Royal Australian Naval Force Enhancements

Supe

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Re: Royal Australian Navy force enhancements

cherry said:
I happened to be watching "Dateline" on SBS last night which was a story on Iraq and some of the Coalition activities over there. The media crew were on board HMAS Newcastle and actually showed them firing one of the mini-typhoons during a training drill. I was wondering, do these systems reduce the number of personnel required to operate the 0.50 cal weapons, does one person control all four now, or are four personnel still required to operate the controls? Also, was the 0.50 cal chosen because a 25mm would be too big?
A 25mm gun would make for a great boomstick but looking at the available space, I'm not sure a 25mm gun could be fitted without modifying the structure. It already looks a bit cramped up there. I've seen some interesting weapon choices for the sort of work they're used for. One RN ship has mounted a minigun system, which doesn't appear to be intrusive. I suppose there's something to be said for rate of fire. :D

Here's the hires pic of the mini-typhoon mount.
 
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Aussie Digger

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Re: Royal Australian Navy force enhancements

Supe said:
A 25mm gun would make for a great boomstick but looking at the available space, I'm not sure a 25mm gun could be fitted without modifying the structure. It already looks a bit cramped up there. I've seen some interesting weapon choices for the sort of work they're used for. One RN ship has mounted a minigun system, which doesn't appear to be intrusive. I suppose there's something to be said for rate of fire. :D

Here's the hires pic of the mini-typhoon mount.
There's also something to be said for "weight of fire" too. The 12.7mm round has much greater range and hitting power than the 7.62 (or possibly even 5.56mm) round used in those Mini-guns. Which might become important if it's being used against "explosive laden" small attack craft. The object there obviously would be to destroy said craft as far as possible away from your warship...

The 0.50cal HMG's used by the ADF these days (in front line roles at least) are "quick change barrel" (QCB) models that have a much higher rate of fire than the traditional M2 versions, not to mention the fact that the 12.7mm bullet outranges 7.62mm by about 1.5k's, and outranges the 5.56mm round by about 2 kays...

The QCB's are up to somewhere around 650rpm IIRC, which is nowhere near the mini-guns of course, but pretty damn good for such a large calibre machine gun...

25mm chain guns would be better of course, but I think they'd probably take up a bit to much room on the frigates to be viable. The AWD's and Amphibious ships on the other hand...
 

cherry

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Re: Royal Australian Navy force enhancements

Possibly, but it seems the Mini-Typhoon was chosen to fil an urgent operational requirement. No announcements have been made about it, no formal projects announced and it wasn't even listed in the DMO's minor projects section, as I mentioned earlier.
If it was the case of an urgent operational requirement then why is HMAS Parramatta being fitted out with the mini-typhoons too? Does this mean that all ANZAC frigates and OHP frigates will be or are being fitted out too?:confused:
 

Supe

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Re: Royal Australian Navy force enhancements

Aussie Digger said:
There's also something to be said for "weight of fire" too.
No argument from me. I did say it was an interesting choice. There's alot to be said for 'reach and and touch' capability of a .50cal. Seeing one of those miniguns mounted on an RN ship stuck in my mind as rather odd. I'd never thought that would be something the Brits would use. It's a rather 'exotic' weapon.

AD: Do you know when the M2 was introduced into ADF service? I noted with interest, that when the Australian gov bought the Abram's, they also got a side order of M2's to go with it. I used to think the heaviest calibre weapon (apart from Artillery/Gustav's etc of course) at the Army's disposal was the Minimi.. till I saw a pic of SASR vehicle in Afghanistan mounting a .50cal on one of the Perrentie's.
 
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Aussie Digger

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Re: Royal Australian Navy force enhancements

cherry said:
If it was the case of an urgent operational requirement then why is HMAS Parramatta being fitted out with the mini-typhoons too? Does this mean that all ANZAC frigates and OHP frigates will be or are being fitted out too?:confused:
Probably, or else a particular number of systems have been acquired only and are rotated amongst the vessels as operational circumstances dictate, as is done with the Phalanx CIWS on the FFG's and Kanimbla and Manoora LPA's.... :confused:

Maybe Gf, can provide some info on this? From the Navy News article I posted it seems as if all the ANZAC's at least will get them and HMAS Newcastle (FFG) at least has been fitted with them. I wonder if the Armidale's will end up getting them too?
 
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Aussie Digger

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Re: Royal Australian Navy force enhancements

Supe said:
No argument from me. I did say it was an interesting choice. There's alot to be said for 'reach and and touch' capability of a .50cal. Seeing one of those miniguns mounted on an RN ship stuck in my mind as rather odd. I'd never thought that would be something the Brits would use. It's a rather 'exotic' weapon.

