RMAF Future; need opinions

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Latest news article that leaves me speechless - talk about policy flip flop.

MIG29s to fly for five more years

February 23rd, 2010 - KUANTAN: The Royal Malaysian Air Force's (RMAF) MiG-29N aircraft will fly for at least another five years, Defence Minister Datuk Seri Ahmad Zahid Hamidi said. He said the government had decided to continue operating the Russian-made aircraft although there was a proposal to retire and sell them to third world countries.

"The decision was based on the capability of the aircraft (MIG-29N) in executing the tasks given," he told reporters after visiting the RMAF base here today. Zahid said factors considered include the country's economy which had yet to fully recover from the economic slowdown. "We plan to buy more multi-role combat aircraft (MRCA) but the economic situation is preventing it," he said.

The government also considered a suggestion by former prime minister Tun Dr Mahathir Mohamad who in his blog said the MIG-29N aircraft should be in service. Zahid said Aerospace Technique System Corporation Sdn Bhd (ATSC) would be asked to refurbish the aircraft by upgrading the equipments at lower costs.

The government had expected to save RM260 million annually with the retirement of the MIGs on Dec 31. Meanwhile, RMAF chief Gen Datuk Seri Rodzali Daud said only ten MIG aircraft would be taking to the skies as six others had been decommissioned.
Malaysian TV News report on the same:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G71PhtwtDKE]10 RMAF MIG 29Ns will not be retired[/ame]

Note: IIRC the Malaysians acquired 16 MIG-29N's and 2 MiG-29NUB's in 1995 (2 MIG-29Ns crashed in the past due to technical problems).
 
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gonggok

New Member
I guess the Gripen deal is off for the moment...

No refurbishment. They will just overhaul a number of aircraft (in addition to the ones that have been overhauled) to make it ten aircraft and spread out the usage to make it last another 5 years.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
IIRC the Malaysians acquired 16 MIG-29N's and 2 MiG-29NUB's in 1995 (2 MIG-29Ns crashed in the past due to technical problems).
Indeed, it was 18 Fulcrums and a non-flying example for insructional training. Though the Russians had included 8 Mil-35s in the initial package, these were rejected.
 

Toptob

Active Member
Whow smashing news. I thought it was a good thing they we're going to dump the fulcrums :confused: . This is going to be expensive, and they're only getting an overhaul? I mean is this a good or a bad move for the malaysian AF?

Wouldn't it serve the AF to keep a smaller contingent of fast jets and focus more on training infrastructure and logistics? Because from what I read, and expensive fleet is not the only problem they face.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
Whow smashing news. I thought it was a good thing they we're going to dump the fulcrums :confused: . This is going to be expensive, and they're only getting an overhaul? I mean is this a good or a bad move for the malaysian AF? .
Retiring or retaining the Fulcrums have their benefits and drawbacks. From a logistical and support viewpoint, retiring the Fulcrums would have been the perfect solution as it would have placed less strain on the support infrastructure. The retirement of the Fulcrums however would have left the RMAF's combat fleet to just 8 Hornets, 3-4 F-5Es and about 16 Hawk 200s. The 18 Su-30MKMs are only expected to reach OIC in a few months.

focus more on training and logistics
The challenge now will be to mantain flying hours as the operational budget was recently slashed. New training assets include 18 PC-7 MK 11s and 8 MBB-339CMs. About 35 of the 44 PC-7 Mk 1s delivered in the 80's are still in service with plans to replace them in batches with the Mk 11. 2 F-5Fs have also recently received an overhaul and a limited upgrade. Other newly delivered training assets include a centrifuge simulator and a leased ACMI system.
 
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Awang se

New Member
Verified Defense Pro
we nailed another plank to keep a leaky boat afloat. How long will it gonna last? well, at least a leaky boat are better then no boat.
 

luccloud

New Member
Retiring or retaining the Fulcrums have their benefits and drawbacks. From a logistical and support viewpoint, retiring the Fulcrums would have been the perfect solution as it would have placed less strain on the support infrastructure. The retirement of the Fulcrums however would have left the RMAF's combat fleet to just 8 Hornets, 3-4 F-5Es and about 16 Hawk 200s. The 18 Su-30MKMs are only expected to reach OIC in a few months.
Which country is Malaysia's main threat? Is it Singapore, Vietnam, Thailand or China?
I mean if Malaysia AF main problem is budget constraint, why don't they go for some JF-17 and used the money saved for more F18/SU30?
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
Which country is Malaysia's main threat? Is it Singapore, Vietnam, Thailand or China?
I mean if Malaysia AF main problem is budget constraint, why don't they go for some JF-17 and used the money saved for more F18/SU30?
Officially, Malaysia faces no official threat from any neighbouring or regional state. Unofficially in the 90's Malaysia was very concerned about instability in Indonesia spilling over its borders. In the 80's, there was concern about the Vietnamese presence in Cambodia, and during the 70's, Malaysia in line with the ' domino theory 'was concerned about an overland threat from Vietnam. At the moment, Malaysia's main security concerns are cross border terrorism, security in the Straits of Melaka and mantaining its claims in the Spratleys.

