Yup, I have, here is RMAF Gong Kedak AFB.renjer said:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=...9948,102.484159&spn=0.02028,0.043259&t=k&om=1
RMAF Future; need opinions
- Thread starter Ding
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http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=...9948,102.484159&spn=0.02028,0.043259&t=k&om=1
weasel1962
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No 4. is WMKJ Senai airport, Johore.weasel1962 said:Close. No. 4's not Kluang.
Kluang's at:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=...9948,102.484159&spn=0.02028,0.043259&t=k&om=1
Its something further south.
Butterworth should be here:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=...579,100.391436&spn=0.063141,0.107803&t=k&om=1
Oh by the way, your link for Kluang is actually not Kluang, but Gong Kedak AFB.
WMAP Kluang Airport can't be seen clearly on google earth/maps.
This is Kluang:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=...823,103.307533&spn=0.040744,0.086517&t=k&om=1
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weasel1962
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Recent news, Mig29's are to be de-activated and are going into storage due to a lack of pilots, I was quite unaware of how severe the problem was, that it warrants de-activation and storage of aircraft.
Possible upgrades of F-18Ds to be equipped with JDAMS, suggests that Malaysia won't take up the Boeing offer of Super Hornets anytime soon, budgetary constraints cited that JDAM upgrade funding won't even be availible. The future where the RMAF operates the super hornets seems to be bleak, in my opinion.
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weasel1962
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Yes, definately not such a bad thing, as has been said frequently by quite a few of us on this forum, the RMAF operates a highly varied fleet, rationalisation would definately have its advantages, especially considering that there are also other more pressing procurement needs for the service, such as replacing the old Nuri workhorse helicopters, the repeated calls for AEW&C aircraft, amongst other things, I think the priority to replace the Nuris supersedes that of replacing less than decade old RMAF hornets. Realistically, we all know Malaysia has a small defence budget allocation, if the super hornet purchase ever went through we all knew it wouldn't be in the near future.renjer said:
Huh, What are you guys talking about? Come on lets not be so esoteric, share it with all of us. By the way, what is this fighterplanes forum thing you guys are talking about, how about sending me the link?renjer said:
I absolutely, wholeheartedly totally agree with you on this one!! I find our view is in the minority. Why don't the policy makers stop meddling and distorting the local commercial aviation sector and let the market operate, especially since it inadvertently affects the RMAF.weasel1962 said:
In my opinion the government has no place bailing out a commercial aviation entity, its not in the governments business to do that, it has directly affected the RMAF with pilot shortages because of the current domestic aviation liberalisation.
Which begs the question, are other countries with the same situation affected similarly? Are the IAF experiencing the same pilot shortages as the RMAF as a result, following domestic liberalisation of the local (inefficient) aviation market, like Malaysia? The RMAF should have priority over the pride and prestige of Malaysian commercial carriers. In the long run it is better for all concerned, the RMAF and the local avaition sector.
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weasel1962
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Maybe Malaysia needs to reactivate the University Air Squadron concept it disbanded years ago. This will get more undergraduates to know more about the air force and maybe enter it after graduating. But this time pls do it wholeheartedly and get some personnels from the RAF UAS to get it moving etc...
RMAF still got lots of surplus aerotiga's and that can be used to start the UAS
RMAF still got lots of surplus aerotiga's and that can be used to start the UAS
Well, I think RMAF really has to look into retaining the pilots they've trained. If their air force is not willing to offer a competitive salary, then they will continue to lose pilots to civilian carriers. Maybe not to MAS or Air Asia, but also to other foreign airlines as well.
I suspect one of the major reasons that also contributed to the Mig-29s being storeds is the amount of time it spends in maintenance and its parts wearing out too quickly. The current Mig-29Ns are not brand new airframes at all, though they've been well refurbished. Russian planes built during the cold war just aren't built to last.
I suspect one of the major reasons that also contributed to the Mig-29s being storeds is the amount of time it spends in maintenance and its parts wearing out too quickly. The current Mig-29Ns are not brand new airframes at all, though they've been well refurbished. Russian planes built during the cold war just aren't built to last.
weasel1962
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Well, from what I understood from the situation at that point of time, there were some disagreements and discrepancies in their negotiations with the Russians on the MiG-29 purchase. We were following it rather closely back then... quite exciting really. In anycase, due to those disagreements, I suspect the MiG-29s the RMAF recieved weren't totally new. Though I do not have those documentations anymore, I'll try to dig up some on the WWW.
