Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

[Stampede]

Intriguing discussion on how much autonomy people would be willing to give to a war machine. Do we let them fight on our behalf, and how much of the final fire decision does the machine get to make.

I would view that if faced with a choice to put people or machines in harms way, we will select machines (nobody likes the imagery of dead soldiers). Machines can detect and react faster than us, so a machine that can make its own decision, is going to be superior to a machine that needs to wait for a humun authority. If you want our machines to be in the fight, let alone have the chance to win, ultimately the machines will need autonomy.

I also question the benefit of the human in the fire chain. We are a long way from having perfect decision making capabilities. Either because of error, or deliberate malevolence. We worry about a robot mistaking the wrong target, I doubt they could be worse than humans at this. We worry about robots killing civilians. Ukraine shows we are very good at that ourselves.

Australia recently purchased some really nice smart sea mines from RWM Italia. These things sit on the ocean floor listening for the right target and then activate. All by themselves. We already have the first batch. What is the difference between that and a torpedo carrying ghost shark patroling a region by itself, listening for a defined target and then firing. Our choice in this process is to release the machine or not, and the parameters we give it to define an enemy target.

Perhaps we need to invest in IFF system improvements as our mitigation.

Armed autonomous machines are going to be available this decade in numbers. Our enemies will certainly deploy them.

Interesting observation and questions.

Things are moving very fast is this realm and we will be forced to commit to a certain path.
Not sure what that looks like for the ADF, but as you point out the other guy may very well have a different view on this subject.

Interesting Times.


Cheers S

 

[SammyC]

RAAF C-17 makes Ghost Shark undersea vehicle delivery to US

here's an interesting one for ghost shark. Apparently we showed it off to the Americans, and it got a part time gig in the recent RIMPAC.

Ghost shark's dimensions have never been publicised, however it evidently fits in a 40 ft sea container.

 

[MARKMILES77]

Kongsberg funded by Government to open a NSM/JSM factory in Newcastle.
$850 Million for construction and first 7 years of operation.
Initial full capacity will be 100 missiles per year (mostly for Australia) but likely capacity for expansion if exports required.

Kongsberg to build Naval and Joint Strike Missiles in Australia - Australian Defence Magazine

Kongsberg Defence Australia has been named the newest strategic partner of the Guided Weapons and Explosive Ordnance Enterprise.

www.australiandefence.com.au

 

[Scott Elaurant]

Kongsberg funded by Government to open a NSM/JSM factory in Newcastle.
$850 Million for construction and first 7 years of operation.
Initial full capacity will be 100 missiles per year (mostly for Australia) but likely capacity for expansion if exports required.

Kongsberg to build Naval and Joint Strike Missiles in Australia - Australian Defence Magazine

Kongsberg Defence Australia has been named the newest strategic partner of the Guided Weapons and Explosive Ordnance Enterprise.

www.australiandefence.com.au

I think this is great news. Kongsberg make both the NSM and JSM. Building both locally is good for both the RAAF and RAN. I have nothing against US aerospace manufacturers like Lockheed Martin. Nevertheless they have order books years long, so local supply might solve a lot of problems.

In addition Kongsberg make an air defence system (NASAMs) and are developing a supersonic strike missile (3SM). So in future, if this works well and we develop a manufacturing capability matching the required standards, we could meet other needs too.

Norway acquires new NASAMS air defence systems

The Norwegian government has ordered new NASAMS air defence systems from Kongsberg Defence & Aerospace (KONGSBERG), which will strengthen the country’s defence capabilities to combat aerial threats. The contract has a value of approximately NOK XX billion, with expected deliveries from 2027.

www.kongsberg.com

 

[Going Boeing]

Australia has been working with Kongsberg to develop the seeker for the Joint Strike Missile so this relationship has now developed further to allow local construction of both missile types. This is a very desirable capability.

The relationship could progress further as Kongsberg could sell NASAMS to friendly nations in the Australian Army configuration ie, with CEA radars.

