Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
David hasn’t been on the inside of strategic thinking since he ceased to be CN in 2002. He was, and still may be, involved with some commercial organisations - I think LM was one but may be wrong - so he may well have a barrow to push. As Assail has noted, he was a Direction officer so despite commanding Derwent he never seemed to show any real interest in anything other than above water warfare; and he has always had a particular view of force development with which many others would not, and did not, agree. He’s also getting on in years…..

On a side issue, the Navy doesn’t think in tiers. There are Major Surface Combatants and Minor War Vessels, that’s it.
 

Julian 82

Active Member
An ASPI article by retired Adm David Shackleton today outlines the problems of a too small navy with too few ships and too few crews. Shackleton advocates simplification and more numbers, so converting from Hunter production to more (3+9?) Hobart production and converting Luerssen OPV production to Corvette production (presumably C90s).

I assume this would have to be based on Navantia updating the Hobart design for the new hulls to be built to a “Batch 2” design with intended updates such as AEGIS baseline 9, Tomahawks etc. If that occurred, Hobart AWD construction started quickly, and the RAN ended up with 12 Hobarts and 6 C90 corvettes (i.e. Hobart for Hunter substitution not a cut), I’d be fine with that.

The first three Hobarts would still need to be upgraded as planned, but this could be done after the first three “batch 2” Hobarts and corvettes were built, which I presume would reduce the post 2028 gap risk posters here have raised.

I also assume that all these ships would still be built in Australia either Adelaide (Hobarts) or Perth (corvettes + ASC backup if needed). Economies of scale could be achieved with production and it would simplify maintenance. I assume each Hobart would still have an SH60 and towed array sonar, hence adequate for ASW. But Shackleton makes the point that ASW is not now the primary concern.
China has more than 70 submarines and this number is growing each year with more modern designs for SSKs and SSNs. Submarines pose the greatest threat to our sea lines of communication.

In this context, I cannot fathom the statement that ASW is not now the primary concern.

We need large, long range and quiet ASW frigates with room to carry USVs, UUVs and towed sonar arrays. The Hunter / Type 26 fits the bill. Much like the Type 22 frigates and Spruance class destroyers during the Cold War.

The Hobart class will always be inferior in ASW as it is not designed for that purpose. It was always intended to be a cheap general purpose frigate (much like the Oliver Hazard Perry design). Its hull and propulsion systems are noisier and it lacks the mission bay spaces to carry the onboard and off board sensors.
 

Julian 82

Active Member
And yet in those very same waters, we are intending to operate smaller, slower, lower displacement OPV’s... One is 90m and 2300t and is “too small” and the other is 80m and 1600t and will be operated by us?

Strange.
If you load up an OPV with weapons and additional sensors you will eat into your fuel and stores. You can either have a long range, high endurance OPV or a better armed OPV. You can’t have both.

As a comparison, the K130 has a crew of nearly 70 and an endurance of only 7 days.

There is only so much you can cram into a 80 - 90 metre hull.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The thing is the arafuras are not being spoken of as an alternative to the Hunters. I'm happy to have OPVs instead of patrol boats but not armed opvs instead of frigates.
And none of the proposals being made public that I have viewed are suggesting Corvettes replace frigates. It is being proposed they replace Arafura Class OPV’s, which was to my point. 80m, 1600t vessels aren’t being publicly disparaged for their sea-keeping or supposed lack thereof in our “unique” environment, but 90m, 2300t vessels are…
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
If you load up an OPV with weapons and additional sensors you will eat into your fuel and stores. You can either have a long range, high endurance OPV or a better armed OPV. You can’t have both.

As a comparison, the K130 has a crew of nearly 70 and an endurance of only 7 days.

There is only so much you can cram into a 80 - 90 metre hull.
Perhaps that is why one is 1600t, 80m long and has a beam of 13m, while the other is 2300t, 90m long and has a 13.5m beam?

But of course you can have both. Particularly when our Arafura is all but un-armed, yet it’s original design was far better armed... I am not aware of any significant range / endurance gains the Arafuras have benefitted from being de-specc’d when compared to the Darussalam Class, the publicly released stats on the ships actually show the opposite.