One of them was this, in 1992, when they first considered the MiG-29.
Excerpt from the Herald Tribune.
"The Commonwealth also would accept a substantial part of the payment in palm oil and other Malaysian commodities, rather than cash, the sources said.
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An undertaking by the Commonwealth to start deliveries of the MiG-29s next year, much earlier than competing Western planes would be available, is also an attractive feature of the offer, according to Malaysian analysts.
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They said that many, if not all, the MiG-29s required by Malaysia could be drawn from surplus stock following cancellations of orders by the Russian Air Force as part of military cutbacks ordered by President Boris N. Yeltsin."
Here's another bit. From sci.fi too.. =D
"The Malaysian MiG-29's were at first considered to be a "fat back" Fulcrum A mod 1. By the time the aircraft started delivery in July 1995 it became clear that the RMAF MiG-29's would be basic Fulcrum A (non-fatback variety), but with MiG-29S flight control, suspension, and weapon system upgrades. Unique to Malaysia is the new reliability gear box on the engines and the flight control roll limiter and rudder enhancer. "
So Russia opens up productions lines for a small order of 18 Fulcrums, and produces 18 Fulcrum As (non fatback) for less than $330 million real currency? Yes, the deal included products such as palm oil and fabrics... but plant workers don't work for palm oil and fabric. And it after much delay, the contracts for the Mig-29s were signed in June 94, and the Russians managed to deliver by July 95, just ONE year? And they delivered brand new Fulcrum A air frames? When they still had 100+ Mig-29s in storage?
Some of the previous documents I previously had access to (and somehow wounded up on the internet, though I cant seem to find that site now), suspects that additional MiG-29As were retired from a certain Air Force, together with existing stored MiG-29s were taken, and refurbished into MiG-29Ns.
Shortly after recieving the MiG-29"N"s, they were against sent for refurbishing, incorporated with western avionics, radar upgrade as well as some work with the wing hard points to allow the fulcrum to shoot AMRAAMs. Its not often that I see brand new aircraft that needs this much re-work.
In anycase, the RMAF's Fulcrums are magnificent aircraft, and kudos to its pilots and technicians for being able to handle such a maintenance intensive aircraft til today. Before the RMAF selected the MiG-29s over the F/A-18s (before RMAF acquired the hornets too), a US Lt Col, did warn the RMAF about the Fulcrums being more maintenance costly in the long run. IMO, RMAF should have gone with more hornets.
One of them was this, in 1992, when they first considered the MiG-29.
Excerpt from the Herald Tribune.
"The Commonwealth also would accept a substantial part of the payment in palm oil and other Malaysian commodities, rather than cash, the sources said.
.
An undertaking by the Commonwealth to start deliveries of the MiG-29s next year, much earlier than competing Western planes would be available, is also an attractive feature of the offer, according to Malaysian analysts.
.
They said that many, if not all, the MiG-29s required by Malaysia could be drawn from surplus stock following cancellations of orders by the Russian Air Force as part of military cutbacks ordered by President Boris N. Yeltsin."
Here's another bit. From sci.fi too.. =D
"The Malaysian MiG-29's were at first considered to be a "fat back" Fulcrum A mod 1. By the time the aircraft started delivery in July 1995 it became clear that the RMAF MiG-29's would be basic Fulcrum A (non-fatback variety), but with MiG-29S flight control, suspension, and weapon system upgrades. Unique to Malaysia is the new reliability gear box on the engines and the flight control roll limiter and rudder enhancer. "
So Russia opens up productions lines for a small order of 18 Fulcrums, and produces 18 Fulcrum As (non fatback) for less than $330 million real currency? Yes, the deal included products such as palm oil and fabrics... but plant workers don't work for palm oil and fabric. And it after much delay, the contracts for the Mig-29s were signed in June 94, and the Russians managed to deliver by July 95, just ONE year? And they delivered brand new Fulcrum A air frames? When they still had 100+ Mig-29s in storage?
Some of the previous documents I previously had access to (and somehow wounded up on the internet, though I cant seem to find that site now), suspects that additional MiG-29As were retired from a certain Air Force, together with existing stored MiG-29s were taken, and refurbished into MiG-29Ns.
