Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
I’m somewhat reluctant to ask this, as I do not want to start a fantasy fleet drama.
prev I was of the opinion that F35Bs were expensive & impractical considering the relatively benign environment.
always the presumption of US support, but that might be unrealistic.

govt is developing a ‘short sharp‘ surface fleet review, considering the changed environment. - I’m guessing it’s seeking hulls and VLS boosting.

looking at the perhaps prospect of a few/several hulls of some description and the treasure required for them, is it worth re-visiting the question of air capability for the LHDs?

I foresee the benefits of OTH sensor reach and targeting, releasing RAAF tankers & A models from the struggling extended range CAP issues so as they can concentrate on actual RAAFie things, extra fleet air launched missile defence to supplement those limited VLS magazines & perhaps add a more distant defensive layer negating escort war shots?
would the actual cost of modifying LHDs be a % of just one vessel to be/if proposed by the review?

accepting the actual cost of the aircraft, might that be better value bang for buck for the expeditionary fleet?
assuming both the LHDs are not concurrently tasked and full of amphib kit.

would a deployed amphib operation actually in all practicality resemble the Falklands, and could that have been achieved without persistent and practical air cover, not just the landings but also the proximity transit?
previously it was kinda fantasy but is it actually a very practical enabler?

food for thought?

** I apologise profusely in advance if mods want to slap me down.
LHD and F-35B, unlikely ever…but if AETP were to be doable for the B then maybe this should be revisited. So far it looks like no Adaptive cycle GE engine and the F135 P&W engine will get a new core instead, minimal range improvement but hopefully addresses the power requirements for block 4. The F-35B with a 30% increase in range would certainly make the USMC, the RN, and the Japanese navy happy.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Well I'm not sure I get what your saying but I'll give it a go. The LHD as they currently stand cannot deploy fast jets the fuel bunkerage and weapon stowage is not fit for purpose. They were never really designed for fast jet operations. ... Then there are the enablers, where does your early warning come from and ASW?
The Spanish designed Juan Carlos to operate F-35B, but IIRC the RAN left out the facilities for it when buying the LHDs. I don't know how much work & money it'd take to put 'em back.

They'll be escorted, of course, so there'll be ASW. Nobody would send high value units like than anywhere dangerous, or anywhere at all in dangerous times, unescorted.

Early warning cound be provided. There are helicopter options off the shelf, & UAV options should be relatively easy to provide. It's an extra cost, of course, & would take time, but that's true of F-35Bs.
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The Spanish designed Juan Carlos to operate F-35B, but IIRC the RAN left out the facilities for it when buying the LHDs. I don't know how much work & money it'd take to put 'em back.

They'll be escorted, of course, so there'll be ASW. Nobody would send high value units like than anywhere dangerous, or anywhere at all in dangerous times, unescorted.

Early warning cound be provided. There are helicopter options off the shelf, & UAV options should be relatively easy to provide. It's an extra cost, of course, & would take time, but that's true of F-35Bs.
Good day

My understanding is that the Australian LHD’s are identical to JC1 from the flight deck down. So bunkers and weapons stowage would be the same. Additional systems may be required for the control of fixed wing assets and the deck may need improved coatings (guessing on this).

The issue is that any additional aircraft will remove space for vehicles and that the air wing would be quite small.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Good day

My understanding is that the Australian LHD’s are identical to JC1 from the flight deck down. So bunkers and weapons stowage would be the same. Additional systems may be required for the control of fixed wing assets and the deck may need improved coatings (guessing on this).

The issue is that any additional aircraft will remove space for vehicles and that the air wing would be quite small.
I believe the Spanish plan was to build a proper Carrier to replace the Principe de Asturias and only operate Harriers/F-35Bs of the JC1 when the Carrier was in refit, unfortunately Spain has never been able to afford, either the carrier or the F-35Bs.
 

Wombat000

Well-Known Member
The enabler effect of cycling a small air group of (I dunno) 6 or 8 as a long range reloadable defence layer and anti-AWAC would probably have a huge effect in extending our already limited escorting VLS numbers, possibly the fleet being targeted to begin with?

for less than the cost of a crewed ‘corvette’, huge value bang for buck, surely?
talk of options already existing for an extra squadron of F35s. - perhaps this might be why? (Speculating).

before the LHDs can even be filled with amphib group, the issue of the task group air cover needs to be addressed.
it either comes organically or supplied by the US, and they might be taking their own peer conflict priority first!
Army should be mindful of this, and RAAF will need to be directly involved.