AD: Do you know when the M2 was introduced into ADF service? I noted with interest, that when the Australian gov bought the Abram's, they also got a side order of M2's to go with it. I used to think the heaviest calibre weapon (apart from Artillery/Gustav's etc of course) at the Army's disposal was the Minimi.. till I saw a pic of SASR vehicle in Afghanistan mounting a .50cal on one of the Perrentie's.
The ADF has had M2 HMG's for "donkey's years". M113's were fitted with them on "flex mounts" with the old style gun shields in Vietnam... The QCB variants have been in-service since about 1997/98, when they were acquired for the M113AS2 upgrade planned at that time.

The ADF purchased around 450 QCB's at this time with guns going to the RAN, Specwarries, RAAF ADGIES and Army "line units". Possibly more have acquired since as every version you see today seems to be the QCB variant.

The Army also operates 7.62mm MAG-58 GPMG's as well which are "heavier" than Minimi's. They have been taken out of the infantry sections and replaced by Minimi's but are still used by DFSW platoons, Cav units etc. There is a push within RAINF to get the MAG-58 back into every section due to the longer range and heavier firepower it provides over the Minimi, despite it's weight and size...

The Army also has a number of Mk 19 40mm AGL's now too. These are primarily used within Special Operations Command, but have also been deployed by 2 Cav Regt to Iraq now within the Al Muthana task group. I'd expect that futher AGL's will be acquired by the ADF in coming years, as greater fire support has been desperately needed within Army for years...
 

AMTP10E

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Re: Royal Australian Navy force enhancements

Eventually all the FFG's/ANZAC's/LPA's will have the 25mm Typhoon. I can't remember if the AO/AOR/LSH will be fitted or just get them as needed.
 

cherry

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Re: Royal Australian Navy force enhancements

Eventually all the FFG's/ANZAC's/LPA's will have the 25mm Typhoon. I can't remember if the AO/AOR/LSH will be fitted or just get them as needed.
Where does it say this?
 
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Aussie Digger

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Re: Royal Australian Navy force enhancements

The latest photo's from www.defence.gov.au from Exercise kakadu show photo's of HMAS Adelaide and this ship is clearly not fitted with Mini-Typhoon systems yet...
 

AMTP10E

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Re: Royal Australian Navy force enhancements

Aussie Digger said:
The latest photo's from www.defence.gov.au from Exercise kakadu show photo's of HMAS Adelaide and this ship is clearly not fitted with Mini-Typhoon systems yet...
Considering that Adelaide and Canberra are paying off shortly I wouldn't expect that they would be fitted for it.
 

AMTP10E

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Re: Royal Australian Navy force enhancements

cherry said:
Where does it say this?
I think CN told a Senate hearing either earlier this year or late last year. Plus this stuff is my job.
 

alexsa

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Re: Royal Australian Navy force enhancements

The mini-typhoon on Newcastle appears to be mounted in the way of the EW suite. Has the EW system been removed to make way for the guns or relocated?
 
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Aussie Digger

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Re: Royal Australian Navy force enhancements

I don't recall who it was, but someone earlier mentioned the relative lack of firepower inherent in the Seahawk and Seasprites being armed with a flex mounted 7.62mm machine gun only (besides their major weapon systems). Well whoever it was can relax, the RAN now has Sea project 1876, which is listed in the DMO's minor projects to acquire a heavy machine gun system and mountings for it's helo's.

This project can be found on the DMO's website under the minor project listings.

I'd say personaly the Fabrique National M3M 0.50 cal HMG would have to be a very good chance of winning this contract. It's already in-service with the US Navy and on HH-60 helo's.

Hopefully this weapon or something similar will replace the MAG-58's on ALL ADF helo's...

Details and pics of this weapon can be found here:

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_50cal-M3M_MG.htm
 

alexsa

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Re: Royal Australian Navy force enhancements

Some interesting conceptual drawings of the proposed mast house on the ANZAC frigates for the ASMD project are available on the Australain marine technologies web site at:

http://www.ausmarinetech.com.au/index.php?subaction=showfull&id=1099885792&archive=&start_from=&ucat=1&page=article

The site also show the trial rig on HMAS Arunta. Given the top wieight these mast structures wouel add it may explain why the harpoons are fitted on the deck in front of the bridge as opposed to aft of the fore mast as orignally designed.


http://www.ausmarinetech.com.au/img/news/Option-7-B5-Iso.jpg

http://www.ausmarinetech.com.au/img/news/Option-4-B5-Is.jpg
 

cherry

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Re: Royal Australian Navy force enhancements