Shortly after recieving the MiG-29"N"s, they were against sent for refurbishing, incorporated with western avionics, radar upgrade as well as some work with the wing hard points to allow the fulcrum to shoot AMRAAMs. Its not often that I see brand new aircraft that needs this much re-work.
In anycase, the RMAF's Fulcrums are magnificent aircraft, and kudos to its pilots and technicians for being able to handle such a maintenance intensive aircraft til today. Before the RMAF selected the MiG-29s over the F/A-18s (before RMAF acquired the hornets too), a US Lt Col, did warn the RMAF about the Fulcrums being more maintenance costly in the long run. IMO, RMAF should have gone with more hornets.
weasel1962
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Well, the websites you listed reinforced the allegation that they were indeed Fulcrum As on the time of delivery, not MiG-29Ns.
If you allow me to just copy n paste selectively.
To continue on...
I'm not here to prove anything. There is absolutely nothing wrong with having our own opinions and beliefs to the origins of the Migs. You can stick to yours, I'll stick to mine.
If you allow me to just copy n paste selectively.
cross ref to:
Export upgrade... of an older model? I'm not sure, but the norm for really "new build" export versions are generally downgrades. To me, logically, an export upgrade means u take an existing plane, add some new stuff to it, then you sell it.
To continue on...
I'm sure what I point out doesnt mean much on its own. But altogether, it casts some doubts on whether those aircraft were really really brand new aircraft. Other suspicions that was put forward was that the RMAF test and trialed a significantly more advanced Fulcrum [SE/SM :hehe ] compared to the ones they recieved.
I'm not here to prove anything. There is absolutely nothing wrong with having our own opinions and beliefs to the origins of the Migs. You can stick to yours, I'll stick to mine.
weasel1962
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Zaphael said:
What that meant in plain english is that the delivered brand new MiG-29N's after flying 800 hours in RMAF service were upgraded to the final MiG-29N configuration. Look at the time that the 1st upgraded aircraft flew. Its clearly after all the MiG's were delivered to Malaysia.
I owned an AFM magazine last time (lost it) with the pics of the reopened production line with malaysian MiG's (semi-finished state with RMAF fin flash on the tailfin), and pictures of lots of finished planes outside of the factory.
Well my apologies. Maybe I read too much into the subtleties of the language.
To me when I see that sentence, "upgraded to FULL MiG-29N standards", i see a subtle suggestion that the RMAF expected a FULL MiG-29N standard aircraft upon delivery, but did not recieve as such. Hence the later upgrade.
As for the "new build," that may or may not be interpreted as brand new air frames. From the scratch construction instead of pieced together or remodifying of existing frames. Of course, Im not gonna challenge that designation.
What we found peculiar was the re-opening of a production line for a small qty of relatively old (and existing) aircraft, when stored ones were available. And for a relatively small sum of hard curency in payment too.
To me when I see that sentence, "upgraded to FULL MiG-29N standards", i see a subtle suggestion that the RMAF expected a FULL MiG-29N standard aircraft upon delivery, but did not recieve as such. Hence the later upgrade.
As for the "new build," that may or may not be interpreted as brand new air frames. From the scratch construction instead of pieced together or remodifying of existing frames. Of course, Im not gonna challenge that designation.
What we found peculiar was the re-opening of a production line for a small qty of relatively old (and existing) aircraft, when stored ones were available. And for a relatively small sum of hard curency in payment too.
Zaphael said:
I read it as the Malaysian MiG-29s were upgraded to feature Westernized avionics and add other improvements during production, which like the newly ordered Su-30MKM, the RMAF usually goes for some sort of upgrade in terms of western avionics and systems, rather than the stock standard aircraft in the Russian service, whatever the case maybe, the Malaysian MiGs are a capable aircraft in the regional context regardless of new build or stored, as has been noted by serveral commentators, like the Australian Strategic Policy Institute.
I see the MiGs staying in the Malaysian service for some time, since these aircraft are being stored instead of sold to a third country. I wonder if the attrition MiGs would be replaced now that the Su-30MKMs are coming online, or if the MiG29's are to be further upgraded. Where does this leave the F/A 18 planes in the RMAF since plans are afoot to add JDAM capabilities, does this signal further aircraft hornets are to be purchased in the not too distant future?