- providence has already gifted us the ships, and perhaps a cheap(er) conversion solution??
 
Last edited:

swerve

Super Moderator
Good day

My understanding is that the Australian LHD’s are identical to JC1 from the flight deck down. So bunkers and weapons stowage would be the same. Additional systems may be required for the control of fixed wing assets and the deck may need improved coatings (guessing on this).

The issue is that any additional aircraft will remove space for vehicles and that the air wing would be quite small.
IIRC the Spanish planned to use plug-in modules, perhaps in containers, to hold some of what was needed for supporting significant fixed-wing flight ops. That'd require fixing points, electrical connections & so on (probably trivial to omit most if not all of them from the Aussie ships), & of course, would take space that could otherwise be used for vehicles, etc. I think they'd only be used when PdA or its replacement were in refit or repair, when JC1 would be the main aviation ship. The plan was that PdA or replacement would be the fixed-wing carrier most of the time, & then two out of the three amphibs (JC1 & the two LPDs) would be operational or close to it. When the carrier wasn't available JC1 would be temporarily fitted for extended fixed-wing operations (a very short spell in port having modules wheeled in & fixed in place & IIRC the dock entrance locked shut) & would operate alongside the LPDs.

She wasn't considered to be as capable as the carrier for carrier ops: she was an auxiliary carrier at best, & at the temporary cost of a very large part of her amphibious capability. That doesn't seem easily applicable to the RAN unless it got some more amphibious shipping.

I read all this a long time ago, so please forgive me for any errors & omissions.
 

Wombat000

Well-Known Member
I’m remembering HMAS Melbourne freq replenishing at sea with a OR ship.
already in amphib mode, the LHDs would be deployed with its cousin Supply or Stalwart.

RAS would be no different.
LHDs are bigger & a potential air wing smaller - extending endurance exponentially.

the task group has to already account for its surface escort package today. It’s a today issue.
the extended range air defence layer would make that surface escort package liability easier.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
IIRC the Spanish planned to use plug-in modules, perhaps in containers, to hold some of what was needed for supporting significant fixed-wing flight ops. That'd require fixing points, electrical connections & so on (probably trivial to omit most if not all of them from the Aussie ships), & of course, would take space that could otherwise be used for vehicles, etc. I think they'd only be used when PdA or its replacement were in refit or repair, when JC1 would be the main aviation ship. The plan was that PdA or replacement would be the fixed-wing carrier most of the time, & then two out of the three amphibs (JC1 & the two LPDs) would be operational or close to it. When the carrier wasn't available JC1 would be temporarily fitted for extended fixed-wing operations (a very short spell in port having modules wheeled in & fixed in place & IIRC the dock entrance locked shut) & would operate alongside the LPDs.

She wasn't considered to be as capable as the carrier for carrier ops: she was an auxiliary carrier at best, & at the temporary cost of a very large part of her amphibious capability. That doesn't seem easily applicable to the RAN unless it got some more amphibious shipping.

I read all this a long time ago, so please forgive me for any errors & omissions.
Also how much useful life does the Spanish Harrier fleet have left?
 

Wazza

New Member
For me, tier 1 says survivable and still in the fight after multiple hits this means size and redundancy, tier 2 ships, one hit and your out. I’m not against the inclusion of FF’s or FFL’s but they shouldn’t be taking the fight to the enemy. They should be escorting and patrolling. DDG’s & FFG’s will be needed in quantities to slug it out with peer enemies and must be able to inflict and take damage longer than the enemy. On the DSR as whole If the unclassified version says anything it says they think we’re stupid or in fact they are. It was a 120 odd pages of fluff disguising defence cuts that are being spread through two reviews, not one new capability, re-rolling the army to a insurgent force with a negligible close combat capability and a status quo for the Air Force.
 

