PRC Peoples Liberation Army Navy

[Toptob]

I haven't seen anything about the Chinese developing a VTOL aircraft either. And if they did would it be smart to "clone" the F-35B? No doubt it is a marvelous machine, but it's still a bag of compromises because it had to have commonality with the A and C versions. If one would design the best VTOL aircraft they could without compromising, would it look like the F-35B?

And would STOVL operations be any better than STOBAR? It would be interesting to see the Chinese develop a VTOL aircraft, but it would be better to operate them with the Type 075 LHD's. So the 001 and 002 would still be surplus to requirements.

 

[John Fedup]

I haven't seen anything about the Chinese developing a VTOL aircraft either. And if they did would it be smart to "clone" the F-35B? No doubt it is a marvelous machine, but it's still a bag of compromises because it had to have commonality with the A and C versions. If one would design the best VTOL aircraft they could without compromising, would it look like the F-35B?

And would STOVL operations be any better than STOBAR? It would be interesting to see the Chinese develop a VTOL aircraft, but it would be better to operate them with the Type 075 LHD's. So the 001 and 002 would still be surplus to requirements.

STOVL ( America class, Type 075) ships can be smaller than STOBAR so yes they are better options. As for a VTOL jet being developed by China, clone was a poor wording choice (my bad). A clean sheet design without compromises would be China’s best option and they have the money. IMO, the USMC’s only hope for a Harrier replacement was being part of the JSF project due to politics and money. In hindsight, a bespoke VTOL design might have been cheaper for the three services and the USAF and USN could have seen better outcomes wrt kinematic performance.

 

[weaponwh]

Howabout you back this up with some sources then.

its common for defense company to have requirement such as siprnet, SCIF lab. etc, they also need high level of firewall for potential adversary intrusion. i would imagine company like lockheed spend more on cybersecurity compare to say Ford.

Sensitive Compartmented Information Facility Use (SCIF) Policy

www.gsa.gov

SCIFs, clean rooms, secure facilities present unique challenges for contractors - News | Building Congress & Exchange

Almost every Christmas, the skills of a little-known division of Lewis Contractors shine during a novel holiday festivity. At the company’s holiday party (when such gatherings are permitted), organizers post a periodic table on one wall and place stickers beside element names to show the types...

www.bcebaltimore.org

SIPRNet - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

'

DOD Working to Improve Cybersecurity for Its Industrial Base

With criminals and nefarious state actors intent on stealing intellectual property or taking down networks, cybersecurity is a huge concern for the Department of Defense.

www.defense.gov

Facility Clearances

Entities (including companies and academic institutions) engaged in providing goods or services to the U.S. government involving access to or creation of classified information may be granted a Facility Clearance (FCL). Mandated by the guidelines set forth in the National Industrial Security Program (NISP), the Defense Counterintelligence and Security Agency (DCSA) processes, issues, and monitors the continued eligibility of entities for an FCL.

 

[Toptob]

STOVL ( America class, Type 075) ships can be smaller than STOBAR so yes they are better options. As for a VTOL jet being developed by China, clone was a poor wording choice (my bad). A clean sheet design without compromises would be China’s best option and they have the money. IMO, the USMC’s only hope for a Harrier replacement was being part of the JSF project due to politics and money. In hindsight, a bespoke VTOL design might have been cheaper for the three services and the USAF and USN could have seen better outcomes wrt kinematic performance.

You're right of course, and hindsight is 20/20. But I suspect that they could've gotten away with keeping the commonality aspect to the avionics and sensors. As it seems to me that designing, building, operating and maintaining physical air frames is much less complicated than what they've done with the F-35 program electronics wise. Now China gets that hindsight for free, but they wouldn't be suffering the shenanigans the companies involved with the F-35 pulled (or someone would've found themselves in a prison camp very quickly). I wonder what's a bigger impediment on development, Chinese top down rigidity or Western free market grift?!?