What the Arafuras are however, is a shite load cheaper - which seems to have been their primary design requirement...

In any case, Luerssen won the contest for Arafura OPV with it’s pitch, did they not? Clearly they have some idea of what the RAN wants / needs. I hardly think they would have pitched an armed Corvette to replace their own OPV project halfway through the build without having a clue as to what RAN might want from a politically imposed Corvette design…
 

Meriv90

Active Member
can you correct if my perception is wrong?

The more time you loose choosing the solution the higher chances (regardless of how improbable they are already, like for example from a 1% to a 5% lets say) of ending up with an US design (Constellation) increase?
 

H_K

Member
As a comparison, the K130 has a crew of nearly 70 and an endurance of only 7 days.

There is only so much you can cram into a 80 - 90 metre hull.
K130 is a bit of a red herring though… a littoral corvette designed for the Baltic Sea so hardly surprising that it is wholly unsuited for the RAN’s needs.

A fairer starting point for this discussion would be a proper ocean-going corvette. There aren’t many examples out there - perhaps the Sigma 9814 / 10514 come closest (just to illustrate). These are often referred to as light frigates, which is accurate as in this ~2,500 ton size range it becomes possible to simultaneously cover all major domains, including ASW (with VDS sonar), AAW (self-defense) and ASuW.

Likewise endurance & range are OK though still not great (3 weeks endurance and 4,000nm range at 18 knots for Sigma 9813 for example)… perhaps could be improved somewhat on larger variants.

Not saying the RAN would fall in love with this type of ship, but at least you’re getting somewhat closer to Anzac-level capability for open ocean escort and patrolling SLOCs… basically a modern Leander/River class.

P.S. Interestingly Damen partnered with Saab to offer 9LV CMS on the Brazilian frigate program so it seems likely Damen could do the same in Australia. That might make them a contender if the RAN decides it needs something more capable than Lurssen’s C90 but still buildable quickly and in numbers by Civmec.
 

OldTex

Well-Known Member
On a side issue, the Navy doesn’t think in tiers. There are Major Surface Combatants and Minor War Vessels, that’s it.
So the Major Surface Combatants comprise 3 AAW vessels (closer to frigates than destroyers) and 8 almost GP frigates, with the 8 frigates to be replaced by up to 9 ASW frigates.
The Minor War Vessels comprise ACPBs, evolved Capes, MHCs and hydrographic ships. The ACPBs are being replaced with 12 Arafura OPVs with the MHCs and hyrographic ships to be replaced by 8 additional Arafura's.
Given the government's desire to "increase presence and persistent presence etc", it seems that a number of light frigates would be a likely option to bridge from the Minor War Vessels to the Major Surface Combatants. The OPVs being built could serve initially as ACPB replacements until the light frigates begin to be commissioned and then they could be converted to the needed MCM and hydrographic vessels as well as providing a platform for re-introducing the minelayer capability.
Perhaps a question that needs to be answered is whether the RAN should provide and man constabulary vessels or should this role (and the vessels to conduct the role) belong with another agency. It is unlikely that the Surface Fleet review will provide that answer.
 

Morgo

Well-Known Member
K130 is a bit of a red herring though… a littoral corvette designed for the Baltic Sea so hardly surprising that it is wholly unsuited for the RAN’s needs.

A fairer starting point for this discussion would be a proper ocean-going corvette. There aren’t many examples out there - perhaps the Sigma 9814 / 10514 come closest (just to illustrate). These are often referred to as light frigates, which is accurate as in this ~2,500 ton size range it becomes possible to simultaneously cover all major domains, including ASW (with VDS sonar), AAW (self-defense) and ASuW.

Likewise endurance & range are OK though still not great (3 weeks endurance and 4,000nm range at 18 knots for Sigma 9813 for example)… perhaps could be improved somewhat on larger variants.

Not saying the RAN would fall in love with this type of ship, but at least you’re getting somewhat closer to Anzac-level capability for open ocean escort and patrolling SLOCs… basically a modern Leander/River class.

