RAAF Stopgap air plan is 'dumb'

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Aussie Digger

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The rundown of the F-11 fleet, is no doubt "arranged"... I guess availability could be improved, but it would cost money. I'd rather see our funds put into more useful capability, than the relatively narrow role that the F-111 fills.

As to the FOSOW project, it was meant to be announced in December 05, but several things have probably put that on hold. 1 would be the new defence capability plan, which is to be released in Feb/March and also the outcome of the current US reviews on the JASSM weapon.

Funding has been sharply reduced for this weapon and the USN has refused to buy it, preferring SLAM-ER for it's F/A-18's and P-3C Orions... OTOH some new testing for the weapon has been very successful and if it's canned, some other weapon is going to be developed for the USAF, as they don't want the SLAM-ER...

I personally think SLAM-ER will probably be chosen. It's operational now and provides some capabilities (such as re-targetting inflight and moving target engagement capabilities) that JASSM won't have (at least initially). I think the strategy will be to acquire SLAM-ER (which will be easy to integrate on our Hornets and Orions) to provide capability now, with JASSM purchased when the F-35 comes into service...

As to TacTom, there's room on the ANZAC's for another 2x Mk 41 8 cell launchers. Theoretically then each ANZAC could carry 16 Tomahawks, which would be a useful capability, whether the Government would go for it is the hard part...
 

Cootamundra

New Member
Aussie Digger said:
As to TacTom, there's room on the ANZAC's for another 2x Mk 41 8 cell launchers. Theoretically then each ANZAC could carry 16 Tomahawks, which would be a useful capability, whether the Government would go for it is the hard part...
Wouldn't it be more likely that the ANZACs (if extended to 2 x Mk 41s) would take 8 x TacTom and 8 x SM-2 or ESSM? How much would another Mk 41 cost (per ship) I wonder? I wouldn't think the ship itself would need much more of an upgrade as they were designed to accomodate more than they are currently equipped with.

ANZACs with TacToms and then add an 8 cell Mk 41 to each of the collins and we would have all the long range penetration bases covered.

Also, with the new FFG upgrades isn't the plan to install 16 Mk 41 cells? Theoretically they could also have a TacTom, SM-2, ESSM mix...plenty of options, if only we had the $$$$s!

Cheers, Coota:(
 

rossfrb_1

Member
gf0012-aust said:
actually they're on average at between 87% and 93% availability. which wrt their age is very good. Red Flag was 100% availability, but that was a 6 section flight.
How many F-111s does this apply to?

cheers
rb
 
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Aussie Digger

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The FFG's are only being equipped with 1 Mk 41 VLS launcher. This has 8 cells and is being equipped with ESSM.

The ANZAC class can only handle a total of 2 Mk 41 VLS's, actually (it COULD have carried 3, however the RAN decided to go an put 2x Harpoon launchers where the 3rd Mk 41 VLS could have gone). I had forgotten about the new Harpoon launchers earlier.

They "might" be able to fit 1 or 2 more launchers in the empty space behind the bridge, (where Harpoon was supposed to go) but I doubt they'll bother. The RAN seems satisified with 32 ESSM's at the moment, and 8x TacTom hardly seems worth the effort...

If we were to get TacTom at all, I'd argue that they go on the AWD's only with 16-24 missiles incorporated on each vessel.
 

Cootamundra

New Member
Aussie Digger said:
The FFG's are only being equipped with 1 Mk 41 VLS launcher. This has 8 cells and is being equipped with ESSM.
AD, I thought that the RAN was looking at an upgrade to SM-2 as well, will these only be for the new AWDs and not the FFG? I could've sworn the FFG was to be equipped with SM-2s, after all they have older SM-1s now don't they? Also why the hell would we only want an 8 cell VLS when according to the OHP specs up to 40 SM-1/Harpoon can be held in the GMLS Mk 13 launcher/magazine! Wouldn't this see us have a decrease in capability?

Sorry for the naval questions on a RAAF (airforce) thread...Coota
 

seantheaussie

New Member
Cootamundra said:
AD, I thought that the RAN was looking at an upgrade to SM-2 as well, will these only be for the new AWDs and not the FFG? I could've sworn the FFG was to be equipped with SM-2s
Agree
Cootamundra said:
Also why the hell would we only want an 8 cell VLS when according to the OHP specs up to 40 SM-1/Harpoon can be held in the GMLS Mk 13 launcher/magazine! Wouldn't this see us have a decrease in capability?
32 ESSM in vls + 40 missiles in mk13
 

cherry

Banned Member
They "might" be able to fit 1 or 2 more launchers in the empty space behind the bridge, (where Harpoon was supposed to go) but I doubt they'll bother. The RAN seems satisified with 32 ESSM's at the moment, and 8x TacTom hardly seems worth the effort...

