RAAF Stopgap air plan is 'dumb'

[Cootamundra]

Hi guys, this is interesting reading on the Australian problem. Couple of facts for you gents:

(1) On price, JSF (F35 CTOL) is now budgeted officially at $95 mil percopy - that's our dollars guys -Pentagon figures.

What's the source for this? Interested as we've been seeing all sorts of numbers...and like all of this discussion all we have at the moment are peoples opinions

(2) There is still domestic pressure in the US which opposes selling some elements of stealth to foreign governments - and this has not been entirely resolved - watch the limey experience.

My view on this is that most of these elements are being driven by corp greed more than national interest. We've discussed at length the benfits the US get from UK arms tech just as the UK (and others) get from US tech. If the UK issue is not sorted out then it will have a negative impact on the US/UK relationship and that is actually something that is worth more than corporate profits...I expect that the tech sharing issue will be dealth with in time

(3) Our Congress doesn't much like work on defence contracts going offshore. If you take a close look at the US defence industry - only 2 percent of purchases in the supply chain are placed outside the US. There are no congresional votes for jobs in Australia, guys - only here. So despite the best efforts of LM and the Federal Government here, there is still intense resistence to this occuring.

This is normal pork barrell politics! I understand and accept, in saying that Australian industry are looking at several hundred million dollars from the JSF program, not much in the grand scheme of things but not bad for a 3rd tier partner. Also you do know that much of the US military tech comes from foreign owned companies, think Rolls Royce or BAE. Austal from Perth are building the 2nd LCS, all they needed to do was to buy a shipyard

So, I hope you guys get the JSF, and I hope it fits the bill. But it will come at a price - more than some people on your side are saying, and there are risks around just what technology you will actually get access to. Fortunately, you have friends stateside who will root for you - but there's only so much we can do.

Happy holidays, guys.

Brosy

Thanks for the helping hand, but at 95 mill per copy I don't think we'll be interested! There are other not so attractive options but options nonetheless that will give us what we need. Next month we have to make the next decision as to whether to proceed or not...lets see what prices we're talking about then.

Coota

 

[Aussie Digger]

Rabbit-Proof Fence 9:10pm - 10:35pm BBC2 North West
Though rather worthy and self-important, director Phillip Noyce's superbly photographed true-life drama is not without impact as it throws light on a shameful period in Australia's past. In 1931, 14-year-old Molly (Everlyn Sampi) is interned by the Australian government as part of their policy to forcibly integrate "half-caste" Aborigines into white society (a policy which continued up until the 1970s).

I'm all for representative governments who repect law and rule in a consultative manner
but democracy is not automatically a good thing like austrailia for quite a while or like palastine and hamas - can lead to a sort of mob rule

That movie's also about as factually correct as U-571 too. But what's it got to do with this thread? We are discussing the RAAF's future force structure issues here. Not any "injustices" to Aboriginal peoples. Stick to the topic, please.

 

[Cootamundra]

That movie's also about as factually correct as U-571 too. But what's it got to do with this thread? We are discussing the RAAF's future force structure issues here. Not any "injustices" to Aboriginal peoples. Stick to the topic, please.

My thoughts exactly :unknown

 

[cherry]

I think that it is almost a foregone conclusion that RAAF will not be able to afford 100 x JSF. A mix of platforms is the most probable outcome so I think the real questions we should be asking ourselves is "what is the most suitable mix of platforms for RAAF?" JSF will probably be bought but in smaller numbers, and in addition to this something along the lines of either F-15 Strike Eagle, F/A-18E/F or Eurofighter Typhoon. A real problem that I think will disadvantage our fighter forces is the fact that people seem to be focussing on providing a fighter force that is equal to the one we currently have, perhaps even with fewer airframes. What is escaping everyone is that our edge over our immediate neighbours and region should be extended even further, we should be improving our ability to win a war, not keep it the same.

 

[rossfrb_1]

I think that it is almost a foregone conclusion that RAAF will not be able to afford 100 x JSF. A mix of platforms is the most probable outcome so I think the real questions we should be asking ourselves is "what is the most suitable mix of platforms for RAAF?" JSF will probably be bought but in smaller numbers, and in addition to this something along the lines of either F-15 Strike Eagle, F/A-18E/F or Eurofighter Typhoon. A real problem that I think will disadvantage our fighter forces is the fact that people seem to be focussing on providing a fighter force that is equal to the one we currently have, perhaps even with fewer airframes. What is escaping everyone is that our edge over our immediate neighbours and region should be extended even further, we should be improving our ability to win a war, not keep it the same.

I'm not sure anyone wants to keep the capability the same. It's just simple maths, currently $16 billion allocated to replace F-111/F-18 fleet, both of which in their current iterations are wearing out. JSF (slated replacement) is currently experiencing delivery delays, and projected price increases. Everyone is just throwing ideas around and trying to keep it within a realistic price/time frame.
I suspect many are thinking along the lines that you suggested, regards likely airframe mix.

cheers
rb

 

[Cootamundra]

JSF (slated replacement) is currently experiencing delivery delays, and projected price increases.

I'm not aware of there being any delivery delays, the project was running behind schedule (weight restriction issues) but they've been dealt with. The first aircraft will be ready to fly later this year. The real issue is the cost, originally people talked about it being a 40-50 million dollar aircraft, now others are saying anywhere between 50-100 million, personally I reckon it will be around 60 million....but hey, what the hell do any of us know!?

A mix will probably be the end result if the F-35 is too expensive. My vote goes to a bunch of new (cheap) F-15s, F-35s next decade and then some UCAV for deep strike. But personally I still reckon we'll get somewhere between 75-100 JSFs.

 

[Supe]

Hi Lo for me would be Typhoon/JSF

What sort of numbers would you advocate for both types?