 

[ADMk2]

Australia has been working with Kongsberg to develop the seeker for the Joint Strike Missile so this relationship has now developed further to allow local construction of both missile types. This is a very desirable capability.

The relationship could progress further as Kongsberg could sell NASAMS to friendly nations in the Australian Army configuration ie, with CEA radars.

Part of the seeker. We have developed a home on jam seeker, to be added to the existing GPS/INS/IIR/ATR seeker package already on-board the missile.

 

[SteveR]

Kongsberg funded by Government to open a NSM/JSM factory in Newcastle.
$850 Million for construction and first 7 years of operation.
Initial full capacity will be 100 missiles per year (mostly for Australia) but likely capacity for expansion if exports required.

Kongsberg to build Naval and Joint Strike Missiles in Australia - Australian Defence Magazine

Kongsberg Defence Australia has been named the newest strategic partner of the Guided Weapons and Explosive Ordnance Enterprise.

www.australiandefence.com.au

But the NSM engine is French I think, whilst the JSM engine is US made. I presume we will still have to rely on overseas supply for these?

 

[76mmGuns]

RAAF C-17 makes Ghost Shark undersea vehicle delivery to US

here's an interesting one for ghost shark. Apparently we showed it off to the Americans, and it got a part time gig in the recent RIMPAC.

Ghost shark's dimensions have never been publicised, however it evidently fits in a 40 ft sea container.

Wasn't ghost shark 2.72 tons, 5. something metres long? It was in the article I linked a few comments back.

 

[76mmGuns]

Kongsberg funded by Government to open a NSM/JSM factory in Newcastle.
$850 Million for construction and first 7 years of operation.
Initial full capacity will be 100 missiles per year (mostly for Australia) but likely capacity for expansion if exports required.

Kongsberg to build Naval and Joint Strike Missiles in Australia - Australian Defence Magazine

Kongsberg Defence Australia has been named the newest strategic partner of the Guided Weapons and Explosive Ordnance Enterprise.

www.australiandefence.com.au

100 missiles a year sounds extremely good imho. Just look at what the US is ordering. It's only about 100 NSM a year.

https://comptroller.defense.gov/Portals/45/Documents/defbudget/FY2024/MYP_Exhibits/NSM_NAVY_MYP_1-3.pdf

"Appropriation / Budget Activity: P-1 Item Nomenclature: Exhibit MYP-1, Multiyear Procurement Criteria 1507 Weapons Procurement - Navy / Other Missiles (BA-02) Naval Strike Missile (NSM) Date: 2024

1. Multiyear Procurement Description: This proposal would provide authority for the Secretary of Navy to enter into a multiyear contract for the procurement of up to 516 Naval Strike Missiles (NSM) for the fiscal year (FY) 2024 through FY 2028 program. Advance procurement for economic order quantities begin in FY 2024. This is a five year MYP contract.

This multiyear contract uses Economic Order Quantity Advance Procurement funding to provide the U.S. GOvernment maximum savings in price. Advance Procurement funding will enable material and component suppliers and subcontractors with sufficient lead time to support the planned delivery schedule within the context of the multiyear funding, prices, and cancellation ceilings."

 

[StingrayOZ]

We have had a long history with Kongsberg.. JSM is supposed to be helicopter compatible, and NSM submarine compatible. So if we are building a lot of these, they could fill more niches within the ADF.

The munition may also be suitable for arming drones, ~400kg, that would fit in some flying and underwater platforms in development.

But the NSM engine is French I think, whilst the JSM engine is US made. I presume we will still have to rely on overseas supply for these?

As with most supply chains, it takes time, the missiles will initially be built probably from basically kits sent from overseas. Then we can integrate and develop local production items over time.

With items like those, you often look for synergies with other applications too.

 

[Sandson41]

Wasn't ghost shark 2.72 tons, 5. something metres long? It was in the article I linked a few comments back.

I checked the article. They're talking about the Dive-LD model they scaled up from. Looks like Ghost Shark is a lot bigger.