P.S. Interestingly Damen partnered with Saab to offer 9LV CMS on the Brazilian frigate program so it seems likely Damen could do the same in Australia. That might make them a contender if the RAN decides it needs something more capable than Lurssen’s C90 but still buildable quickly and in numbers by Civmec.
I am still strongly of the view that corvettes are not on the table. If you read what the DSR actually says on the matter:

3CFE9905-E370-4010-B5C0-5685248723E0.jpeg
“Tier 2” vessels are going to need a significant number of VLS to undertake “long range strike” which I can only presume means Tomahawk and it’s successors.

Add on to this that:

- our two AUKUS partners are already building a mix of what they call Tier 1 and Tier 2 (Type 26/45 + Type 31, and Arleigh Burke + Constellation).

- the Government continues to say they are expecting a significant increase in Defence spending in coming years, but the DSR as announced was either a continuation of exisiting plans except the surface force which is getting it’s own review.

- “Maritime Domain Investment Priorities” is the first thing discussed in the force structure section of the DSR, indicating its relative priority.

- finally, the Surface Force Review is being undertaken by a guy for who Tier 1 means a Tico and Tier 2 is an Arleigh Burke, or at worst a Constellation.

If you put all this together this indicates to me that the surface force will be the area getting significant investment over and above what has already been announced, and it may result in a modest cut in Hunters (maybe 9 to 6) but a significant increase in capability from 6 to 12 Tomahawk capable vessels - likely Type 31, Constellation or more Hobarts.

I continue to think corvettes are a red herring. They are simply not suitable for our conditions.

I do not believe that the above is speculative. I think it is the most likely outcome based on what is in the public domain.

Can others provide a counterpoint? What have I missed?
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
I continue to think corvettes are a red herring. They are simply not suitable for our conditions.
Even if they do happen, they apparently won't be at the cost of the major surface combatants and will only be a small group of ships. IMO people are getting way worked up about the difference between say a OPV80 and a OPV90. Like its going to split the universe in half or something. Its literally a 10m larger ship from the same manufacturer and same designer.

Tier 1 and Tier 2 are clearly proper combatants. Tier two implies larger than an Anzac. Strike length missiles.

If you put all this together this indicates to me that the surface force will be the area getting significant investment over and above what has already been announced, and it may result in a modest cut in Hunters (maybe 9 to 6) but a significant increase in capability from 6 to 12 Tomahawk capable vessels - likely Type 31, Constellation or more Hobarts.
I don't see the point of changing the build from Hunters with 32 vls to Constellation with 32 vls or Type 31 with 24-32vls or even flight Hobarts with 48 VLS. There isn't enough capability difference. They are all frigates in literally the same classification and were all assessed for sea5000. They all have 100-150 crew. I am going to use a very crude and flawed metric, but it is simple. The VLS isn't the be all and end of of ships, larger ships tend to be more capable, smaller ships tend to be more compromised. Larger ships while using more crew, tend to offer more capability per crew member. This metric is flawed, Anzacs just carry ESSM. Burkes carry a whole bunch of ESSM, and land attack, and SM-6 and space attack sm-3. This also ignores main gun, torpedos, sonar, radar, helicopter, sea keeping, endurance, speed etc. But I want to illustrate where our problem is.

Anzac with 160 crew and 8 vls makes for 20 people per cell on ship
F-110 with 150 crew and 16 vls makes for 9.4 people per cell on ship
Mogami class has 90 crew and 16 vls makes for 5.625
Hunter/Constellation with 150 crew with 32 vls makes for 4.68 people per "cell on ship"
Type 31 with 100 crew with 32 vls makes for 3.125 per per "cell on ship"
Hobart with 200 crew with 48 vls makes for 4.17 people per "cell on ship"
Advanced Burke class (eg Maya) with 300 crew with 96 vls makes for 3.125 people per "cell on ship"

Our problem is the Anzacs. Those hard working robust little ships. All that robustness, endurance, tie up a large crew on a fairly small and limited ship. It has excellent sensors, they are great presence platforms, but they are not high end warfare platforms to throw high explosives at other threats, they are peace time platforms. You won't be loading LRASM, Tomahawk and SM-6 onto them. They aren't networked.

