Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates

MickB

Well-Known Member
A question for those more experanced in defence matters.
Most of the talk of additional air combat power revolves around peer on peer platforms.
Would not a push into S E Asia by China for example, include state sponcered incergency movements.
Would a platform to combat this such as the AT6 or similar be needed in these situations or is this too niche and not in line with current plans.
A joint capability with N Z could be the the first steps in restarting the ACF.
 

Takao

The Bunker Group
Well without air superiority all other elements of the ADF lose any freedom of action.
No - we lose some. Depending on circumstances.

a - peacetime (ie, now). Air superiority isn't an issue. The greatest workers will be the transports, than maritime patrol, trainers, fast jets

b - tension below war. Air superiority isn't an issue. The ADF isn't big enough to deter (sorry work) so the 72 or 102 or 150 JSF + 30 SH isn't stopping any unfriendly nation. The most important fleet are, depending on the likely threat, the transports or MPA.

c - war of choice a'la MEAO. Air superiority isn't an issue. The idea of using SH to bomb targets in the MEAO was dumb, but it was all we had. Putting F-35s there to do it is even dumber. Buying another Sqn to do it is even dumber than that. The busiest workers will be the transports and the E-7s.

d - war. Air superiority may be an issue. The lack of a carrier means the RAN has had to plan for that for decades, and while it won't chose to fight under a red sky, it can fight its way out. The Army has expected it, although I note we've not fought under a RAAF provided air cover since 1945. Our AD is woeful, but we've identified the shortfall and are rectifying it through LAND 19-7b and AIR6500. Our freedom of action may be curtailed or abbreviated - but we still have some.

We've never fought (d) alone. We'll almost always have the RAF and/or USAF who (up until last week) would shoulder most of the air superiority burden. If anything, we use our MPA and transports more. Ironically, for all the pointy grey fetish held by most senior RAAFies, it's the air transport that is the actual unique capability that Air Force brings that is unmatched. Note that for all the air power ideas about air power winning wars, it's only achieved strategic success alone once. And that was transports, not fighters or bombers.

Perhaps the army has forgotten what it is like to fight a war without air superiority. Ask the Iraqis how that turned out for them. Transport aircraft would similarly be sitting ducks without air cover.
Yep - we have. Hence why the SAMs are new capabilities, not replacements. And our TTPs are....lacking. Ironically its traditional and UAV air threats we are facing now; and the latter are (a) more scary and (b) unable to be effected by the RAAF. I think there's also a nasty other side of the coin - I'm not sure the RAAF can provide air superiority alone. We haven't used fighters since 1950 and we've never had our AWACS/fighter combo put under pressure.

I could also ask the Vietnamese how they went under an unfriendly sky. They did win....

In our region, manned air power is the most flexible kind of force projection as compared to other elements in the ADF. It can travel long distances, it is fast and it is repeatable in terms of delivering weapon effects on targets.
To do what? It takes longer to move a F-35 Sqn from east to west than a DDG or an Army unit, especially if planning for an extended duration. Air Force logistics is really, really weak and I'd suggest either your training or your operation breaks within days. Repeatable weapon effects come from artillery - our long-range rockets will be able to put a greater mass of HE on a target over 24 hr than a F-35 Sqn can. And in all weather. Air power is awesome, but it's not as flexible as you claim beyond our shores, not fast in large amounts and isn't persistent.