knightrider4

Active Member
For me, tier 1 says survivable and still in the fight after multiple hits this means size and redundancy, tier 2 ships, one hit and your out. I’m not against the inclusion of FF’s or FFL’s but they shouldn’t be taking the fight to the enemy. They should be escorting and patrolling. DDG’s & FFG’s will be needed in quantities to slug it out with peer enemies and must be able to inflict and take damage longer than the enemy. On the DSR as whole If the unclassified version says anything it says they think we’re stupid or in fact they are. It was a 120 odd pages of fluff disguising defence cuts that are being spread through two reviews, not one new capability, re-rolling the army to a insurgent force with a negligible close combat capability and a status quo for the Air Force.
I agree Wazza its a concern when you have a defence minister and deputy PM who either A) Blatantly lies when he states the navies of the world are moving to larger numbers of smaller warships or B) is so clueless about his portfolio that he actually believes that.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
For me, tier 1 says survivable and still in the fight after multiple hits this means size and redundancy, tier 2 ships, one hit and your out. I’m not against the inclusion of FF’s or FFL’s but they shouldn’t be taking the fight to the enemy. They should be escorting and patrolling. DDG’s & FFG’s will be needed in quantities to slug it out with peer enemies and must be able to inflict and take damage longer than the enemy. On the DSR as whole If the unclassified version says anything it says they think we’re stupid or in fact they are. It was a 120 odd pages of fluff disguising defence cuts that are being spread through two reviews, not one new capability, re-rolling the army to a insurgent force with a negligible close combat capability and a status quo for the Air Force.
Reality check.

If the primary threat is missile and air strikes from forward island bases and naval strike groups, supported by infiltrating special forces and saboteurs, then you need the capability to respond to and defend against those threats.

I like tanks, I love heavy armour, when I was young and stupid I honestly thought the Army should be remodelled with each of the three brigades converted to US style, tank heavy Armoured Cavalry Regiments. The remaining infantry would be concentrated into a single three battalion light, airmobile brigades plus supporting elements. Like I said, I was young and stupid.

When you tailor your defence forces to what you think is sexy, or even what someone else used to smash their enemy somewhere else, you are not necessarily getting the capability you need where you are.

Same applies to a force structure designed for a specific threat at a specific time. In 1942 the Australian army divisions pivoted from becoming a combined arms force to what was called "jungle infantry". This entered the national psyche for decades afterwards, elite, light infantry fighting in jungles against Japanese, then various Communist threats, not a tank in sight.

This was totally wrong. The "jungle infantry" were actually more accurately quickly reroled conventional infantry, stripped of much if their support equipment to fight in mountains. Eventually they received the "mountanised" support equipment they needed, while much of the force reverted to convention infantry, supported by similar, or greater scales of armour, artillery and engineers as earlier in the war, to fight the Japanese other than in the mountains. Much of this conventional capability being deployed amphibiously.

Somewhere along the line, armour, artillery, close air support, naval gunfire support, resupply from air and sea, were forgotten and it became the legend of "jungle" light infantry defeating the Japanese threat.

Korea, we needed tanks, didn't have them, Vietnam we had and used armour to great effect.

Every single conflict the RAN and RAAF have been there doing their jobs with what they have. Sometimes it's been the right gear, sometimes it been the ideal gear, sometimes they have had to make do, but they have always been there.

Against major powers there is no getting past the fact that air and sea power is the decider in our region. These days army can contribute to both, and due to the DSR and previous initiative by previous governments, they will.
 

Morgo

Well-Known Member
I agree Wazza its a concern when you have a defence minister and deputy PM who either A) Blatantly lies when he states the navies of the world are moving to larger numbers of smaller warships or B) is so clueless about his portfolio that he actually believes that.
As I said in another post I don’t get this narrative - what he said is 100% true, although it’s frame dependent.

If you interpret “smaller” as something in the ANZAC / Type 31 / Constellation weight class compared to ”larger” Hunter / Hobart / Type 45 / Arleigh Burke / Zumwalt / Tico, then the statement makes sense and is factually accurate.

If you say “smaller” is corvettes / OPVs, then that’s probably less so.

I would err on the side of assuming the Deputy PM is not a complete idiot and suggest there’s a good chance of us getting a number of something in the Type 31 / Constellation mould out of this surface force review.
 

Julian 82

Active Member
As I said in another post I don’t get this narrative - what he said is 100% true, although it’s frame dependent.