New more modern ships have more effective crewing. Its not just automation. Its more modern and reliable propulsion. Its better layout. Its the whole ship. Modern ships are designed to take modern sensors and systems, which are notoriously hard to retrofit.

Running peace time platforms into an armed region into war is bad. Expecting them to last until 2046 is absurdity. Even if the metal is plated over, it won't change the fundamentals of that small platform.

Hunter is not the problem, its a symptom. Of a slow decision process. We should have already replaced half the Anzacs by now. We haven't. We need to commit to pushing these hard working ships out of service and replacing them on a better 1 for 1.

Hobart doesn't exactly shift the much needle either. Arguing between Hobart's and Hunters is pointless. While Hobart has more VLS, it takes more crew. Hobart is a bigger platform with great sensors, but again, it limited by size, which limits endurance. You get less days at sea with that platform and require more logistics support. With only 3 of these, and these ships needing urgent upgrading for any sort of conflict, these have been an expensive acquisition, because we aimed so low and then watered the build down to 3. It should have been 6.

Having distributed tier 2 will result significantly less capability if we have tier 2 being anything less than Hunter. Tier 2 is hunter. Turning up to a China threat with anything less than Hunter is laughable. Turning up to a China threat, with just a single Hunter is also perhaps laughable.

Also lots of countries are already building ships like the Type 31. Will it get us where we need to be? What useful and unique capability will Australia bring to the fight if we bring?

Sounds like we need to commit to 18 ships.
Sounds like we need to work out what those 18 ships need to be a mix of.
Sounds like we need to fix ADF (not just RAN) man power issues. Take an 18th century organisation into the 21st century.
Sounds like we need a plan to build this capability a lot faster than 2046.
Sounds like we need a build plan for Henderson that goes past 2026.

I don't see how we can go forward, while so much resources/mindset are still tied up on Anzac and other legacy platforms.

We should have a informed public debate. Building ships isn't a secret. You build and tell the world so they know. Surface ships are bloody great big things that cost huge amounts of money and can be seen from space. There is basically nothing secretive about a ship building plan.

It is the physical manifestation of your defence policy in commitment of time, money, people and steel to build the bloody things. The very essence of gun boat diplomacy and naval power is the other side knows you have a gun boat.

That is why they occupy such an important place in national mindsets. It is a symbol of your national determinism to fight. At the moment what does our Navy say our about our country and our mindset? That we are fractured? That we can't commit to a program for more than one government, or even a single government, and our leadership changes more often than our underpants? That we can't select, build, or operate? That even if we do build that what we have isn't worth much in a fight?

If we don't get this sorted, we won't be fighting anyone, and we will loose. We will have lost while our plans are still tendering, being cancelled or on the design stage.

The Fact that even ASPI is spewing out papers who isn't sure where a C90 fits in and if its replacing a Hunter, or what is going on is worrying. Lots of people are shouting, and facts are thin on the ground. The DSR was meant to figure this out, but instead, more reviews. More delay. More confusion. More wasted money. More importantly more wasted time.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
I am still strongly of the view that corvettes are not on the table. If you read what the DSR actually says on the matter:

View attachment 50723
“Tier 2” vessels are going to need a significant number of VLS to undertake “long range strike” which I can only presume means Tomahawk and it’s successors.

Add on to this that:

- our two AUKUS partners are already building a mix of what they call Tier 1 and Tier 2 (Type 26/45 + Type 31, and Arleigh Burke + Constellation).

- the Government continues to say they are expecting a significant increase in Defence spending in coming years, but the DSR as announced was either a continuation of exisiting plans except the surface force which is getting it’s own review.

- “Maritime Domain Investment Priorities” is the first thing discussed in the force structure section of the DSR, indicating its relative priority.

- finally, the Surface Force Review is being undertaken by a guy for who Tier 1 means a Tico and Tier 2 is an Arleigh Burke, or at worst a Constellation.