If we were to get TacTom at all, I'd argue that they go on the AWD's only with 16-24 missiles incorporated on each vessel.
So if RAN only being able to fit a handful of TacToms on both the Collins Class and the ANZAC frigates is not quite worth the effort, then what other options are available to ADF to deliver something like TacTom? My main problems with the future plans are as follows:

- I don't believe either JASSM or SLAM-ER mounted on F/A-18 comes close to filling the gap left by the F-111, hence why I believe it is worth looking at something like TacTom.
- I think anything less than 96 VLS for the new AWD would be unforgivable and only 16-24 VLS dedicated to TacTom is not enough, at least 40 VLS for TacTom is needed per platform considering we will only be getting 3 of them.
- The F-35 at this stage cannot deliver something like TacTom. Even with the possibility of the JASSM-ER being built, this weapon may not end up on this platform.

What other "affordable" options are there for ADF delivering stand-off weapons?
 
A

Aussie Digger

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Cootamundra said:
AD, I thought that the RAN was looking at an upgrade to SM-2 as well, will these only be for the new AWDs and not the FFG? I could've sworn the FFG was to be equipped with SM-2s, after all they have older SM-1s now don't they? Also why the hell would we only want an 8 cell VLS when according to the OHP specs up to 40 SM-1/Harpoon can be held in the GMLS Mk 13 launcher/magazine! Wouldn't this see us have a decrease in capability?

Sorry for the naval questions on a RAAF (airforce) thread...Coota
We are getting SM-2 for the FFG's (probably). They have to be modified to be fired from the Mk 13 rail launcher (as opposed to their normal VL). Provided this goes smoothly, they are supposed to enter service in 2009.

Each FFG should by then boast 32x SM-2 Block IIIA, 32x ESSM, 8x Harpoon Block II, 1x 76mm gun, 1x Phalanx CIWS, 2x triple torpedo launchers (with MU-90) 4x 0.50cal HMG's fitted with "mini-typhoon" targetting systems, plus the Seahawk helo with MU-90 and a new "medium" machine gun (in place of 7.62mm Mag 58). They will be pretty well armed then...

As to TacTom, why would 16-24 per AWD not be enough? It's not Australia Government policy to maintain large warstocks of ammunition/munitions etc anyway. If more ships were capable of firing TacTom they wouldn't actually have any on board anyway. At present our entire stock of Harpoon missiles for instance, is deployed with the fleet (or will be when all ANZAC's are fitted with Harpoon).

How many do you think we're likely to fire anyway? During the GW2 the USN "only" fired about 300. How many could you see us firing?
 

Cootamundra

New Member
Aussie Digger said:
We are getting SM-2 for the FFG's (probably). They have to be modified to be fired from the Mk 13 rail launcher (as opposed to their normal VL). Provided this goes smoothly, they are supposed to enter service in 2009.

Each FFG should by then boast 32x SM-2 Block IIIA, 32x ESSM, 8x Harpoon Block II, 1x 76mm gun, 1x Phalanx CIWS, 2x triple torpedo launchers (with MU-90) 4x 0.50cal HMG's fitted with "mini-typhoon" targetting systems, plus the Seahawk helo with MU-90 and a new "medium" machine gun (in place of 7.62mm Mag 58). They will be pretty well armed then...
So let me get this straight, the new upgrade will include the VLS and the old Mk13 launcher! Am I right or should you issue the dunce cap?!

If so, then I agree 100% the re-armed, upgraded Adelaide/Perry's would be worth keeping around for awhile yet.

As to the AWDs and 16-24 TacToms, I would think that if each ship was fully loaded that would be more than enough, the rest of the space would by necessity be taken up with SM-2s, ESSM and potentially VL Harpoon.

Back to the original thread topic. I'm still hoeful that we can get our F-35s and that they won't end up costing the earth. But if we do encounter too many more bumps then I would be all for the F-15 a la Singapore/Sth Korea as an interim.

Cheers, Coota
 
A

Aussie Digger

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Cootamundra said:
So let me get this straight, the new upgrade will include the VLS and the old Mk13 launcher! Am I right or should you issue the dunce cap?!
Cheers, Coota
Yes, the Mk 13 launcher is being retained and a new Mk 41 VLS system installed.

Getting back on topic, I can't see the F-35 being bought in the numbers the Defence Minister and Chief of Airforce have been boasting of. This will push p the price, and probably lower capability.