Pros/cons of a Typhoon buy?

 

[Cootamundra]

What sort of numbers would you advocate for both types?

Pros/cons of a Typhoon buy?

25/75 Typhoon/F35

 

[Aussie Digger]

25/75 Typhoon/F35

My preference? 48x Typhoons, 48x F-35A/C's and 24x F-35B's...

 

[Cootamundra]

My preference? 48x Typhoons, 48x F-35A/C's and 24x F-35B's...

4 x sqdr of Typhoon for air defence
4 x sqdr of F-35 A/C's for bomb trucking
And 2 x sqdr for the Amphibs

I like it, a lot

The RAN would have true fleet air defence/strike capabilities in the form of fixed wing aircraft, this would see us have a TRUE capability increase and would be above and beyond the Scooters of the Melbourne era.

Do we need 4 sqdrs of Typhoon though? What about if funding was tight, would you sacrifice say 2 x sqrd? Or would you drop 1 of each?

 

[Aussie Digger]

4 x sqdr of Typhoon for air defence
4 x sqdr of F-35 A/C's for bomb trucking
And 2 x sqdr for the Amphibs

I like it, a lot

The RAN would have true fleet air defence/strike capabilities in the form of fixed wing aircraft, this would see us have a TRUE capability increase and would be above and beyond the Scooters of the Melbourne era.

Do we need 4 sqdrs of Typhoon though? What about if funding was tight, would you sacrifice say 2 x sqrd? Or would you drop 1 of each?

With those numbers you'd gain roughly 5 squadrons, (the same as now, though 6 Squadron RAAF has no real combat capability, and is mainly used to train F-111 pilots on the 'G' model, for the operational 1 Squadron), plus a couple of operational conversion units (OCU's).

Current RAAF squadrons operate 18 fastjets. With newer generation aircraft these conceivably, could be downsized to 12-16 aircraft...

 

[Whiskyjack]

With those numbers you'd gain roughly 5 squadrons, (the same as now, though 6 Squadron RAAF has no real combat capability, and is mainly used to train F-111 pilots on the 'G' model, for the operational 1 Squadron), plus a couple of operational conversion units (OCU's).

Current RAAF squadrons operate 18 fastjets. With newer generation aircraft these conceivably, could be downsized to 12-16 aircraft...

I agree with the mix, The Typhoons can also be used to launch cruise missiles from a standoff position while the F-35s are using stealth.

The question is, can the ADF afford 120 odd aircraft?

While I realise that this is not going to happen, 10-12 B-1s would be all the strike power that Australia would need!

Okay out of fantasy land now, it seems to me that the modern multi mission air force is almost out of the price range of many nations now. Even medium nations like Australia and Canada, will find it difficult (not impossible) to field such a force in the next 10-20 years, especially if the Governments can’t justify the cost to the voters!

[FONT=&quot]I think Australia will be better able to than Canada, but it is a big cost.[/FONT]

 

[rabs]

I could see some of these medium sized nations picking up some F-117s soon as the USAF phases them out. Its really no risk especailly in the hands of allies (canada, austrailia) using already obsolete stealth technology.

 

[Cootamundra]

With those numbers you'd gain roughly 5 squadrons, (the same as now, though 6 Squadron RAAF has no real combat capability, and is mainly used to train F-111 pilots on the 'G' model, for the operational 1 Squadron), plus a couple of operational conversion units (OCU's).

Current RAAF squadrons operate 18 fastjets. With newer generation aircraft these conceivably, could be downsized to 12-16 aircraft...

Sorry my mate, my fault, I was working off 12 aircraft per squadron. So with your numbers as you say we'd have a 4 full squadrons, 1 mixed squadron and 2x smaller squadrons for the Amphibs - so 6.5 or so....obviously some would be used for training and OCU purposes.

 

[The_Jet]

I could see some of these medium sized nations picking up some F-117s soon as the USAF phases them out. Its really no risk especailly in the hands of allies (canada, austrailia) using already obsolete stealth technology.

Howdy All

I can't see the Americans selling the F-117 to anyone

 

[Cootamundra]

Howdy All - I can't see the Americans selling the F-117 to anyone

Why would we want it! F-117 not even on the radar over here (excuse the pun)!

Nah Australia would rather take on some B-1b's than the Nighthawk thanks...

 

[Aussie Digger]

Just a quick message, unofficial word is that JASSM has won (again) the competition for the RAAF's FOSOW project. The details are supposed to be released "soon"...

 

[knightrider4]

Jassm

Evidently it has performed extremely well in the latest round of tests, long term I think it will be a better choice than SLAM-ER.

 

[cherry]

If RAAF do decide to purchase the JASSM, will we have the ability to upgrade these missiles to the JASSM-ER in the future? Also, is there a naval version, Mk41 VLS launched JASSM in the planning? If so, what is the likelyhood of RAN looking at a purchase of these?

 

[Magoo]

If RAAF do decide to purchase the JASSM, will we have the ability to upgrade these missiles to the JASSM-ER in the future?

No - different internals. The RAAF has chosen the JASSM, it just hasn't been announced yet. Both Boeing and LockMart officials have been informed as of early February.

Also, is there a naval version, Mk41 VLS launched JASSM in the planning? If so, what is the likelyhood of RAN looking at a purchase of these?

No - different fuselage shape and flight profile. The JASSM is less of a missile and more of an unmanned aircraft in shape, and wouldn't lend itself to the violence of a vertical launch. Allied naval units use the TLAM as their land attack missile, and Australia uses the Harpoon Block II from the Anzac frigates (or at least, will soon) and possibly from the four remaining Perry's if they receive the Block II upgrade as well. I hear there may be a land-attack version of the SM-2 in the wings as well?

Magoo