If you put all this together this indicates to me that the surface force will be the area getting significant investment over and above what has already been announced, and it may result in a modest cut in Hunters (maybe 9 to 6) but a significant increase in capability from 6 to 12 Tomahawk capable vessels - likely Type 31, Constellation or more Hobarts.

I continue to think corvettes are a red herring. They are simply not suitable for our conditions.

I do not believe that the above is speculative. I think it is the most likely outcome based on what is in the public domain.

Can others provide a counterpoint? What have I missed?
I am still strongly of the view that corvettes are not on the table. If you read what the DSR actually says on the matter:

View attachment 50723
“Tier 2” vessels are going to need a significant number of VLS to undertake “long range strike” which I can only presume me0ans Tomahawk and it’s successors.

Add on to this that:

- our two AUKUS partners are already building a mix of what they call Tier 1 and Tier 2 (Type 26/45 + Type 31, and Arleigh Burke + Constellation).

- the Government continues to say they are expecting a significant increase in Defence spending in coming years, but the DSR as announced was either a continuation of exisiting plans except the surface force which is getting it’s own review.

- “Maritime Domain Investment Priorities” is the first thing discussed in the force structure section of the DSR, indicating its relative priority.

- finally, the Surface Force Review is being undertaken by a guy for who Tier 1 means a Tico and Tier 2 is an Arleigh Burke, or at worst a Constellation.

If you put all this together this indicates to me that the surface force will be the area getting significant investment over and above what has already been announced, and it may result in a modest cut in Hunters (maybe 9 to 6) but a significant increase in capability from 6 to 12 Tomahawk capable vessels - likely Type 31, Constellation or more Hobarts.

I continue to think corvettes are a red herring. They are simply not suitable for our conditions.

I do not believe that the above is speculative. I think it is the most likely outcome based on what is in the public domain.

Can others provide a counterpoint? What have I missed?
That we will replace the Arafura in production with a C90 or some other corvette is pure speculation of course. I actually think it is more likely that they will just keep the Arafura production line as is and upgun it as best as they can.

The whole mantra of impactful projection would suggest whatever the tier two ship turns out to be it will be equipped with lots of missiles.
Unfortunately this isn’t a capability that can be rushed in. Most likely it will be the 2030s before we see these ships.

I don’t see us going back to the Hobart design. The DSR is very clear that the selection process should be shortened as much as possible particularly if there is a really obvious candidate. I think the odds would be pretty short for the type 31, particularly if the number of Hunters is cutback.

As for numbers … the rule of threes would seem to dictate 15 up to maybe 18 surface combatants in total. We will have a better idea in the next couple of months.
 

MickB

Well-Known Member
An ASPI article by retired Adm David Shackleton today outlines the problems of a too small navy with too few ships and too few crews. Shackleton advocates simplification and more numbers, so converting from Hunter production to more (3+9?) Hobart production and converting Luerssen OPV production to Corvette production (presumably C90s).

I assume this would have to be based on Navantia updating the Hobart design for the new hulls to be built to a “Batch 2” design with intended updates such as AEGIS baseline 9, Tomahawks etc. If that occurred, Hobart AWD construction started quickly, and the RAN ended up with 12 Hobarts and 6 C90 corvettes (i.e. Hobart for Hunter substitution not a cut), I’d be fine with that.

The first three Hobarts would still need to be upgraded as planned, but this could be done after the first three “batch 2” Hobarts and corvettes were built, which I presume would reduce the post 2028 gap risk posters here have raised.

I also assume that all these ships would still be built in Australia either Adelaide (Hobarts) or Perth (corvettes + ASC backup if needed). Economies of scale could be achieved with production and it would simplify maintenance. I assume each Hobart would still have an SH60 and towed array sonar, hence adequate for ASW. But Shackleton makes the point that ASW is not now the primary concern.
Sorry but horrorfied by this entire post.
As an Island nation dependent on maritime trade to say ASW is not a concern borders on criminal.

Then to suggest stopping production of the Hunters, for which steel has already been cut and major components ordered and supply lines set up.
To do this this for a Batch 2 Hobart design that doe's not as yet exist finds me unable to find the right words.
Delay, risk ,cost, job loss just to start.