Perhaps our JSF's will end becoming a "silver bullet" force. Wouldn't THAT be ironic???
 

Whiskyjack

Honorary Moderator / Defense Professional / Analys
Verified Defense Pro
Aussie Digger said:
Yes, the Mk 13 launcher is being retained and a new Mk 41 VLS system installed.

Getting back on topic, I can't see the F-35 being bought in the numbers the Defence Minister and Chief of Airforce have been boasting of. This will push p the price, and probably lower capability.

Perhaps our JSF's will end becoming a "silver bullet" force. Wouldn't THAT be ironic???

A bit more than Ironic! While I admit a UCAV and Cruise Missile may be adequate in a strike role, how will 50 odd F-35s be able to defend Australian air space?

Maybe F-18E or Typhoon? and have a 50/50 force structure?

Interesting conundrum.
 

cherry

Banned Member
How many do you think we're likely to fire anyway? During the GW2 the USN "only" fired about 300. How many could you see us firing?
Yes but USN also had US Airforce long range B-52, F-117, B-1B and B2 firing missiles and dropping bombs. Our probable meagre force of F-35 won't be able to do this for us, which is one of the main points of this thread. So I do believe that short range F-35 (and very few of them) along with only 16-24 TacToms on only 3 AWD is not sufficient to cover the F-111 long range bombing capability.
 

knightrider4

Active Member
One must remember as well that the United States has the benefit of their exceptional ISR constellation to provide them first class targeting data.
 

Cootamundra

New Member
Aussie Digger said:
Yes, the Mk 13 launcher is being retained and a new Mk 41 VLS system installed.
Right, thanks for clearing that up ;-0

Aussie Digger said:
Getting back on topic, I can't see the F-35 being bought in the numbers the Defence Minister and Chief of Airforce have been boasting of. This will push p the price, and probably lower capability.

Perhaps our JSF's will end becoming a "silver bullet" force. Wouldn't THAT be ironic???
Bottomline is that no one knows how much the F-35 is going to end up costing, ok, in all likely hood it is going to be more than the original $40 million per aircraft, but, all of us are just poking away in the wind trying to understand how many of these new aircraft we can get. For the life of me what I really can't understand is why so many people question the decision makers from the RAAF and ADF top brass, surely they won't allow us to have a reduced level of capability solely to stay with the F-35 choice. Or is the political pressure really that strong that the new JSF platform will be bought no matter what?

Like you, I don't believe that we will get the full number of 100 JSFs. Instead we will get either 70-80 of them along with an a UAV platform for maritime strike. OR, we won't get JSF at all and Boeing will be knocking down our door to sell us a bunch of latest edition F-15s ala Singapore....OR, if there is a schedule delay (rather than an extreme cost issue) we might end up with some F-15s and the rest F-35s - which in some regards may not be a bad option at all.

But for my mind I don't have any issues with the choice of the JSF nor am I too alarmed at this stage about the 'potential' for an increase in expense. Until we see the final quote NONE of us will know.

Cheers, Coota
 

Dick Cruthers

New Member
Re: Price for JSF

Coota's right when it comes to pricing for JSF. It's a feast. According to recent reports on the net, seems the Pentagon is now using a price of $ US 95 million per copy (USAF variant - CTOL) for planning purposes. Probably they know something the rest of us only suspect! I reckon the F-22 looks safer and better every day.

As for the Aussies, if you stay aboard JSF, you can expect to pay a hellavalot more than you first thought (like 2 to 3 times) or you'll be gettin a lot less airframes!
 

Cootamundra

New Member
Re: Price for JSF

Dick Cruthers said:
Coota's right when it comes to pricing for JSF. It's a feast. According to recent reports on the net, seems the Pentagon is now using a price of $ US 95 million per copy (USAF variant - CTOL) for planning purposes. Probably they know something the rest of us only suspect! I reckon the F-22 looks safer and better every day.

As for the Aussies, if you stay aboard JSF, you can expect to pay a hellavalot more than you first thought (like 2 to 3 times) or you'll be gettin a lot less airframes!
Dick, what I'm saying is that NO one knows what the final price tag will be, sure its going to be more than $40 mill but $90-95 mill seems unlikely, why, cause if it gets that high NO-ONE outside of the US will buy it. My point is that people speculate on the web all the time. For us here is Aus we all bitch and moan about how much the JSF will cost when really we have ferk-all idea!