ANTI-SHIP MISSILE CAPABILITY FOR ANZAC SHIPS

Canberra-based CEA Technologies has been selected to deliver a cutting edge high technology solution to protect the Navy's ANZAC Class frigates from the increasing threat of anti-ship cruise missiles.
Defence Minister Robert Hill said the Federal Government has approved the second phase of a project to provide the world class anti-ship missiles capability.
CEA Technologies has been chosen to provide a lightweight Active Phased Array Radar system designed and developed at its Fyshwick facility in Canberra.
"The CEA phased array radar system offers the Navy a significant capability boost," Senator Hill said.
"CEA has developed a product that has a genuine competitive advantage in the important criteria of weight, cost, capability and overall value for money.
"These radars have a clear export potential and the market for this technology is estimated in the billions of dollars."
"This new phase of the project is estimated to create up to 130 jobs during acquisition and installation, and 25 jobs to support the capability through the life of the ANZAC Class frigates with around $260 million to be spent in Australia."
The major components of the CEA system are a search and track radar (CEA-FAR) and a phased array missile illuminator (CEA-MOUNT).
In addition to providing self protection, the ANZAC's Anti-Ship Missile Defence system will also be able to protect closely escorted assets such as Amphibious ships, Auxiliary support vessels and merchant vessels.
The Anti-Ship Missile Defence system integrates the radars into the eight ANZAC Class frigates through ANZAC Alliance Team members Tenix Defence Pty Ltd and SAAB Systems Pty Ltd.
Both CEA and the Howard Government have committed significant resources towards reducing the risks inherit in such a high end technology project including conducting sea trials last year.
The selection of CEA further supports the objectives of the Defence Electronic Systems Sector Strategic Plan which includes the development of niche capabilities in RADAR as being of strategic importance to Australia.
The second phase of the project brings the total investment in the ANZACs Anti Ship Missile Defence system to over $700 million. The ANZAC Alliance Team has already commenced work to upgrade the ships' command and control system and install an infra-red search and track system which will provide improved detection of low level aircraft and anti-ship missiles when close to land.
Does this mean that there won't be an additional missile system installed on the ANZACs such as the RAM or Mistral/Tetral, or is there yet another phase of this project to go?
 
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Aussie Digger

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Re: Royal Australian Navy force enhancements

cherry said:
Does this mean that there won't be an additional missile system installed on the ANZACs such as the RAM or Mistral/Tetral, or is there yet another phase of this project to go?
Who knows? DMO still lists the "possible installation of two very short range air defence weapon systems to provide 360 degree close-in protection" on their website.

I personally think an additional short range air defence system such as SEARAM etc is needed to help build a "layered" air defence for the ANZAC frigates which seem a bit "light on" for air defence with only ESSM to provide a credible air defence capability...

It may be though that with this new radar, ESSM is considered sufficient by the boffins. Funny that it's not on any other warship in the world though...
 

gf0012-aust

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Re: Royal Australian Navy force enhancements

Aussie Digger said:
Who knows? DMO still lists the "possible installation of two very short range air defence weapon systems to provide 360 degree close-in protection" on their website.

I personally think an additional short range air defence system such as SEARAM etc is needed to help build a "layered" air defence for the ANZAC frigates which seem a bit "light on" for air defence with only ESSM to provide a credible air defence capability...

It may be though that with this new radar, ESSM is considered sufficient by the boffins. Funny that it's not on any other warship in the world though...
It'll be interesting to see what happens with the yanks re this. They've had a test unit on operational duty just outside of washington for a year or so now. As for SHORAD - I thought Bolide was up for install??
 

rickusn

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Re: Royal Australian Navy force enhancements

ESSM isnt ready yet.

Could be it never will live up to the hype.

All A. Burke class ships that werent fitted with Phalanx are being retrofitted with it.

And all new construction ships are having it installed as built.

RAM/Sea Ram doesnt seem to be a consenus answer either.
 

gf0012-aust

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Re: Royal Australian Navy force enhancements

rickusn said:
ESSM isnt ready yet.

Could be it never will live up to the hype.

All A. Burke class ships that werent fitted with Phalanx are being retrofitted with it.

And all new construction ships are having it installed as built.

RAM/Sea Ram doesnt seem to be a consenus answer either.
is that because it hasn't met ecpectations or that the expectations are "blue sky"?
 

tatra

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Re: Royal Australian Navy force enhancements

rickusn said:
ESSM isnt ready yet.

Could be it never will live up to the hype.

All A. Burke class ships that werent fitted with Phalanx are being retrofitted with it.

And all new construction ships are having it installed as built.

RAM/Sea Ram doesnt seem to be a consenus answer either.
In what way is ESSM "not ready". It's been launched from Dutch LCF... see

http://www.marineschepen.nl/nieuws/images/176247XX-05kl.jpg
http://www.marineschepen.nl/nieuws/images/f802_essm3kl.jpg
 
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