If and only if a second tier ASW focused light frigate such as Arrowhead 120 or BMTs Veantor or better was put into production in WA then the Hunter numbers could be reduced to 6 with the follow on AWD to keep up the drumbeat and keep shipbuilding alive.

For the new AWD I would look at next gen AWDs from UK or South Korea.
 

Reptilia

Well-Known Member
Sorry but horrorfied by this entire post.
As an Island nation dependent on maritime trade to say ASW is not a concern borders on criminal.

Then to suggest stopping production of the Hunters, for which steel has already been cut and major components ordered and supply lines set up.
To do this this for a Batch 2 Hobart design that doe's not as yet exist finds me unable to find the right words.
Delay, risk ,cost, job loss just to start.

If and only if a second tier ASW focused light frigate such as Arrowhead 120 or BMTs Veantor or better was put into production in WA then the Hunter numbers could be reduced to 6 with the follow on AWD to keep up the drumbeat and keep shipbuilding alive.

For the new AWD I would look at next gen AWDs from UK or South Korea.
We have seen type 83 concepts with ceafar in a u.k publication, Aukus partner + If they cut Hunter numbers…
can see

Hobart AWD
2017-1
2018-2
2020-3
More? Unlikely but possible 2028…
to
Hunter(BAE) ASW (First of class in the U.K, around 2027)
2032-1
2034-2
2036-3
2038-4
2040-5
6 potentially
to
Type 83(BAE) AWD (First of class in U.K, around 2037)
2043-1
2045-2 (DC-Hobart 1?)
3047-3 (DC Hobart 2?)
2049-4 (DC-Hobart 3?)
2051-5
6 potentially

Tier 2, also agree, alot more arrow 120 or bmt 110 are a better fit in our EEZ and for sustainment than less 138-145m sized frigates with 20-30% more crew and the inability to be based in the north.
a mix of some 140s and numerous 120s even better.
 

Scott Elaurant

Well-Known Member
We need large, long range and quiet ASW frigates with room to carry USVs, UUVs and towed sonar arrays. The Hunter / Type 26 fits the bill. Much like the Type 22 frigates and Spruance class destroyers during the Cold War.
OK that makes sense but then, if ASW and not AAW is the primary role of the Hunters, why did we bugger around with the design fitting a huge radar suitable for air warfare? If audit reports are correct this has compromised weight and performance and caused a lot of cost and delay. Why not just stick to the Type 26 design with latest AEGIS and Saab combat systems added?
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
And none of the proposals being made public that I have viewed are suggesting Corvettes replace frigates. It is being proposed they replace Arafura Class OPV’s, which was to my point. 80m, 1600t vessels aren’t being publicly disparaged for their sea-keeping or supposed lack thereof in our “unique” environment, but 90m, 2300t vessels are…
Peter Lurssen specifically (if somewhat disingenuously) drew a comparison between his armed OPV designs, claiming equivalence to the ANZACs as well as claiming ten would be better value for money and as capable as an indeterminate number of hunters.

It was obviously marketing hyperbola but with the very real consequence that someone as obviously august knowledgeable and experienced as him has said/implied his armed OPVs are a better option.
 
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swerve

Super Moderator
OK that makes sense but then, if ASW and not AAW is the primary role of the Hunters, why did we bugger around with the design fitting a huge radar suitable for air warfare? If audit reports are correct this has compromised weight and performance and caused a lot of cost and delay. Why not just stick to the Type 26 design with latest AEGIS and Saab combat systems added?
Or a smaller CEAFAR. After all, scalability is touted as one of the advantages of CEAFAR.
 

H_K

Member
Tier 2, also agree, alot more arrow 120 or bmt 110 are a better fit in our EEZ and for sustainment than less 138-145m sized frigates with 20-30% more crew and the inability to be based in the north.
a mix of some 140s and numerous 120s even better.
Part of increasing capability has to be improving « speed to market » (as they would say in my line of work). You can’t do that with paper designs like Arrowhead 120 or BMT 110. And probably not with 6,000 ton Arrowhead 140s either.