I for one am happy to trust that;
a) our ADF planners have factored this in and if it gets to exxy then we'll go down another route (i.e F-15)
b) they choose the JSF for a range of very good reasons, in particular becuase -
  • the F-111 PIGs are falling to pieces (however much this pains me to say it)
  • the Wedgtail and Tanker force multipliers are on their way
  • the JSF will be the only other 5th Gen 'stealth' aircraft in the world, sure it may have some problems in certain situations against a Rafale or (maybe) a Typhoon however it will be hands down the BEST aircraft in our region, thereby restoring the RAAF to the top of the tree capability wise
  • the single engine has beaten a range of reliability tests and will be one of the best in the business
  • the intoduction of weapons like the SDB will give it incresed punch
In short, the JSF if it can be purchased at the right price should see the RAAF well placed until UCAVs become common place.

Coota
 

rossfrb_1

Member
Cootamundra said:
Right, thanks for clearing that up ;-0



{snip}, surely they won't allow us to have a reduced level of capability solely to stay with the F-35 choice. Or is the political pressure really that strong that the new JSF platform will be bought no matter what?

{snip}
Cheers, Coota
Whilst the Howard government is in power I suspect that it 'just has' to be JSF all the way. because that is what Howard/Hill have mandated. A backdown now or in the future is unthinkable since none of the pollies, et al have ever shown the sort of balls needed to make such a decision, because none of them have ever been prepared to take the blame for anything. Defense has been so politicised, that it seems few big brass would be prepared to tell the pollies the bleeding obvious.
In addition, whoever makes the final call on numbers of aircraft bought will have so many 'experts' in their ear, all with competing ideologies, loyalties and opinions. I'm sure there are advocates in DoD who think 50 JSF would be more than ample.
By all accounts the new Armidale patrol boats were lucky to end up with a 25mm canon, as some didn't even want them armed with that.

cheers
rb
 

rossfrb_1

Member
Re: Price for JSF

Cootamundra said:
{snip}
I for one am happy to trust that;
a) our ADF planners have factored this in and if it gets to exxy then we'll go down another route (i.e F-15)



b) they choose the JSF for a range of very good reasons, in particular becuase -

  • the F-111 PIGs are falling to pieces (however much this pains me to say it)
  • {snip}
  • Coota
I was under the impression that the F-111 airframe fatigue issues had been well addressed.
Spare parts are not supposed to be an issue as I'd read that the RAAF had picked up heaps of spares on the cheap when the USAF had retired their F-111s.
Are there new issues that have arisen?

I keep reading about reliability problems with the F-111s, but this does not tally with other things that I've read.
Apparently the F-111 airframes are better tested and certified than the F-18s.
cheers
rb



 

Cootamundra

New Member
rossfrb_1 said:
Whilst the Howard government is in power I suspect that it 'just has' to be JSF all the way. because that is what Howard/Hill have mandated. A backdown now or in the future is unthinkable since none of the pollies, et al have ever shown the sort of balls needed to make such a decision, because none of them have ever been prepared to take the blame for anything. Defense has been so politicised, that it seems few big brass would be prepared to tell the pollies the bleeding obvious.
Bollocks, with due respect rb Hill has been one of best DefMins in awhile and Howard as much as he is the master of wedge politics believes strongly in Australia maintaining an edge against regional powers. Also he is a stong advocate (as is Hill, Downer and to a lesser extent Costello) of Australia as a middle power. I don't believe that they would proceed with the purchase just so that they wouldn't have to back down.

rossfrb_1 said:
In addition, whoever makes the final call on numbers of aircraft bought will have so many 'experts' in their ear, all with competing ideologies, loyalties and opinions. I'm sure there are advocates in DoD who think 50 JSF would be more than ample. By all accounts the new Armidale patrol boats were lucky to end up with a 25mm canon, as some didn't even want them armed with that. cheers rb
Fair point, there are advocates of many things but at the end of the day it is officers (airmen) and the National Security Council that make the decisions, not Carlo Kopp, not any of us 'speculators' but guys that get paid to analyse and make a choice. As I've stated before I wouldn't have a problem with a smaller mix of JSFs and some F-15s or a solid UCAV platform.

Coota
 

Dick Cruthers

New Member
Coota, you may be interested in this cut from another forum: Contributor is KurtPlummer

Posted Sun 15 January 2006 20:53
>>
That's nearly three times the original budget price for the F-35.

It should be pretty obvious as to why the numbers are falling back!
>>

Self fulfilling prophecy because Lunchmeat (Baloney Inc.) almost certainly 'bought in' to the program with technology base investments in ways that could only be recovered through the F-22 as much as F-35 padded long term production and particularly FMS sales.