If you interpret “smaller” as something in the ANZAC / Type 31 / Constellation weight class compared to ”larger” Hunter / Hobart / Type 45 / Arleigh Burke / Zumwalt / Tico, then the statement makes sense and is factually accurate.

If you say “smaller” is corvettes / OPVs, then that’s probably less so.

I would err on the side of assuming the Deputy PM is not a complete idiot and suggest there’s a good chance of us getting a number of something in the Type 31 / Constellation mould out of this surface force review.
A Constellation class frigate is not a light frigate. It is almost as large in terms of displacement as a Type 26 frigate. A type 31 frigate is also a large frigate (albeit cheaper in terms of propulsion plant and lacking the quietening features of the Type 26).

I think he is talking about something in the Meko A100/200, K130 bracket which is a considerable step down from the Hunter class and having significantly less survivability and utility.

If these are ordered in place of some of the OPVs then sure. But if this class is at the expense of Hunter class FFGs, it is a very poor outcome.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I agree Wazza its a concern when you have a defence minister and deputy PM who either A) Blatantly lies when he states the navies of the world are moving to larger numbers of smaller warships or B) is so clueless about his portfolio that he actually believes that.
The Hunters are big ships, pretty much every frigate being built everywhere else, is literally smaller and cheaper, or is a destroyer.

Even the RN and RCN Type 26s are smaller and less capable than ours will be.

Because successive Australian government's failed to procure sufficient (or any for that matter) large high end ships, what should have been ASW or GP frigates, had to grow into defacto DDGs.

This means geography that requires about twenty major surface combatants for adequate presence, has had to be patrolled and defended by a dozen or less majors, supplemented by fleets of patrol boats.

Arguably Australia has needed a dozen or so sloops or light frigates since the 1960s, to supplement the dozen or so major combatants that have formed the core of the fleet.

Every attempt to do this has seen these second tier major combatants either cancelled or grown into compromised replacements for the first tier ships.

What there needs to be IMO, and I hope the up coming review will do this, is clearly delineate between the first and second tier. That is there will be several large, capable high end ships, supported by clearly smaller, but still survivable mid level ships. Also important, the minor combatants supporting the high and mid level ships, need actual combat power.
 

Going Boeing

Well-Known Member
For those with access to AFR, this article gives a bit more detail about possible plans to reduce the Hunter class to 6 vessels but the remaining 3 hulls would be produced in the form of DDG’s carrying up to 128 missiles.

The article also indicates that the Corvettes would be at the expense of remaining Arafuras (6 only), not at the expense of Hunters.

Billions to fast-track local missile production in defence shake-up
 
Last edited:

Takao

The Bunker Group
Good day

My understanding is that the Australian LHD’s are identical to JC1 from the flight deck down. So bunkers and weapons stowage would be the same. Additional systems may be required for the control of fixed wing assets and the deck may need improved coatings (guessing on this).

The issue is that any additional aircraft will remove space for vehicles and that the air wing would be quite small.
Nope. Significant reconstruction that boosted the embarked formation's ammunition and fuel storage at the expense of the aviation equivalents. Helo's don't need as much, so it is fine. The open source maths is on here somewhere, but there is about 8 - 10 missions F-35 missions on our LHDs.

The Spanish designed Juan Carlos to operate F-35B, but IIRC the RAN left out the facilities for it when buying the LHDs. I don't know how much work & money it'd take to put 'em back.
Low 100s of million
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Nope. Significant reconstruction that boosted the embarked formation's ammunition and fuel storage at the expense of the aviation equivalents. Helo's don't need as much, so it is fine. The open source maths is on here somewhere, but there is about 8 - 10 missions F-35 missions on our LHDs.



Low 100s of million
Thanks for that Takao, may I add:

A purpose designed and built light carrier would be both cheaper and more capable as a carrier than any repurposed large ship could possibly be.

With the LHDs the competing requirements mean they will always carry a smaller number of aircraft, generating fewer sorties than a carrier of the same, or even considerably smaller size could. Even carrying a small number of F-35B (assuming the required reconfiguration work was done), would seriously impact their ability to operate as effective amphibious ships.

