Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates

[jack412]

At least the f-35 didn't have to worry about running out of missiles in the sim, because it didn't get to fire them.
I bet they have another sim where the f-35 ran out of missiles and were 'clubbed like a baby seal'

They still haven't caught on that official Russian missile ranges are measured at an alt of ~25,000 meters and official US missiles are measured at ~11,000 meters. [~35,000ft]
That gives about a 2 times range advantage to the Russian than if they were both fired at the same alt, then they play their numbers game on top of that

 

[Milne Bay]

At least the f-35 didn't have to worry about running out of missiles in the sim, because it didn't get to fire them.
I bet they have another sim where the f-35 ran out of missiles and were 'clubbed like a baby seal'

They still haven't caught on that official Russian missile ranges are measured at an alt of ~25,000 meters and official US missiles are measured at ~11,000 meters. [~35,000ft]
That gives about a 2 times range advantage to the Russian than if they were both fired at the same alt, then they play their numbers game on top of that

Jeez - how many aircraft other than the SR-71 could/can fly at 25000 metres?
I don't think any of the Flankers can do that - might be wrong though.

 

[ADMk2]

Jeez - how many aircraft other than the SR-71 could/can fly at 25000 metres?
I don't think any of the Flankers can do that - might be wrong though.

That's P suit territory so no, Flankers flown against RAAF fighters won't be flying at 75,000 feet...

And we're still waiting to hear of more orders for the SU-35 than the 48 of such aircraft Russia has ordered and of course yet to hear of any Chinese interest in this aircraft let alone orders for 240 combat coded SU-35's.

Other than those minor points, these simulations appear pretty spot on...

 

[jack412]

the MIG but thanks for checking me, it's a memory lapse, it should be 20,000m launch alt

using their method the old AIM-120a has a range of 120 km

R-77
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_44d3OT-xI3U/SOqI471zX6I/AAAAAAAAANU/N7EzCSXccTM/s400/R-77-2.jpg

aim-120a
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R-27r1
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from a russian sim site talking about APA and their nonsense, starts at page 3, worth a look from page 11
http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=56486&page=3

 

[Todjaeger]

The transcript of the APA farce is up.

It's nothing new, America has to restart F-22 production or the world is going to end and we as Australia are bound as mates to convince America to do so...

Oh and apparently China will have 240x SU-35S's in-service by 2018.

http://www.aph.gov.au/house/committee/jfadt/defenceannualreport_2010_2011/hearings.htm

Interesting reading. I particularly like the 2nd to last sentence in the first comment from the Chair.

The giving of false or misleading evidence is a serious matter and may be regarded as contempt of parliament.

Other areas I found 'interesting' was that APA & Co. was that they assumed for the sim that the PRC would have developed a JORN-like HF radar, but with a range of 4,000+ n miles. While I suppose this is possible, my impression was that Australia is/was one of the world leaders in that type of radar system, having spent something like three decades developing and deploying JORN. Something which they apparently neglected to get into is that while such radar systems can potentially negate LO features due to the radio frequencies used and vector for the incoming and returning signal, such systems are only useful as an early detection/tripwire. They do not on their own provide target quality data.

That means any of the inbound PRC aircraft would need to wait until either their own radars, or if they have AEW support those radars, detect any of the opposing F/A-18 SHornets, F-35's, or F-22's.

Ignoring that sort of importance performance difference does seem to highlight how questionable some of the assumptions using in the simulation are. I rather wonder if RepSim Pty Ltd has done any simulation work at the request of the Australian and/or US Gov'ts using non-public domain information.

-Cheers

 

[ngatimozart]

Interesting reading. I particularly like the 2nd to last sentence in the first comment from the Chair.



Other areas I found 'interesting' was that APA & Co. was that they assumed for the sim that the PRC would have developed a JORN-like HF radar, but with a range of 4,000+ n miles. While I suppose this is possible, my impression was that Australia is/was one of the world leaders in that type of radar system, having spent something like three decades developing and deploying JORN. Something which they apparently neglected to get into is that while such radar systems can potentially negate LO features due to the radio frequencies used and vector for the incoming and returning signal, such systems are only useful as an early detection/tripwire. They do not on their own provide target quality data.

That means any of the inbound PRC aircraft would need to wait until either their own radars, or if they have AEW support those radars, detect any of the opposing F/A-18 SHornets, F-35's, or F-22's.

Ignoring that sort of importance performance difference does seem to highlight how questionable some of the assumptions using in the simulation are. I rather wonder if RepSim Pty Ltd has done any simulation work at the request of the Australian and/or US Gov'ts using non-public domain information.

-Cheers

I am not being facetious at all but after having read the APA testimony I wondered what kind of magic mushrooms they were using. Yes and the comment from the chair about testimony and contempt of parliament, as Todj picked up. Methinks that the Senate are aware of the veracity of their evidence and professional capabilities with regard to airpower and its attributes; plus their reputation amongst their peers.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

After having read the transcript I must say they wasted their hour. In effect their argument was ‘trust us and our charts of arcane knowledge, we know better’. By referring to various simulations and studies they played into the strengths of the RAAF and Department of Defence. Apart from a handful of back bench randoms who in Parliament is going to believe these guys over their own air force? The DoD simply responded:

”The criticisms are inconsistent with years of detailed analysis undertaken by Defence, the JSF program office, Lockheed Martin and eight other F-35 partner nations.”