That won't happen now because as the USAF (lynchpin sale with 2,400 originally planned, 1,763 'officially needed' and probably fewer than the 1,250 now rumored as likely) numbers fall, it's center variant profit margin will cause the 'cousin' airframes (both more expensive) scalar economics to go to heck as well.

And pre-critical-mass failing all three together (for U.S. service) will so spike the FMS prices as to drive the FMS '4,000 export airframes' completely away.

And so it is that 'joint' was not an economic sales point. But a point of doom. Because the aircraft are not COMMON in their basing modes. And the structural diversity that derives from that also drives /down/ the minimum threshold inventory number by which any one service will stick it out to buy a 'slightly more expensive' variant and not compromise the others.

Of course the idiots abroad who form the Tier-2 and 3 customer base will have another shock, much as the Brits are doing with their failure to secure FACO level access to 'all aspects' of VLO technology. So that they can hand it all over to EADS/Thales.

In that stealth technology which _cannot be_ made tamper-proof enough to let USAF level VLO be exported as a technology base will almost certainly mean several orders of magnitude increase in on-plane signature values as well.

And this leaves you with a bomber that is less 'capable' (unengaged by as much as superior to any opfor platform) than existing Gen-4 fighter options which are at least largely paid for in their 60-80 million dollar 'honest sticker shock' of MSRP.

With the the Neurone and similar UCAV having a clear road ahead now that we've cancelled J-UCAS like the utter idiots we are. It becomes likely that the future of everyone-but-U.S. airpower will be a hilo split between manned combat controlers. And unmanned renta-pylons.

Cruise with landing gear.

And we have absolutely _no_ excuse for not seeing this coming.

Given that CBO were predicting 70+ as early as 1997 and Mike O'Hanlon was saying 65 USAF and 77 USN in his 'go slow and preplan significant cuts' paper on the subject in 2001.

Futher given that we _knew_ what JDAM was in 1994 when this whole pork-politics mess started and were already looking at things like the Alenia Diamondback and Aussie Awadi options to further '1 plane, TWO disparate target sets as much as aimpoints within them' multiply the effectiveness of tacair; there is no excuse for not taking into account what MMTD and GBU-38 would eventuate as: weapons which multiply by 4 or more what the existing tacair fleet can 'Both pylons today I tell'ya!' do.

And that is the petard by which a selfserving Congress will hoist the USAF when their little cash cow gets mad heifer disease and has to be put down.

"Divide your inventory (Mission Element Needs) Day-1:Raid-1 requirement by the number of aimpoints you can REACH, without EA or DEAD route corridors, using small slingbomb techniques from 20-30miles or more. And maybe, if you're nice, we'll divide THAT number by half and split amongst the three of you."

Which would still be a significant total number of jets (probably 500+, maybe as much as 750-900) IF men could land on carriers with any kind of UPT and no carqual currency.

Like a UCAV does routinely, with JPALS.

But they can't. And their inability to do so is depriving us of not just a more capable airpower modus. But one which is sufficiently cheap as to pump inventory counts right back up to F-16/18 levels.

As such condensing our 'pgm-same, landing mode diverse' airpower into a single force which can deploy anywhere, land or sea, without hyperextending the Navy in particular (in terms of cruise length or available 'fill' squadrons to generate their 7 carrier emergency deployment force) must be the way we look ahead.

And all I can say is it's about damn time. This nation does not need three airforces, half of which cannot deploy to an access denied theater, the rest of which cannot do FTSF beyond about 400nm thanks to a tanking problem.

Because if they hadn't been playing merc enforcer to a bunch of Arab Oil Sheiks, two airliners wouldn't have crashed into civillian targets here at home. And if they 5th, 7th and 6th fleets hadn't been 'too busy' to sail the 2,500nm that separates their coverage overlaps. We might have had men on the ground and airoverhead. 9/15 instead of 10/10.

It is only to be hoped that, for this alone, the Pilot Mafia will be faced by a RICO based attack on their egotistical presumption of cancelling everything to maintain cockpit airpower as a Federal Dole.

And that the aftermath of Iraq and the wiretapping/secret prison debacle as well as the economic default of the JSF program if not America as a whole will, collectively, so completely ruin ALL the armed forces for retention and modernization funding.

That they will _NOT_ get 'just one more generation, pleeeeeaze!' of manned airpower waste.

But will be forced to make uninhabitteds work.

Or do without.

How ironic then, that what was advertised as a cheaper-by-bulk manned system is in fact going to finally put a stake in manned aviations undead heart.

By being too expensive for what it tried to do all at once.


KPl.

Posts: 173 | Registered: Mon 22 November 2004
 
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