Hypersonic weapons will no doubt be expensive and they are single use. Not the most economic away of taking out targets (as compared to an F-35A that can carry 8 SDBs per sortie).
I'd be surprised if we use F-35 delivered SDBs over any threat with an average to good IADS. Stealth, especially F-35, isn't magic and stand-off is needed. They'll be fine for (c) above (although again, using F-35s in the MEAO is dumb), but against a Chinese island - nope. Stand-off range will get more and more important, and noting that Army will have missiles that are greater than a F-35s unrefuelled range, we get back to what is the effect we want.

think ADmk2 makes a valid point that a continental sized country with only four fast squadrons (a hawk 127 LIFT is not a combat aircraft in any sense of the word) is fairly inadequate, particularly with the threat horizon we face.
Sure. But neither is 3x DDGs and 9x FFGs. Or 3 Bdes. Or 1x Sqn of C-17 / C-130. If we want to 'do something' we should be looking at 2x CV's with ~15 - 20 escorts for on CVBG and another 15 - 20 escorts for other duties; 3x Mech Divisions with appropriate Corps troops and 6 - 8x F-35 Sqn with 2 - 3x E-7 Sqn and another 5 - 8x C-17 Sqn.

We can't do that. so we make the best from the $$ we have. Which is good core with a mobilisation plan. Off the cuff, we'd do better putting 30x JSF $$ into a industry / mobilisation plan that let us expand the RAAF rapidly when needed. That would be more useful than another handful of aircraft.

various said:
Why doesn't the RAAF buy excess A330s for conversion
We looked at this and tried very hard to fit additional MRTT into the budget. P-8s and E-7s can't be converted; but obviously the KC-30s can. We ran into the issue of having aircraft available, but the bill simply couldn't fit into the years there was money available. Converting them isn't cheap... I'd be surprised if COVID has made that easier, the various production lines are pretty full and COVID would have made this worse as they catch up.
 

Julian 82

Active Member
An F-35 armed with LRASM, JASSM-ER and AARGM missiles sounds like a pretty good deterrent to me. Add the block 4 600 gallon fuel tanks and this gives far more strike range than the army could muster.

The Israeli Air Force F-35A don't seem to have any issues with Syria's advanced IADS. They seem to be operating over Syrian airspace and dismantling its IADS with impunity.

The GBU-59 storm breaker SDB has stand off range. Over 100 km in open source material. Throw in some AARGM-ER missiles and that Chinese IADS is toast.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
An F-35 armed with LRASM, JASSM-ER and AARGM missiles sounds like a pretty good deterrent to me. Add the block 4 600 gallon fuel tanks and this gives far more strike range than the army could muster.
Operating from which 3000m airbase? Those Army launchers are mobile. 3000m airbases aren’t...

The Israeli Air Force F-35A don't seem to have any issues with Syria's advanced IADS. They seem to be operating over Syrian airspace and dismantling its IADS with impunity.
Primarily using Delilah standoff weapons to achieve this relative impugnity... I note the Israeli F-15’s and F-16’s don’t have much issue operating over this supposed ”advanced” IADS either...

The GBU-59 storm breaker SDB has stand off range. Over 100 km in open source material. Throw in some AARGM-ER missiles and that Chinese IADS is toast.
Funny how the other side never gets a say in these things, it will be so easy and straightforward. If only real combat operations worked this way...

I do think, hence why I wrote it, that RAAF and indeed ADF as a whole needs to expand and I think Government needs to prioritise it, money isn’t the issue, the willingness to spend it as opposed to more politically attractive ‘issues’ is...
 

protoplasm

Active Member
When considering situations of fairly warm tensions (the phase before hot war) I can see the RAAF using lots of F-35 flight hours flying protection for E-7, P-8, G550 and C-17. It’d be interesting to think through how many F-35s would be available for strike taskings after all maintenance, asset protection and other CAP is taken care of. It’s not that we have 72 airframes, it’s how many airframes are ready to go for a strike tasking with everything else happening as well.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
When considering situations of fairly warm tensions (the phase before hot war) I can see the RAAF using lots of F-35 flight hours flying protection for E-7, P-8, G550 and C-17. It’d be interesting to think through how many F-35s would be available for strike taskings after all maintenance, asset protection and other CAP is taken care of. It’s not that we have 72 airframes, it’s how many airframes are ready to go for a strike tasking with everything else happening as well.
There are 24 Shornets as well, JSF doesn’t make up our entire fast jet force...