By pushing silly, flawed simulations and arguments about how the F-35 isn’t good enough and wasting everyone’s time with inaccurate theories about the design history of the aircraft they failed to capitalise on their one sustainable argument. That the F-35 is late and over budget. They also failed to offer a realistic alternative to this situation. Though the later probably doesn’t really exist.

 

[ADMk2]

After having read the transcript I must say they wasted their hour. In effect their argument was ‘trust us and our charts of arcane knowledge, we know better’. By referring to various simulations and studies they played into the strengths of the RAAF and Department of Defence. Apart from a handful of back bench randoms who in Parliament is going to believe these guys over their own air force? The DoD simply responded:



By pushing silly, flawed simulations and arguments about how the F-35 isn’t good enough and wasting everyone’s time with inaccurate theories about the design history of the aircraft they failed to capitalise on their one sustainable argument. That the F-35 is late and over budget. They also failed to offer a realistic alternative to this situation. Though the later probably doesn’t really exist.

Yep, Goon got cut off just as he was about to lapse back into F-22 is the only solution argument he's made a thousand times before.

So they spent an hour raving on about how the Super Hornet and JSF aren't good enough and offered precisely no solutions whatsoever to meet our requirements, both operational and funding wise.

Absolutely useless. Like everything they've done since their AFTS proposal floundered.

 

[jack412]

what they could have done was to propose that the Gov/ADF award APA a contract to build the f-22i [i for international]
Get the USA lend APA the the jigs and APA will manage it and subcontract the production out...and RepSim can provide all the training Sims etc

 

[Marc 1]

what they could have done was to propose that the Gov/ADF award APA a contract to build the f-22i [i for international]
Get the USA lend APA the the jigs and APA will manage it and subcontract the production out...and RepSim can provide all the training Sims etc

That idea is going straight to the poolroom...Sheer genius that. (for readers who are not fans of Australian film, get a DVD: "The Castle")

Of course for suggesting that and doing all the groundwork etc - you should be granted the IP on the idea and receive a massive cut of the profits.

 

[STURM]

Apologies for getting off topic but can anyone confirm that the first live firing ever conducted by the RAAF of a Magic missile, was done by a Mirage 111 off the coast of Butterworth, Malaysia, in October 1984?

 

[jack412]

here's a bit more

3 Squadron RAAF - dates
WGCDR B. R. Wood 16/6/84 - 31/3/86
25 Oct 1984
New missiles The Matra 550 'Magic' missile 1st fired.

 

[STURM]

here's a bit more

3 Squadron RAAF - dates
WGCDR B. R. Wood 16/6/84 - 31/3/86
25 Oct 1984
New missiles The Matra 550 'Magic' missile 1st fired.

Thanks but I'm not sure if this was the first Magic ever to be fired by the RAAF or whether it was the first to be fired abroad. I've got a feeling that this was actually the first to be fire out of Australia as 1984 seems a bit too late for the first ever live firing. There use to be a site with excellent photos showing the actual launch of the missile by a Butterworth based Mirage111 and the missiles being loaded, but I can't find it anymore.

Also, does anyone have any knowledge of RAAF Mirages from Butterworth or Tengah intercepting Soviet planes that intruded into Malaysian/Singapore airspace?

 

[jack412]

I just saw on 5thC that our Growlers are almost official
$200m refit to give fighter jets growl | Adelaide Now

THE Federal Government will spend more than $200 million to transform six air force fighter jets into hi-tech electronic warfare planes.

The RAAF purchased 24 Boeing Super Hornet fighters under a $6 billion deal with the US Navy to fill the gap between the retirement of the F-111 fighter bomber and the expected delivery of the first batch of 14 Joint Strike Fighter stealth jets later this decade.

Defence Minister Stephen Smith will announce the decision to upgrade the jet fighters early next month to EA-18G models known as "Growlers" to plug an emerging air combat capability gap.

 

[Andrew McL]

An announcement on Growler isn't far away...

 

[Todjaeger]

An announcement on Growler isn't far away...

Interesting. Also good to see you cannot "stay away", nice to hear what insights you have about ADF aviation issues.

-Cheers

 

[ADMk2]

An announcement on Growler isn't far away...

Any word on a HARM or AARGM acquisition to support the Growler or will JSOW continue to be relied upon?

 

[Andrew McL]

Any word on a HARM or AARGM acquisition to support the Growler or will JSOW continue to be relied upon?

Inside word is HARM may be a part of the package, although a hard kill capability isn't necessarily a short term requirement.

Have posted an opinion piece on the Australian Aviation Magazine website this afternoon on JSF, although it may all be for nought if Smith returns to Foreign Affairs next week as has been predicted!

Also, I received a private message today but am unable to reply to it - there's no reply option that I can see. Can someone please PM me with a solution?

 

[ADMk2]

Inside word is HARM may be a part of the package, although a hard kill capability isn't necessarily a short term requirement.

Have posted an opinion piece on the Australian Aviation Magazine website this afternoon on JSF, although it may all be for nought if Smith returns to Foreign Affairs next week as has been predicted!

Also, I received a private message today but am unable to reply to it - there's no reply option that I can see. Can someone please PM me with a solution?

You've got to get 50 posts up otherwise the PM system doesn't work. It's an anti-troll / spam measure...

 

[RubiconNZ]

Interesting development in regards to potential Spartan purchases:

Alenia Warns U.S. Over C-27J Sales

Certainly an interesting move by Alenia, I understand the thought behind the move, a bold step really. It will be interesting to see the reaction from the US DOD. Does anyone believe this will encourage the US to keep the current inventory in house? ie. Homeland Security, SOCOM etc as the article suggests.