And @weaponwh not to be unkind, but what rock have you been sleeping under? It is pretty well known that many high end defense projects have been infiltrated by and suffered espionage from Chinese sources. Here, I gave google a cursory glance:

Chinese Businessman Pleads Guilty of Spying on F-35 and F-22
https://www.inss.org.il/publication/china-espionage/
New Snowden Documents Reveal Chinese Behind F-35 Hack
Confucius Institutes: China’s Trojan Horse
Chinese espionage in the United States - Wikipedia

The collective "West" has been scrambling for years because our political establishment, defense sector and intelligentsia have been infiltrated on every level. Of course measures where in place and new ones have been and are being introduced, but an immeasurable amount of damage has already been done. So yes you're right that it's not easy to steal defense designs, but it also is a fact that China has succeeded in stealing many of these already.

 

[weaponwh]

You're right of course, and hindsight is 20/20. But I suspect that they could've gotten away with keeping the commonality aspect to the avionics and sensors. As it seems to me that designing, building, operating and maintaining physical air frames is much less complicated than what they've done with the F-35 program electronics wise. Now China gets that hindsight for free, but they wouldn't be suffering the shenanigans the companies involved with the F-35 pulled (or someone would've found themselves in a prison camp very quickly). I wonder what's a bigger impediment on development, Chinese top down rigidity or Western free market grift?!?


And @weaponwh not to be unkind, but what rock have you been sleeping under? It is pretty well known that many high end defense projects have been infiltrated by and suffered espionage from Chinese sources. Here, I gave google a cursory glance:

Chinese Businessman Pleads Guilty of Spying on F-35 and F-22
https://www.inss.org.il/publication/china-espionage/
New Snowden Documents Reveal Chinese Behind F-35 Hack
Confucius Institutes: China’s Trojan Horse
Chinese espionage in the United States - Wikipedia

The collective "West" has been scrambling for years because our political establishment, defense sector and intelligentsia have been infiltrated on every level. Of course measures where in place and new ones have been and are being introduced, but an immeasurable amount of damage has already been done. So yes you're right that it's not easy to steal defense designs, but it also is a fact that China has succeeded in stealing many of these already.

there is no such thing as 100% proof cybersecurity, but the core tech is develop under secure facility, and its not connected to outside internet. CUI is easier to penetrate compare intrusion to spirnet. there probably tens thousands cyberattack each year, so the chance of 1 or 2 success is highly possible. the point is, its difficult to steal tech due to capability of US cyberdefense/policy/SCIF/SPIRnet etc, BUT not impossible. There just no way defense company would left classfied data in a uncontrolled environment with access to outside network(unless negligence), they would get into serious trouble for that.

 

[Toptob]

there is no such thing as 100% proof cybersecurity, but the core tech is develop under secure facility, and its not connected to outside internet. CUI is easier to penetrate compare intrusion to spirnet. there probably tens thousands cyberattack each year, so the chance of 1 or 2 success is highly possible. the point is, its difficult to steal tech due to capability of US cyberdefense/policy/SCIF/SPIRnet etc, BUT not impossible. There just no way defense company would left classfied data in a uncontrolled environment with access to outside network(unless negligence), they would get into serious trouble for that.

Look I don't know if you're trolling or not. But... As I said, it's well known that there have been significant and painful breaches in security by Chinese spying efforts. You can keep talking about cybersecurity and whatnot, but no defense is infallible. And it doesn't matter if your computer is connected to the internet or not. The game we're talking about is intelligence, and both China and the US spend ungodly amounts of money on both intelligence and counter intelligence operations.

Cyber operations are but one part of this game, and honestly it's not even that significant for intelligence. Cyber security is more about keeping your networks safe and working because so many parts of our society are now dependent on these networks (i.e. the electrical grid, or traffic controls). Any self respecting data manager would never keep real sensitive information on a networked machine, what you're talking about has been standard procedure for as long as networks have existed.