But yes, the RAAF has a lot of roles for it’s fast jets and relatively few squadrons with which to fulfill these taskings.

I also think fixating on a pure strike role for a 4th JSF squadron as others have mentioned is a bit misleading too. I imagine any such squadron were it to be raised, would be doing all the things the existing squadrons do, including long ranged / maritime strike roles, more or less?

Firing a tactical ballistic / cruise missile is only ever going to achieve one main objective - striking something. Okay sensors / data-links might give them recce / BDA capabilities and so on, but primarily it’s objective is striking a target. Launching a fighter aircraft obviously can have any number of objectives, including launching cruise missiles directly onto targets or an objective that isn’t even slightly kinetic, so I do tend to think there is a fair bit more flexibility with that option, than other forms of strike. I am simply not convinced it will always be (though no doubt it was) an and / or situation. I am increasingly of the belief we’ll require every bit of combat power we can obtain, in every domain...
 
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Boagrius

Well-Known Member
More of everything certainly wouldn't go astray, although there are certain areas that seem to warrant more TLC than others. Not to beat a dead horse, but I thought this was pertinent:


To my mind the LACM problem is already significant from the existing (massive if dated) H6 fleet. It only gets worse with a B2ski lugging a belly full of JASSM-XRskis...
 

Boagrius

Well-Known Member
As an addendum, CSBA have a good piece on base defence below:

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It essentially recommends a layered system of conventional SAM, DEW toting UAS patrols, SPH with HVP and ground based DEW. It would be easy to sink a lot of money into this, but anything would be better than the "nothing" we currently possess...
Just realised I stuffed up the link above. Take 2:
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
Sometimes on Defence Talk the conversation gets on a role with good respectful positive input, contributed by many, on subjects that elicit differing opinions.
The RAAF thread has been a great read recently.
Thanks to all of you who have contributed.
For those just looking on, please feel welcome to take up the baton of conversation in the healthy spirit of debate.

Defence is best done with words!


Regards S
 

Boagrius

Well-Known Member
I thought the following was relevant to the discussion above, especially with respect to Army vs RAAF long range strike.
WASHINGTON: Lockheed Martin’s new Precision Strike Missile hasn’t yet been test-fired at its maximum range, a classified figure the Army will only say is more than 500 kilometers (311 miles). But the service is already studying potential upgrades that could give PrSM what the Army calls “mid-range capability,” something they’ve previously defined as over 1,600 km (1,000 miles) – roughly three times as far.

Currently, the Army is buying the venerable Tomahawk and the supersonic SM-6 as stopgap Mid-Range Capability weapons, but it’s looking at other options for the long term, including DARPA-developed hypersonics and the upgraded PrSM.

The Army’s aspiration is to make PrSM able to fire at “mid-range,” said Brig. Gen. John Rafferty, Army Futures Command’s director of Long-Range Precision Fires, in an exclusive interview. While Rafferty didn’t define that term, the general developing Mid-Range Capability defined mid-range in an earlier interview as “around 1,800 kilometers” — about 1,100 miles.
A few thoughts on this:

- 1800km is utterly eye watering for a missile the size of PrSM. Time shall tell if it's possible.

- Granted, long range strike from Army may involve expensive, single use missiles but this is counter-balanced by the fact that you can launch hard-to-stop salvos of them repeatedly and with relative impunity. HIMARS and LRHW TELs are mobile and far more difficult to locate and interdict than fixed airbases - dispersed or otherwise.

- Army would still need ISR to cue said missiles accurately, which is where the RAAF comes back into the picture. Particularly relevant given that even space based sensors would be challenged surviving a peer level conflict. Your ISR platform of choice may very well prove to be the F35... (working alongside LW perhaps)

- I'd posit that the ideal solution lies in a balance between Army and RAAF-provided long range strike. Both bring something to the table that the other can't. Ditto for RAN, although I've left them out for the purposes of this particular discussion.

