a bucket load better than the OPVs, and the ANZACs, but likely not as good as a Hobart, and nowhere near as survivable as a Hunter.

All of this is before you start looking at signatures, sensors, etc. how well they can see and hear.

When people start saying tier 2 GP frigates are as good as tier 1 ASW frigates because of their size and potential armament, we are back in the situation where successive governments were able to pretend a Patrol Frigate, after being upgraded to a GP frigate, could replace a DDG.

When you realise the DDGs were bought because the DLGs the RAN probably really needed, were seen as unaffordable, you start to get the picture.

Conflating OPVs with patrol frigates, with GP frigates, with ASW frigates, with air defence frigates, with destroyers, and you end up with arm chair experts and novices (including politicians and journalists), believing OPVs are cruisers.

Hell just look at the NSM armed Cape some were getting sexually aroused over a few months back.
Arghhhhh but don’t those NSM armed Capes look cool.

Cheers S. :)
 
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iambuzzard

Well-Known Member
Yes, yes, yes, this.

Sorry, but the above is what I have been banging on about whenever the notion of upgrading the armament of the Arafura-class OPV's gets brought up. Like it or not, the Arafura-class OPV's are what were ordered and either built, or in the process of being built. Without spending some serious coin, they cannot really be made into something like an FSG, and even then, because certain design features were not likely included in an OPV, one would still not end up with a vessel as capable or survivable as a purpose built combatant of that size.

Wild hare thought I did have recently. What if gov't decided to torpedoe the SEA 3000 GPF project which came out of the DSR and subsequent naval review, and were instead to go back to building nine Hunter-class frigates, and then reach out to Japan to see about ordering some Maya-class destroyers and then license production of the resulting design in Australia? Effectively this would be bringing forward the Hobart-class DDG replacement programme forward, and would likely lead to an increase in RAN area air defence capabilities beyond whatever expected capabilities the GPF is supposed to have.
But how would that affect the proposed increased fleet numbers? It's a can of worms.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
But how would that affect the proposed increased fleet numbers? It's a can of worms.
The basic wild-hared idea was that in place of the SEA 3000 GPF's, go back to building nine Hunter-class FFG's, and then kickstart the Hobart-class DDG replacement, with the first batch of DDG's built overseas like is currently planned for the initial batch of GPF's. Instead of running a simultaneous build of 11 GPF's and six Hunter-class DDG's, there would be up to nine DDG's built replacing the three Hobart-class DDG's and nine Hunter-class FFG's. As things stand now, it appears that if the current build plans run complete through the 2040's, by the end there should be three Hobart-class DDG's about to decommission and get replaced, with six Hunter-class FFG's and then 11 GPF's in service for a total fleet size of ~20 MFU's. My idea would change that so that around the same time in the 2040's, there might be 21 MFU's in service. There would still be the three Hobart-class DDG's set to decommission, but there would otherwise be about nine each of the Hunter-class FFG's and nine other/newer (and hopefully better) DDG's for area and fleet air defence.
 

BSKS

New Member
Interesting additional information on the GPF acquisition process provided by Minister Conroy at a press conference today. When asked about the GPF process by Kym Bergman, he answered as follows:

We've flipped it on the head for this acquisition because the strategic circumstances demand an urgent enlargement of the Royal Australian Navy. So the independent Surface Fleet Review identified five exemplar frigates that would meet the need for a general-purpose frigate. We've now gone out to the market to ask them to provide the best information about what they're currently producing, and what they would offer to the Royal Australian Navy. Then we as a Government will pick the one that's closest to our needs.

So instead of inviting people to design something from scratch, meet all our requirements, we're going to pick the best ‑ the one that best fits our needs around cost, schedule and capability, and again with very minimal changes. We're working through that now. We've received information from the five companies involved, and we'll make those decisions in due course.

Obviously we'll be cognisant that there may be potentially some requirement, changes requirement around Australian legal obligations around safety standards, but we'll see what information comes back from the companies.

But I'm really excited. If you think about the timeframe for this, announced in February, March this year, down select soon, soon, entering contract and cutting steel early 2026 with delivery by the end of the decade. That is light speed for a Defence project, and it's justified by the strategic circumstances and justified by the commitment of the Albanese Labor Government to accelerate delivery of key capabilities.


The interesting part for me was the "... what they are currently producing, and what they would offer to the Royal Australian Navy..."

Does that suggest that the vendors were free to offer upgrades to their exemplar designs to suit the RAN? If that were true, it would explain why at IODS24 we saw designs evolved from the exemplars such as Upgraded Mogami, Ocean 4300 and Alpha 3000 with CEA Radar.

Perhaps the govt "no changes" mandate only applies to the tender submitted design, not to the current in service version of the exemplar???

This is good news if true because it means the RAN will more likely retain familiar systems such as 9LV, US weapons and perhaps CEA Radar. Like to see further interpretations.
 

justinterested

New Member
It seems that the defence collaboration between Australia and Japan is increasing, as evidenced by the recent Janes article - Japan and Australia have agreed to expand collaboration on long-range strike weapons.

A pertinent quote from this article is “Speaking in a press conference, Japan's Defense Minister Minoru Kihara also said enhanced bilateral co-operation will centre on naval vessels – including a potential deal involving Japan's Mogami-class frigate – and research on underwater robotic and autonomous systems.”

