Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates

[John Newman]

What and miss out on all the fun?

Gents,

If you really want a laugh, read the comments in this "Australian Aviation" article from last December regarding a "slow down in F35 production":

F-35 head says production should be slowed | Australian Aviation Magazine

The very first person to comment was a "Peter", would that be a certain "Mr Peter Goon" I wondered to myself??

I won't go into all the details here, have a read of the comments, but in the end I just gave up trying to have a "rational" debate with "Anti F-35 Peter" It was all just too much, like having a religious zelot banging on your front door on a Saturday morning, asking if I had heard the word of God!!

Some of the garbage, especially about "we all had to look at the New Australia Website" and how great "APA" was.

But the one quote that "Peter" made totally lost me was:

John N, Andrew McLaughlin and to the other JSF advocates – Also just to let you guys know that the APA contributers are far more knowledgable than the RAAF, Department of Defence and Federal Government – with facts etc.


So there you have it!! Yes little old me, John N, may not be knowledgeable, but APA is "far" more knowledgeable than the RAAF, Defence and the Government!!!

So there you have it!! We are all stupid!!

Like I said, I just gave up, would have had more satisfaction smashing my head into the wall a dozen times or so!

 

[ASSAIL]

I don't know too much about the development progress of the F 35 but I do recall that it gives me a sense of dejavu.
From the time the F111 was ordered in 1964? until delivery of the F 111c's in 1973 the sky was going to fall in, the wing boxes would not last a week, it was impossible to couple an afterburner with a turbo fan etc etc.
I don't have the resources to go back and have a look at what our friends in the fourth estate were saying but I know it was rabid critiscism and predicted doom.
Well........they flew until 2010 and they made a difference.
Cheers

 

[RubiconNZ]

Any news on the 6th C-17 yet? A Budget Night announcement perhaps?

 

[Milne Bay]

Any news on the 6th C-17 yet? A Budget Night announcement perhaps?

Sixth C-17 for the RAAF

Item by australianaviation.com.au at 7:20 pm, Friday September 23 2011

CAF AIRMSHL Geoff Brown and Defence Minister Stephen Smith welcome the RAAF's fifth C-17 at Amberley. (Nic Eccles)

Defence Minister Stephen Smith has announced the RAAF will buy a sixth Boeing C-17A transport.

Speaking at a ceremony to mark the delivery of the RAAF’s fifth aircraft in the fleet, A41-210, at Amberley on September 23, Minister Smith said a formal Letter of Request had been submitted to the US government the previous day for the purchase of a sixth aircraft through the Foreign Military Sales (FMS) system.

Smith said the fifth and sixth aircraft will effectively double the RAAF’s heavy airlift capability from the original fleet of four aircraft when allowing for scheduled and unplanned maintenance. He said recent natural disasters in our region including Cyclone Yasi, the Christchurch earthquake and the Japan tsunami, as well as the C-17’s ongoing support to Australian forces deployed in the Middle East, had repeatedly proven the aircraft’s utility, and that the capability offered by the aircraft “underlines Australia’s regional influence” and our responsibility as an “international citizen.”

The original fleet of four C-17s, which was announced in February 2006 and delivered from December that year, was bolstered earlier this year by the acquisition of the fifth aircraft, which was ordered in early April. The fifth aircraft was delivered in a remarkable 142 days after it was ordered due to an urgent requirement from the RAAF to cover heavy maintenance of its first C-17, but assuming both the US and Australian governments approve its purchase on schedule, the sixth aircraft isn’t expected to be delivered until the fourth quarter of 2012.

In order to accommodate the two new aircraft, the RAAF expects additional ramp and hangar space and terminal facilities will be required at the northern end of Amberley where 36SQN’s C-17s and the growing fleet of KC-30A MRTTs of 33SQN – expected to number four by early next year – are based.

 

[jack412]

U.S. Defense Budget To Emphasize Asia-Pacific | AVIATION WEEK. Defense Budget To Emphasize Asia-Pacific
Thirteen of the 38 of the C-27J aircraft that have been delivered could be eligible for sale to an ally but will likely be put into storage in the near term; the cost of this has not been released.

well this could be welcomed news

 

[RubiconNZ]

Sixth C-17 for the RAAF

Item by australianaviation.com.au at 7:20 pm, Friday September 23 2011

CAF AIRMSHL Geoff Brown and Defence Minister Stephen Smith welcome the RAAF's fifth C-17 at Amberley. (Nic Eccles)

Defence Minister Stephen Smith has announced the RAAF will buy a sixth Boeing C-17A transport.

Speaking at a ceremony to mark the delivery of the RAAF’s fifth aircraft in the fleet, A41-210, at Amberley on September 23, Minister Smith said a formal Letter of Request had been submitted to the US government the previous day for the purchase of a sixth aircraft through the Foreign Military Sales (FMS) system.