The USNs LHDs and LHAs are significantly larger and more expensive ships, i.e. approximately 40% larger. They are more akin to the RN Queen Elizabeth Class carriers in size but have nowhere near the aviation capability of these purpose designed carriers.

A purpose designed carrier can be employed as a highly effective LPH. This leads me to wonder if going forward, especially if the RAN and Army get their littoral amphibious fleet, whether the large amphibs could be eventually replaced by a larger number of smaller light carriers used as required as ASW helo carriers, LPH, UCAV mother ships, etc.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
For those with access to AFR, this article gives a bit more detail about possible plans to reduce the Hunter class to 6 vessels but the remaining 3 hulls would be produced in the form of DDG’s carrying up to 128 missiles.

The article also indicates that the Corvettes would be at the expense of remaining Arafuras (6 only), not at the expense of Hunters.

Billions to fast-track local missile production in defence shake-up
Fingers crossed but the admiral is an ex submariner .

There is a clear argument that following from the Hunters a larger more capable ship could be justified as a replacement for the Hobarts.

A possibility that hasn't been discussed is cancelling the planned upgrades to the Hobart's helping avoid a capability gap. Some of the improved capability could be incorporated into the Hunters, then the Hobart's replaced early by a proper destroyer.

In the numbers game what would be interesting is moving to a force structure of five DDG, five Hunters, five GP frigates. Ten to a dozen corvettes would be a plus over that.
 

Takao

The Bunker Group
I'd suggest Tier 1 / Tier 2 discussion will have a longer term detrimental impact on the RAN than anything short of killing DDG/FFG numbers. Arguably it is what got us into this mess in the first place. Someone here (and I have to run sorry, so can't find them - but @Volkodav? @ADMk2?) has put out a logic chain (that I agree with) that shows how the ANZACs were the Tier 2 combatants to the CFA/OHP fleet that, in order to save money, we simply treated as 'generic major platform' when it cam time to replace the DDGs. Meaning they now form the bulk of our fleet, and despite upgrades the what could have been paths are better.

I also think that while some here argue that corvette = Armidale replacement/addition, the DSR is not phrased that way. It could be read that way, but it also could be read that we will sacrifice major platforms for them. I wear many hats, under every single one that's almost criminal. We don't have enough FFG/DDG now, we don't have enough come 2040. And yes, I have actually put forward plans (including cutting my own budgets) to boost FFG/DDG numbers.

The reality is that Australia is a maritime nation, who's maritime AO reaches from the Suez to Hawaii, from Antarctica to Japan. There are huge parts of that where small ships cannot go because of their small bunkerage. The weather adds even more negatives. I know there are actual sailors on here (and noting I have spent more nights on board HMAS Brisbane II than an amphib speaks to my Army-ness) but having worked closely with a minehunter LCDR for two years, their stories of steaming around that AO borders on horrifying. Finally, I know there are people who have an unnatural fascination with VLS numbers, but every FFG/DDG has more magazine depth than a small ship. So....the point is?

Then there is the question as to why ships are the size they are. Small ships are a peacetime thing; as war starts ships get bigger and heavier. Compare the D-Class DDs to Battle-class. Or USS New Orleans to USS Des Moines. Why? Because effect-v-counter-effect drives that to be the case. With that in mind, why would you start small? During peacetime, when we have time and can build properly, build your ships as big as possible for their mission and budget. Include headroom so you can add more systems when war breaks out. But, you have more chance of upgrading HMAS Hunter after war breaks out than a hypothetical HMAS Maryborough corvette. That one is just going to suck.

Finally, I see DDG/FFG like the CL/CA of 1936. While big and expensive, they were absolutely needed. Can you imagine a DD taking the damage of HMAS Australia? Or fighting some of the actions of HMAS Sydney? The redundancy, the range, the overall capability - all were essential to our fleet's operations. If you want, corvettes are the emergency program of O- to Ca-class destroyers (and unlike pre-war corvettes, they'd have wartime experience built into them - like those DDs did). Built rapidly and quickly, but meld with the proven, cornerstone capability of the DDG/FFG.

TL/DR: Tier 1/2 is okish for short term, detrimental for long term. DSR isn't clear. Corvettes are not feasible replacements for DDG/FFG. We need more of the latter.
 
Last edited:
Top