- It would be interesting to see how modelling of the 4th squadron actually played out. While it wouldn't allow us to reach any further, it would provide better resilience in the face of losses, and allow the RAAF to be in more places at once.

- More of everything sounds about right ;-)
 
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south

Well-Known Member
There's an interesting thread here that is also present, to their detriment, within (all) Service Headquarters. That is - the RAAF need / want more F-35.

Of course they do. It's the RAAF. Having tried to take an airframe from them in the past I'd rather take a lolly from a baby - it'll cry less. And taking a fighter jet as well! OMG - that's all there is!

It's not unexpected. But there's three things wrong with this thinking. First is the focus on fighters. We have 5 Sqn's of fast jets, 7 including Hawk's - that's 30-40% of the Air Force! For something that, while important, isn't the most critical capability within the Air Force. What fundamental change will the fourth Sqn of JSF add? Why does the RAAF need to be 33 - 44% fighter? What's more important are the enablers and the transport aircraft. Transport aircraft are literally the only thing that the RAAF can uniquely provide and have strategic effects. There are less Inf Bn in the ARA by % and much less armour. Focusing on fighters is making the RAAF lopsided and unable to effectively and efficiently contribute to all of the Government's needs. Furthermore, how many SQN are we planning on committing at once? It'll be 1x JSF and 1x Growler Sqn. And there's the second problem in focusing on fighters. Every F-35 mission needs Growler support. Everything needs Growler. If you have to buy another fighter Sqn, buy a second Sqn of Growlers.

Second thing wrong with this thinking is it's platform focused. Why does it have to be a 4th Sqn of JSF? What is the effect that the fourth Sqn is meant to bring? Is it provide a single-seat, single-engine, all-weather stealth multirole combat aircraft that is intended to perform both air superiority and strike missions? No. If it's about long-range strike, there are other options. There are land, underwater and maritime based missiles. There are electronic or cyber or SF options. There are air launched options. There's crewed and uncrewed options. The "pick a platform and then shape the project around it" needs to die - and for the most part has. We need to determine the true needs and effects and then look at options from there. And that is done in a Joint fashion, not a RAAF / fighter mafia fashion.

Finally, and the most critical, this idea that it has to be RAAF needs to die. The RAAF may want a 4th Sqn. Cool. But it's what the Joint Force needs, not what Services want. You know what would be awesome? 3x Tk Regt and 3x ACR with all the attrition and training stock and support fleets. Or another 6 escorts. Or a carrier. But these are at the expense of the Joint Force. It ties in with the point above (that perhaps the best answer is a Navy hypersonic platform), but its more. It's the question on what is more important, a 4th Sqn or more cybers. Or an extension to RAAF Edinburgh to fit more Army on. Or a 10th frigate. Or a beefed up TS network. Or more workforce for the RAAF. That was one of the things FSP did very well - apply a Joint Force focus on the problem. Something we have never done. But even assuming that another 30 F-35 is 100% the most important thing the RAAF needs, it may not be what the Joint Force needs. Especially when it doesn't add anything fundamental.

By all means - it's an Air Force thread and we are 'just' internet commentators. But as fun as fantasy fleets are, there are nuance's that seem to be often missed. And I'd be careful about underselling impact - you'll be amazed at what came from here into FSP and other areas for consideration.
You cant add training units to the combat orbat, unless you also start counting School of Infantry, School of Armour etc as combat units...

We have 4 Squadrons of Fast Jets (1, 3, 75, 77). 6 Squadron are an Electronic Attack Squadron (if they were USN they would be called VAQ, rather than VFA); with a fundamentally different mission role. Which I know you are aware of, as you address the importance of this later.

Yep, everyone is more survivable/effective with growler support. It was a true joint purchase, and would be equally effective helping Navy or Army deal with their problems. Having said that - as effective as EA18G is, and for the ADF size, we own a relatively large % of the global Growler fleet (about 7%). We certainly don't own anywhere near 5% of 5 Eyes fighters.