Smith said the fifth and sixth aircraft will effectively double the RAAF’s heavy airlift capability from the original fleet of four aircraft when allowing for scheduled and unplanned maintenance. He said recent natural disasters in our region including Cyclone Yasi, the Christchurch earthquake and the Japan tsunami, as well as the C-17’s ongoing support to Australian forces deployed in the Middle East, had repeatedly proven the aircraft’s utility, and that the capability offered by the aircraft “underlines Australia’s regional influence” and our responsibility as an “international citizen.”

The original fleet of four C-17s, which was announced in February 2006 and delivered from December that year, was bolstered earlier this year by the acquisition of the fifth aircraft, which was ordered in early April. The fifth aircraft was delivered in a remarkable 142 days after it was ordered due to an urgent requirement from the RAAF to cover heavy maintenance of its first C-17, but assuming both the US and Australian governments approve its purchase on schedule, the sixth aircraft isn’t expected to be delivered until the fourth quarter of 2012.

In order to accommodate the two new aircraft, the RAAF expects additional ramp and hangar space and terminal facilities will be required at the northern end of Amberley where 36SQN’s C-17s and the growing fleet of KC-30A MRTTs of 33SQN – expected to number four by early next year – are based.

Thanks for that I was aware of the FMS letter of sale but not that it had been formally committed to,

Cheers

 

[RubiconNZ]

U.S. Defense Budget To Emphasize Asia-Pacific | AVIATION WEEK. Defense Budget To Emphasize Asia-Pacific
Thirteen of the 38 of the C-27J aircraft that have been delivered could be eligible for sale to an ally but will likely be put into storage in the near term; the cost of this has not been released.

well this could be welcomed news

I wonder what the rationale is behind only 13 available, perhaps the manufacturer will accept the others back? 13 sounds like the perfect number for the RAAF

 

[Abraham Gubler]

I wonder what the rationale is behind only 13 available, perhaps the manufacturer will accept the others back? 13 sounds like the perfect number for the RAAF

They only have funding to keep 25 so 13 aren't needed. The RAAF requirement is only for 10 so the other three could end up almost anywhere. I would say AFSOC is most likely...

 

[Tasman]

They only have funding to keep 25 so 13 aren't needed. The RAAF requirement is only for 10 so the other three could end up almost anywhere. I would say AFSOC is most likely...

I think a sale of 10 to Australia would be a win/win for both countries.


Tas

 

[John Newman]

Any news on the 6th C-17 yet? A Budget Night announcement perhaps?

Hopefully soon, as you say probably a Budget Night announcement.

Interesting that you should ask about the 6th for the RAAF, just saw this on Flight Global about the RAF ordering its 8th:

UK to buy eighth C-17 transport

The remaining airframes for the USAF, 6th RAAF, 8th RAF, a few for the middle east and India's order for 10 should see the line run for a few years more yet.

The other interest thing in the UK announcement is the cost, $316m ($US I assume), I though the figures, I saw quoted somewhere for the RAAF's 6th was reported to be in the range of $200m-$250m.

Suppose it all comes down to what is or isn't included, spares, engines, support etc, in that price.

 

[Tee_Centre_10]

Gents,

If you really want a laugh, read the comments in this "Australian Aviation" article from last December regarding a "slow down in F35 production":

F-35 head says production should be slowed | Australian Aviation Magazine

The very first person to comment was a "Peter", would that be a certain "Mr Peter Goon" I wondered to myself??

I have only one reply to that...WTF?

I haven't been much impressed by APA and their views, but I seem to have missed being ensnared by an APA-cone-of-logic argument while out and about online.
Their papers (and Kopp articles) at least have a vaneer of semi-lucidity about them, but that comment thread scared me a bit! I had no idea they were that ludicrous.
The circular logic, the liberal sprinkling of irrelevant "facts", the casual assumption of opinion as truth, the combat tactics that were last successfully employed in the Spanish Civil War, the arguments that are contradicted in the same sentence...oh dear, I'm feeling a bit dizzy so I'm going to lie down for a while.

 

[John Newman]

I have only one reply to that...WTF?

I haven't been much impressed by APA and their views, but I seem to have missed being ensnared by an APA-cone-of-logic argument while out and about online.
Their papers (and Kopp articles) at least have a vaneer of semi-lucidity about them, but that comment thread scared me a bit! I had no idea they were that ludicrous.
The circular logic, the liberal sprinkling of irrelevant "facts", the casual assumption of opinion as truth, the combat tactics that were last successfully employed in the Spanish Civil War, the arguments that are contradicted in the same sentence...oh dear, I'm feeling a bit dizzy so I'm going to lie down for a while.