The introduction of the JF-17 or other Chinese made aircraft into RMAF service remains a slim possibility at the moment as the RMAF remains Western oriented. Both the Fulcrum and MKM were political decisions and were not the RMAFs main choice. Though relations between Malaysia and China are at an all time high, Chinese defence companies despite offering generous payment terms, transfers of technology and license production, have had a hard time penetrating the Malaysian market. The only known Chinese product in service are a batch of army operated FN-6 MANPADS, fitted with Thales IFF transponders. According to an unconfirmed source, a Malaysian company is involved in a partnership with a Chinese and Pakistani company to develop a laser guided artillery round, theTamingsari, which was first displayed publicly in 2007 and is said to be a copy of the Russian Krasnapol.
 
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OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Which country is Malaysia's main threat?
Beyond the historically based answer by STRUM, it also depends on who you ask in Malaysia. There some difference in opinions amongst different groups of Malaysians. As a Singaporean, I'll rather not say more and let the different Malaysians explain it from their respective perspectives. :D

Is it Singapore, Vietnam, Thailand or China?
1. Short answer, focusing on immediate threats :-

Right now the largest realistic threat to Indonesia, Malaysia and Singapore is from non-state actors like terrorist groups. This of course includes the Jemaah Islamiyah, which is a regional organization (see link to latest news and there is also a current terror alert on the Malacca Strait).

2. Longer answer, looking at it from a geopolitical perspective :-

East Malaysia shares a long porous land border with Indonesia and a border with the oil rich state of Brunei (there is some over lapping EEZ claims); and West Malaysia also shares a border with Thailand (in the past, the Malayan communist party used to operate at that border). BTW, West Malaysia is connected to Singapore island by 2 causeways (for some years the was a dispute over the ownership of an island lighthouse was decided at the ICJ and other bilateral irritants that both parties are trying to resolve) and also shares maritime borders with Indonesia (and there is some maritime boundary disputes, some areas were resolved but others are still subject to ongoing discussions).

Further, there are also conflicting EEZ claims in the South China Sea (that relate to the claims in the Spratley islands) that also involves Philippines (on top of EEZ issues, some in the Philippines still claim Sabah and in the past some Philippine rebel groups have crossed over to conduct kidnaps), Vietnam, China and Taiwan. China has acceded to the ASEAN Treaty of Amity and Friendship - so in theory China does not threaten war but their claims are rather larger in scope that recognized by the others states.

I mean if Malaysia AF main problem is budget constraint, why don't they go for some JF-17 and used the money saved for more F18/SU30?
This issue has been discussed. May I suggest that you read the RMAF thread (at least the last 10 to 15 pages) - the Malaysians do not need more complexity in their logistics and are not very happy with their current situation (see also posts #14 and #46 in this thread, which deals with why I would not recommend the JF-17s even for a country like Iraq).

The Malaysians currently operate 8 F/A-18Ds (some say there are 7 active F/A-18Ds & 1 stored), 10 Mig-29Ns (from the original 18 - 2 crashed and they find it not economical to operate the other 6),18 Su-30MKMs, some F-5s and an assortment of other aircraft - please stop suggesting another aircraft type from a yet another country that does not have a current fighter export track record with the Malaysians - they could do with less types in such small numbers. You do realise that the Malaysians have to stock both American and Russian munitions now. To purchase the JF-17 would mean that they would have to stock Chinese munitions too.

As STURM said, RMAF remains Western oriented. Malaysia is a member of the FPDA and have tradition of training with the Australians and also with the Americans. As such, the West remain as attractive training partners, though the Malaysians do get a bit of help from the Indians with regards to the Sukhois and China has also offered to supply parts for the type but their influence is limited. ;)
 
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STURM

Well-Known Member
and a border with the oil rich state of Brunei (there is some over lapping EEZ claims);
I'm not sure about the EEZ dispute but the Brunei government recently dropped its claim on the Limbang salient.

some in the Philippines still claim Sabah and in the past some Philippine rebel groups have crossed over to conduct kidnaps),
There is still an official Philippine claim on Sabah based on the fact that Sabah was once part of the Sulu sultanate. The relationship between the Philippines and Malaysia, though now improved, wasn't very good in the 60's and 70's. Largely due to its claim on Sabah, the Philippines was strongly opposed to the formation of Malaysia in 1963. A report that broke in the Philippine press in 1968 of a camp being run in Luzon by an army Special Forces Group to train volunteers for infiltration into Sabah didn't help relations.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=P1M1AAAAIBAJ&sjid=ZyUMAAAAIBAJ&pg=2425,778037&hl=en

A major cause of concern for the Malaysian government during this period was the sabre rattling done by the Philippinos which involved the repeated intrusion of Sabahan airspace over Tawau by PAF Sabres. As OPSSG pointed out both countries have overlapping claims in the Sratleys, which led to an inccident in the late 90's when 2 RMAF Hawks on a training mission intercepted 2 PAF Broncos.