My take - as to what would trigger Australia having to get more jets; homeland defence. Australia is extremely fortunate that our geographical location does not (at present) require us to conduct QRA/homeland defence (think Japan/Taiwan)... The resources to do this are extensive...
 
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ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
You cant add training units to the combat orbat, unless you also start counting School of Infantry, School of Armour etc as combat units...

We have 4 Squadrons of Fast Jets (1, 3, 75, 77). 6 Squadron are an Electronic Attack Squadron (if they were USN they would be called VAQ, rather than VFA); with a fundamentally different mission role. Which I know you are aware of, as you address the importance of this later.

Yep, everyone is more survivable/effective with growler support. It was a true joint purchase, and would be equally effective helping Navy or Army deal with their problems. Having said that - as effective as EA18G is, and for the ADF size, we own a relatively large % of the global Growler fleet (about 7%). We certainly don't own anywhere near 5% of 5 Eyes fighters.

My take - as to what would trigger Australia having to get more jets; homeland defence. Australia is extremely fortunate that our geographical location does not (at present) require us to conduct QRA/homeland defence (think Japan/Taiwan)... The resources to do this are extensive...
Without getting into any specifics as we all know they can’t be discussed openly, does 11 aircraft in a “squadron” strike you as particularly sustainable over the longer term? I wonder if we have a Tiger situation again here? We want them, but we don’t understand (until we get them and start using them) how much we needed them and how much OF them, we actually need...

To me the AEA Squadron should be the same size as any other fast jet sqn in reality, but I acknowledge the overall priorities are more important...
 

buffy9

Well-Known Member
Without getting into any specifics as we all know they can’t be discussed openly, does 11 aircraft in a “squadron” strike you as particularly sustainable over the longer term? I wonder if we have a Tiger situation again here? We want them, but we don’t understand (until we get them and start using them) how much we needed them and how much OF them, we actually need...

To me the AEA Squadron should be the same size as any other fast jet sqn in reality, but I acknowledge the overall priorities are more important...
Perhaps in the mid-term a conversion would be a more economical solution? Without knowing whether it ended up unfeasible, twelve of the Shornets were to be capable of conversion to Growlers - before twelve new builds were ultimately bought.


Converting a portion of the 24 aircraft to Growlers (either rebuilding it to 12 or increasing it in size) could help balance out the fleet. This may not line up with RAAF plans for hypersonics however, depending how many platforms RAAF deems necessary for the desired effect.

Even converting four would see an increase in fleet size to 15 Growlers with 20 Shornets still left over for more traditional roles, including hypersonic strike. It may not be the ideal solution - but if it is still feasible it could act as a mid-term solution to any current unbalance?

Of course, doing anything with them before the JSF has entered reliable service (with good weapon integration) may not be ideal. By that stage anything could be on the table - noting Loyal Wingman and NGAD...
 
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Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Perhaps in the mid-term a conversion would be a more economical solution? Without knowing whether it ended up unfeasible, twelve of the Shornets were to be capable of conversion to Growlers - before twelve new builds were ultimately bought.


Converting a portion of the 24 aircraft to Growlers (either rebuilding it to 12 or increasing it in size) could help balance out the fleet. This may not line up with RAAF plans for hypersonics however, depending how many platforms RAAF deems necessary for the desired effect.

Even converting four would see an increase in fleet size to 15 Growlers with 20 Shornets still left over for more traditional roles, including hypersonic strike. It may not be the ideal solution - but if it is still feasible it could act as a mid-term solution to any current unbalance?