For better or worse, smaller off-the-shelf designs that can be delivered within 3 years of contract signature and built on a 6-9 month drumbeat by Civmec *would* increase overall lethality compared to the current path of building Arafuras #6 to #12… so I would expect they are being considered. I don’t see a lot of larger off-the-shelf GP frigate designs that could be delivered this side of 2030.

Just not convinced that Lurssen are (or should be) the only game in town. Damen for one have an excellent track record and have proven they can deliver in <3 years, building in Mexico (of all places!), with a light frigate design that is 9LV compatible… others like Naval Group, TKMS, Fincantieri or Navantia might also make the short list though they might not be as flexible partners.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Peter Lurssen specifically (if somewhat disingenuously) drew a comparison between his armed OPV designs, claiming equivalence to the ANZACs as well as claiming ten would be better value for money and as capable as an indeterminate number of hunters.
He is trying to sell ships, I don't think any really believes that a 2000t OPV is the same as a 3500t frigate.

Just not convinced that Lurssen are (or should be) the only game in town. Damen for one have an excellent track record and have proven they can deliver in <3 years, building in Mexico (of all places!), with a light frigate design that is 9LV compatible… others like Naval Group, TKMS, Fincantieri or Navantia might also make the short list though they might not be as flexible partners.
That will cost $3 billion just to select a design. $3 billion and 3-5 years. That is what it cost to select the F105 for the hobarts before we cut steel.

If you want a group to setup in Australia, then they would need a big order to justify anything more than 100m2 office.

I think Damen are in the dog house after the icebreaker fiasco. Naval group will probably never talk to Australia again. Everyone seems to have a firm dislike for Navantia, although we still keep buying from them.

The koreans and Japanese have skin in the game. But I am not sure any of their designs really transfer to us. Their big ships tend to be variations of Burkes, which Australia seems to hate. The smaller ships also seem unpopular.


Or a smaller CEAFAR. After all, scalability is touted as one of the advantages of CEAFAR.
Arrhh, but money would need to be provided with a smaller mast, and RAN wants capability. I do wonder what radar would we stick on the C90 if that got built. Army should have moved to ceafar for their radars already, and smaller radar set would be useful on other ships, like the amphibs.

If we move to 18 surface combatants. Well there would be lots of work for BAE and Henderson, particularly with small ships, sealift, maintenance etc. If nothing else having a bipartisan announcement to shift to 18 combatants would be very positive defence news, for industry, for the military, for the region. No reason to keep it secret tho...
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
Australia has a long history of stuffing up as far as ship selection is concerned. Even when we get selection half right we still find a way to stuff things up.

The Hobart was a reasonable choice, the AB would have been better but the Hobart was OK, but then we only built three of them. The Attack class submarine was a disaster. Won’t say anything about the boat itself but in the end billions spent, time lost, nothing to show for it.

The Arafura class looks like it was the wrong boat. We should have known better. We were planning for an off shore combatant but ended up with patrol vessel instead.

The Hunter might also be the wrong ship. A big complex ASW ship shoehorned into the air warfare role.

Going back even further it would have been better if Australia had selected a larger more capable vessel than the Anzac.

Not to be too negative we may have gotten a few things right. The SSN deal, assuming no disaster is lurking over the horizon, should see us getting some excellent capability from early next decade. We shouldn’t take too much credit for this however. Without our allies this deal could never have happened.

At this stage of discussions most of the ideas being put forward are actually coming from the ship builders themselves and frankly should be taken with a large grain of salt.

The entire structure of the fleet probably needs to be reviewed. The centrepiece of our navy is now going to be SSNs. This will suck up an enormous amount of our financial resources and there will need to be compromises going forward. The selection at a retired US admiral, whose experience is mostly with nuclear submarines, to conduct a navy review is probably a good one for that reason.

Personally I think the approach to take at the moment is to stick with the decisions we have already made and really start planning properly for the 2030s and beyond. Get the Hunter class into production ASAP, keep building Arafuras but don’t try turning them into corvettes and probably most importantly get those SSNs into service.

Decisions as to whether we go ahead with the full build of Hunters or acquire tier two vessels can be made when we have a clear alternative plan in place.
 
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