In a number of newspaper articles that ran in the 80's, Philippine politicans and military officers accused Malaysia of hosting MILF training camps in Sabah and providing the MILF with arms and funds. After a gap of almost a year, a small number of unarmed Malaysian military personnel are now back in Mindanao as part of the International Monitoring Team [IMT] to monitor the truce between the Philippine government and the MILF. In addition to leading the IMT, Malaysia has been hosting the peace talks in KL for a number of years.

http://www.worldbulletin.net/news_detail.php?id=54806

http://www.manilatimes.net/national/2008/sep/08/yehey/top_stories/20080908top3.html

http://www.philstar.com/Article.aspx?articleId=553541
 
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nevidimka

New Member
Due to its internal turmoil and the dire state of its Military, particularly its AF, the Philipines is now mum on this. However i very much doubt if the situation is reversed, Philipines would be sitting quiet as it is today. If Philipines AF improves very much in the future, we could possibly see a resurgence in their interest in Sabah, what with the increasing illegal population of Philipinos in Sabah by the day.

MAF would have to always be 1 step ahead of Philipines by stregth and numbers until they give up their claims on Sabah.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
Due to its internal turmoil and the dire state of its Military, particularly its AF, the Philipines is now mum on this. However i very much doubt if the situation is reversed, Philipines would be sitting quiet as it is today. If Philipines AF improves very much in the future, we could possibly see a resurgence in their interest in Sabah, what with the increasing illegal population of Philipinos in Sabah by the day.

MAF would have to always be 1 step ahead of Philipines by stregth and numbers until they give up their claims on Sabah.
As part of a deal offered, the Philippine government previously came close to dropping its claim but I think we've strayed off-top again and its best if we got back to RMAF or at least Malaysian aviation related topics ;)

The Jan. issue of AFM has nice photos of the MMEA Bombadier and the last RMAF MKM to be delivered. Does anyone know what FLIR is fitted to the MMEA Dauphin?
 

Awang se

New Member
Verified Defense Pro
There were a case sometime ago that an Indonesian Navy Vessel infiltrated Malaysian waters in a Straight of Malacca and detained a Malaysian fishing boat. When intercepted by the Malaysian Navy following the distress call by the fishing boat, The Indonesian vessel was found towing the fishing boat and it's crew back into the Indonesian waters. God knows what they intended to do. Luckily the boat was released when the RMN made an appearance. I think there were only this one case but who know....

Bendera, who threaten the invasion of Malaysia. The scary thing is, this nonsense gain a very large following. Most were compelled to join following the stories of mistreatments of the Indonesian workers in the country. Nothing came out of it. shame though, we may got a chance to test our MKM against live target.

Ambalat. This is the hottest spot of all the hotspots along the Malaysian border. RMN and TNI-AL Ships were minutes away from launching against each other with warships entering disputed waters and claiming the other side intruding it's sovereign territory. This story rarely made it into Malaysian media, but it's a hot topic in Indonesia. Obviously the Indonesian government were using this incidents to divert peoples attention away from some domestic problem.

Pattani province. The separatist rise again after being dormant for sometime( mainly because the Thai Security Forces provoke them in a first place). In the heat of the conflict, Thai gov accused Malaysia of giving shelter to the separatist. There's some tension and posturing but nothing happen out of it.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
Ambalat. This is the hottest spot of all the hotspots along the Malaysian border. RMN and TNI-AL Ships were minutes away from launching against each other with warships entering disputed waters and claiming the other side intruding it's sovereign territory. This story rarely made it into Malaysian media, but it's a hot topic in Indonesia. Obviously the Indonesian government were using this incidents to divert peoples attention away from some domestic problem.
Having lost Sipadan it is understandable the Indonesians reacted the way they did, towards what they percieve as high handed Malaysian attempts to ''seize'' Indonesian territory. As Dzirhan pointed out the problem is that our maps show Ambalat in our waters and the maps the Indonesians use clealy show Ambalat in their waters. And lets not forget that the loss of East Timor is still felt by many Indonesians so the last thing they want is to lose any mopre soverign territory.

We have to be thankful that no border clash occured as it would have led to grave economic and political consenquences, perhaps even a spilt in ASEAN. And of course there are other factors to be considered, like the fact that the RMAF is totally unprepared for hostilities..... :)
 

Awang se

New Member
Verified Defense Pro
And of course there are other factors to be considered, like the fact that the RMAF is totally unprepared for hostilities..... :)
Yep, but compare to TNI-AU with all of it's problems.....

A Possible replacement for MIG-29N
 
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