This mutually beneficial military relationship including a naval vessel which ticks all the necessary boxes, augurs well for the future defence needs of Australia. I would agree with BSKS that there appears to be a willingness, as reported by the media at least, to perhaps consider a loosening of the “no change” and “ currently in production” requirements.
 

Reptilia

Well-Known Member
Down select to 2 in the next few months supposably. Final decision made next year and if it is the Upgraded Mogami, the government can say that it is a frigate currently in production.
 

Scott Elaurant

Well-Known Member
Since it excites you S, here’s a refresher courtesy of Naval News.

View attachment 51678
Now that we are building NSMs here, I assume that in the event of a future conflict, this sort of conversion could always be done as a retrofit fairly quickly. First priority for NSMs should be to arm our proper warships with them.

(I still agree with Stingray that our first priority for construction should be building proper frigates with ASW, SSM and AA self defence capability.)
 

iambuzzard

Well-Known Member
Now that we are building NSMs here, I assume that in the event of a future conflict, this sort of conversion could always be done as a retrofit fairly quickly. First priority for NSMs should be to arm our proper warships with them.

(I still agree with Stingray that our first priority for construction should be building proper frigates with ASW, SSM and AA self defence capability.)
If the s**t hits the fan we'll be be arming tugboats with NSM!
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
Interesting additional information on the GPF acquisition process provided by Minister Conroy at a press conference today. When asked about the GPF process by Kym Bergman, he answered as follows:

We've flipped it on the head for this acquisition because the strategic circumstances demand an urgent enlargement of the Royal Australian Navy. So the independent Surface Fleet Review identified five exemplar frigates that would meet the need for a general-purpose frigate. We've now gone out to the market to ask them to provide the best information about what they're currently producing, and what they would offer to the Royal Australian Navy. Then we as a Government will pick the one that's closest to our needs.

So instead of inviting people to design something from scratch, meet all our requirements, we're going to pick the best ‑ the one that best fits our needs around cost, schedule and capability, and again with very minimal changes. We're working through that now. We've received information from the five companies involved, and we'll make those decisions in due course.

Obviously we'll be cognisant that there may be potentially some requirement, changes requirement around Australian legal obligations around safety standards, but we'll see what information comes back from the companies.

But I'm really excited. If you think about the timeframe for this, announced in February, March this year, down select soon, soon, entering contract and cutting steel early 2026 with delivery by the end of the decade. That is light speed for a Defence project, and it's justified by the strategic circumstances and justified by the commitment of the Albanese Labor Government to accelerate delivery of key capabilities.


The interesting part for me was the "... what they are currently producing, and what they would offer to the Royal Australian Navy..."

Does that suggest that the vendors were free to offer upgrades to their exemplar designs to suit the RAN? If that were true, it would explain why at IODS24 we saw designs evolved from the exemplars such as Upgraded Mogami, Ocean 4300 and Alpha 3000 with CEA Radar.

Perhaps the govt "no changes" mandate only applies to the tender submitted design, not to the current in service version of the exemplar???

This is good news if true because it means the RAN will more likely retain familiar systems such as 9LV, US weapons and perhaps CEA Radar. Like to see further interpretations.
Any mockup we saw with the CEA Radar is just that. A mockup. To basically order a ship next February and have it in service before the end of the decade doesn't leave much time for integrating new systems. Having said that the "No Changes" mandate does sound a bit over the top,

How difficult it would really be to integrate missiles such as the NSM. The NSM is basically a shoot and forget missile. There didn't seem to be any problems just swapping out the Harpoon for NSM on HMAS Sydney.
 

SammyC

Well-Known Member
Maybe part of the joint program is the sharing of CEA technologies?
That is a thought that I have been pondering as well Reptilia.

While both Mitsubishi and Hanwa already make modern EASA radars for their respective platforms, I would not view they are on the same level as ceafar, particularly how we have integrated multiple frequencies into a small package. Additionally, our software is recognised as amongst the best (radars are just as much about programming for how to use the panels and interpret the return signals as the physical panels themselves).

Neither country would give up their production, but perhaps they would be open and interested in licencing ceafar. I'll go one step further suggest they could partner, or buy in, or jointly develop future radars.

Would the Aust government consider selling a minority/equal share in CEA to either Mitsubishi or directly to the Japanese government?
 

Going Boeing

Well-Known Member
If the s**t hits the fan we'll be be arming tugboats with NSM!
If the s**t hits the fan, the supply of NSM’s would run out quickly so it wouldn’t surprise me to see Harpoons brought out of storage and fitted to the non Tier 1 & 2 ships. I suspect that Harpoon will remain in service on the Collins class for a while yet so all the supporting infrastructure will still be in place.

Any mockup we saw with the CEA Radar is just that. A mockup. To basically order a ship next February and have it in service before the end of the decade doesn't leave much time for integrating new systems. Having said that the "No Changes" mandate does sound a bit over the top,

How difficult it would really be to integrate missiles such as the NSM. The NSM is basically a shoot and forget missile. There didn't seem to be any problems just swapping out the Harpoon for NSM on HMAS Sydney.
Apart from “power, cooling & physical space” requirements (which should be more abundant in the Mogami), would fitting the CEAFAR, 9LV, etc in the same configuration as the ANZAC class be particularly onerous? As all the software has been written and in service for a while integrated with a lot of the same systems as fitted to the Mogami. I’m definitely not pushing this in contravention of the “No Changes” policy but, the reported advantages of the CEAFAR/9LV system makes it highly desirable if it can be done in the very tight timeframe.
 
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