Of course, doing anything with them before the JSF has entered reliable service (with good weapon integration) may not be ideal. By that stage anything could be on the table - noting Loyal Wingman and NGAD...
The 2020 Defence update calls for an expanded EA Fleet to replace the EA-18G fleet with a project start date around 27-28
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The 2020 Defence update calls for an expanded EA Fleet to replace the EA-18G fleet with a project start date around 27-28
Forgive me if I don’t hold my breath, expecting a Growler replacement to be ready by then... I expect at best the project definition phase kicking off, conducting studies and so forth... If we see anything in-service before 2035 I’ll be amazed.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Forgive me if I don’t hold my breath, expecting a Growler replacement to be ready by then... I expect at best the project definition phase kicking off, conducting studies and so forth... If we see anything in-service before 2035 I’ll be amazed.
Sorry if i was being a bit confusing but thats what i meant, this project is not due to kick in until 27-28 so looking at first Aircraft in service date mid 2030s at the very earliest but it will probably have to survive a White Paper before then anyway.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
Interesting to see how the RAAF actually goes about replacing the Growlers.

The USN doesn't seem to have any major plans for their replacement, however the USAF is reportedly acquiring DEAD/SEAD capabilities for the F-35 starting with lots 14 and 15. Earlier models will also be retrofitted for that role. I think the RAAF is currently contracted for fifteen Lot 14 and nine Lot 15 aircraft.

Another, and in my opinion, more likely option would be unmanned aircraft.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Interesting to see how the RAAF actually goes about replacing the Growlers.

The USN doesn't seem to have any major plans for their replacement, however the USAF is reportedly acquiring DEAD/SEAD capabilities for the F-35 starting with lots 14 and 15. Earlier models will also be retrofitted for that role. I think the RAAF is currently contracted for fifteen Lot 14 and nine Lot 15 aircraft.

Another, and in my opinion, more likely option would be unmanned aircraft.
The USAF has an urgent requirement for SEAD / DEAD aircraft because they never replaced their F-4 Wild Weasels and EF-111 Ravens. Think that is right. At the moment UAV for the role is not something that can be easily done because of how the Growler back seater works. I would think that the RAAF would be well advised to let the US work that problem out and have it fully FOC before looking at the capability. It has the potential to be a huge money pit.
 

Boagrius

Well-Known Member
Yep, and AFAIK the SEAD/DEAD work on the F35 revolves more around making it an effective AARGM-ER shooter rather than a wide angle, wide band standoff jammer like Growler. I suspect we will have to wait for NGAD/PCA to truly replace it.
 

south

Well-Known Member
Without getting into any specifics as we all know they can’t be discussed openly, does 11 aircraft in a “squadron” strike you as particularly sustainable over the longer term? I wonder if we have a Tiger situation again here? We want them, but we don’t understand (until we get them and start using them) how much we needed them and how much OF them, we actually need...

To me the AEA Squadron should be the same size as any other fast jet sqn in reality, but I acknowledge the overall priorities are more important...
Here lies the rub. The RAAF could do with more fast jets (Army doesn't have enough tanks, Navy doesn't have enough escorts, etc). A single RAAF F-35 Squadron (if employed in a sustainable manner, 1:3 ratio etc) isn’t going to generate that much combat air power, for long, and their employment will have to be carefully prioritised by the Joint Force Commander. A further issue is comparing squadrons across different services - not all squadrons are created equal. USAF Fast Jet Squadrons are 24 aircraft. A RAAF F-35 Squadron will have ~16 aircraft, as such using the simplest metric and assuming everything else is equal the USAF Sqn will generate 50% more air (or 2 USAF Squadrons will have the equivalent effect of 3x RAAF Squadrons). I raise that to note different effects delivered in coalition environment, with the same 'nomenclature'.

Regarding Growlers, it appears that USN Squadrons have 8 aircraft, so 6 Squadron is in fact larger than a standard USN Squadron; by extension, the RAAF 'air wing' would likely have a similar number of EA-18G assets than a USN CVW, if committed as a full squadron (assuming 2-3 aircraft in deep maintenance). I don't see or hear much about USN air wings being deficient in their AEA capability to both protect the fleet and conduct offensive operations. I'll add the ADF never had an AEA capability, until the Growler came on line; its not as though everyone threw their arms up in the air prior and resigned themselves to defeat.
 
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