Hi Tee,

Sorry for giving the headache after reading that crap, (hope there was a laugh or two?), like I said, I got the point where I gave up and wanted to smash my head into the wall!!

Not that I'm pushing it, and NO i'm not, but if you got to read that "New Australia" website that "Peter" was pushing (I asked if he was "associated" with it, but got no answer), well that was the icing on the cake for all the crap being peddled, very odd indeed!

Anyway, take a Bex, lie still for a while, and you should feel better soon!

 

[StingrayOZ]

So 10 x C27J and 6 x C17 would seem to fill the airlift need pretty well. I would imagine the argument would be strong for Australia operating them given our region, new arrangements up north with the USMC.

Is the army looking at getting any more Chinooks?

Would the C27J be based at Richmond with the remaining hercs?.

I worry about this comment..

The fifth aircraft was delivered in a remarkable 142 days after it was ordered due to an urgent requirement from the RAAF to cover heavy maintenance of its first C-17

Sounds like purchases get accelerated every time something needs to go offline for maintenance or repairs. Atleast now with 6 frames, there should be a decent number avalible most of the time.

 

[ADMk2]

So 10 x C27J and 6 x C17 would seem to fill the airlift need pretty well. I would imagine the argument would be strong for Australia operating them given our region, new arrangements up north with the USMC.

Is the army looking at getting any more Chinooks?

Army has 7x -D models now, with 7x -F models on order. No decision has yet been made as to what will happen with the -D models.

The Chinook capability was part of ADF's overall airlift study (which is why it can be discussed here) and whilst some have pushed for as many as 12, I'm not sure we'll see that many funded along with the BLA, I believe some of the -D models will be retained and perhaps upgraded locally to -F model standard and we'll see between 7-10 remain in-service over the long term.

Would the C27J be based at Richmond with the remaining hercs

No, they'll be based with 38 Sqn at RAAF Townsville.

 

[Tee_Centre_10]

Sounds like purchases get accelerated every time something needs to go offline for maintenance or repairs. Atleast now with 6 frames, there should be a decent number avalible most of the time.

I don't think it is because of program deficiencies. I think it is more that the C-17s were getting more use than was expected when the fleet was planned around four aircraft.
It's probably a good thing, because it probably means that the C-17s are proving so useful or so economical that they are being used more instead of C-130s or chartered cargo.

Does anyone know if the C-130Js are being used/released for tactical roles yet? I thought they awaiting software/EW updates before they could undertake tactical missions.
Perhaps a purchase of another 1 or 2 C-17s (for a 7 or 8 aircraft fleet) for strategic transport and the remaining C-130Hs can be retired completely and the C-130Js (and C-27Js?) take over the tactical/battlefield role.

 

[gf0012-aust]

10 Spartans were on the shopping list in Mar of 2006. (the earliest email traffic that I had from a usually highly reliable source)

its only taken 6 years to go full circle again.

 

[hairyman]

:relWould New Zealand be interested in purchasing any Spartans? Perhaps three?:rel

 

[Milne Bay]

:relWould New Zealand be interested in purchasing any Spartans? Perhaps three?:rel

How do you sell Seaspite ........

I mean, how do you spell Seasprite ........

I don't think NZ is looking for this kind of transport - could be wrong though

 

[ngatimozart]

How do you sell Seaspite ........

I mean, how do you spell Seasprite ........

I don't think NZ is looking for this kind of transport - could be wrong though

Seasprite. NZ is looking at a air transport component, officially in the 2015 Defence White Paper. The discussion for this is http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/air-force-aviation/royal-new-zealand-air-force-6601/

 

[Andrew McL]

No, they'll be based with 38 Sqn at RAAF Townsville.

Hey AD et al

I know I keep saying I won't be back, but...

The C-27Js...if they happen...will probably be based at Richmond with a resurrected 35SQN under 84WG.

But the US decision has thrown the cat amongst the pigeons re the C-27J...the RAAF/CDG must now decide whether to buy the jet and embark on our own indigenous upgrade path (a big effort), or to look again at the C295, or at re-wingboxing the C-130Hs, or at more Chinooks.

Re Chinooks...I doubt we'll see more than the seven Foxtrots in service from 2019ish unless there's a change in tack from the results of the airlift study. That may be possible considering the current C-27J program issues.

Re the sixth C-17...last I heard pricing and availability had been received back from the US, a formal request had been submitted by the DASC, and that the aircraft was penciled in for a 4th quarter 2012 delivery.

Re NZ - there is a lot of interest in NZ for the A400M. Would be a good addition to their Orbat for regional humanitarian work, and for supporting their deployed assets further afield. There is also interest in a lower tier MPA - something like a CN239/295, Dash 8 or ATR, to complement the P-3Ks.

Cheers