Ghost Shark is probably too big to deploy from a Hunter's mission bay (40ft containers can be loaded apparently, but only through the hanger and not sideways) but I should think you could lift one over the side of ADV Reliant...

 

[seaspear]

I'm not sure of the weight of the Ghost Shark and if the cranes on RAN ships are large enough , but could such vessels be deployed from a cradle from the Canberra class ships in a similar manner to amphibious launches

 

[hauritz]

I'm not sure of the weight of the Ghost Shark and if the cranes on RAN ships are large enough , but could such vessels be deployed from a cradle from the Canberra class ships in a similar manner to amphibious launches

Theory time.
Australia has teamed up with Japan to develop UUVs. It just so happens that the Mogami class is the only GPF contender that has a stern ramp capable of operating UUVs. It may well be that the larger and beamier FFM may already be compatable with XL-AUV such as Ghost Shark.

Australia teams up with Japan to develop unmanned underwater vehicles

According to information published by the Australian DoD on January 23, 2024, Australia and Japan have embarked on a groundbreaking agreement to jointly de

armyrecognition.com

Our First Look at Japan's New XLUUV Submarine Drone - Naval News

Japan’s ATLA has showed to Naval News its Extra-large unmanned underwater vehicle (XLUUV), which now is now at R&D phase.

www.navalnews.com

 

[swerve]

In addition Kongsberg make an air defence system (NASAMs)

Kongsberg makes the control system. Raytheon makes the missiles & radar. From the link on the Kongsberg website, it looks as if Rheinmetall makes the electro-optical sensor. Dunno about the launcher. But other sensors, & potentially missiles, could be used.

 

[MARKMILES77]

Tomahawk missiles will be available for use by the Navy, by the end of this year.
Address to the Hunter Defence Conference Gala Dinner August 22 2024.
The Hon Pat Conroy MP
Minister for Defence Industry and Capability Delivery

https://www.minister.defence.gov.au/speeches/2024-08-22/address-hunter-defence-conference-gala-dinner

 

[SammyC]

Senator Conroy is letting slip a lot of information in his press releases of late. First that we're getting SM3s, now that we will have TLAM before years end.

I didn't think we would see Tomahawks that soon.

 

[MARKMILES77]

Senator Conroy is letting slip a lot of information in his press releases of late. First that we're getting SM3s, now that we will have TLAM before years end.

I didn't think we would see Tomahawks that soon.

Has he also let slip the actual range of the Harpoon missile?
It is commonly quoted as having a range of around 130 Km when surface launched.
But he seems to be saying it is 200 Km.

 

[Going Boeing]

This Warzone article gives more detail about the Ghost Shark.

Pertinent information includes:

More than a dozen potential payloads

Modular design permits extension modules to enable increased payload

Designed to be produced in large numbers

 

[Reptilia]

ADF YouTube.

 

[Bob53]

100 missiles a year sounds extremely good imho. Just look at what the US is ordering. It's only about 100 NSM a year.

https://comptroller.defense.gov/Portals/45/Documents/defbudget/FY2024/MYP_Exhibits/NSM_NAVY_MYP_1-3.pdf

"Appropriation / Budget Activity: P-1 Item Nomenclature: Exhibit MYP-1, Multiyear Procurement Criteria 1507 Weapons Procurement - Navy / Other Missiles (BA-02) Naval Strike Missile (NSM) Date: 2024

1. Multiyear Procurement Description: This proposal would provide authority for the Secretary of Navy to enter into a multiyear contract for the procurement of up to 516 Naval Strike Missiles (NSM) for the fiscal year (FY) 2024 through FY 2028 program. Advance procurement for economic order quantities begin in FY 2024. This is a five year MYP contract.

This multiyear contract uses Economic Order Quantity Advance Procurement funding to provide the U.S. GOvernment maximum savings in price. Advance Procurement funding will enable material and component suppliers and subcontractors with sufficient lead time to support the planned delivery schedule within the context of the multiyear funding, prices, and cancellation ceilings."

Yes but I don’t think anti ship missile supply is an issue at the moment. It’s anti air and land strike where there is massive production backlogs.