You don't steal information by "hacking" that's for TV shows to spur the imagination of people who never think about intelligence operations. In real life you steal information by performing intelligence operations like the famous honey trap operation performed by the Chinese spy "Fang Fang". You let people infiltrate organizations, or you bribe or manipulate a target into providing you with information. HUMINT is still the core of intelligence work, and China is very good at it. For example, there are sizable Chinese diaspora all over the world. And many of these people can be pressured, or persuaded to provide intelligence.

So to think that China wouldn't be able to steal secrets because there's cybersecurity and protocols, just means you don't understand how spies go about stealing secrets.

 

[ngatimozart]

I haven't seen anything about the Chinese developing a VTOL aircraft either. And if they did would it be smart to "clone" the F-35B? No doubt it is a marvelous machine, but it's still a bag of compromises because it had to have commonality with the A and C versions. If one would design the best VTOL aircraft they could without compromising, would it look like the F-35B?

And would STOVL operations be any better than STOBAR? It would be interesting to see the Chinese develop a VTOL aircraft, but it would be better to operate them with the Type 075 LHD's. So the 001 and 002 would still be surplus to requirements.

There are advantages to having a STOVL capability at sea, especially if you are operating amphib forces. The USMC have seen that and the PLAN and PLANAF will have noticed the USMC and others noticing that. The real question is are the PLA able to build such a capability? The technology is a known and is proven, so they know the science of it and they know that the engineering can be done. They most likely have acquired enough data through various means to design and build a technology demonstrator of their own. Whether they have or not, is not publicly known. Their biggest problem will be the powerplant and even though they are making advances in their engine technology, they still have a way to go with their metallurgy. They're behind the Russians who are behind the Americans, but not far behind the British and French. The Chinese metallurgical disciplines are catching up though and at some stage they will be just behind the Americans, if the political situation within the PRC doesn't get out of hand.

 

[Toptob]

@ngatimozart what would be the optimal layout for such a craft? Would it be more like the Harrier with moving nozzles, or something more like the F-35B with a lift-fan? How difficult is adding something like a lift-fan to a turbine. And how difficult is it to add swiveling nozzles to an engine?

In any case, I don't see VTOL aircraft as being very suitable for real air combat. So if I consider the goal would be some sort of fast air ground support. Wouldn't it be ideal to make something like an attack helicopter like aircraft with tilt-rotors be much simpler while still being fast and capable of vertical operations?

 

[ngatimozart]

@ngatimozart what would be the optimal layout for such a craft? Would it be more like the Harrier with moving nozzles, or something more like the F-35B with a lift-fan? How difficult is adding something like a lift-fan to a turbine. And how difficult is it to add swiveling nozzles to an engine?

In any case, I don't see VTOL aircraft as being very suitable for real air combat. So if I consider the goal would be some sort of fast air ground support. Wouldn't it be ideal to make something like an attack helicopter like aircraft with tilt-rotors be much simpler while still being fast and capable of vertical operations?

Well if it was me building it, I would go with a F-35B layout. Get more horizontal thrust that way. Thrust vectoring isn't a large problem with modern fighters having it so it's not an unknown. Likewise, the lift fan on the F-35B is an engineering problem because the technology isn't new. What's new is how the two are controlled to work in tandem, so that becomes a software problem. The PRC have lots of bright young things who have studied both computer science and engineering. This would be a task for them.

 

[Stampede]

View attachment 49397

SCMP put another photo on the new Type 003 Carrier being prepared for launch ceremony. By roughly look at the picture, it is seems the conditions of the carrier progress is bit advance then previous photo I put above (which also from SCMP).

Off course 2-3 years scheddule for operational level still expected, base on the preparation for operational time line after launching, that Shandong doing before. This is on STOBAR carrier, thus for their first CATOBAR I suspect slightly longer then Shandong timeline before, at least.

I take it that CSSC stands for the China State Shipbuilding Corporation.
Interesting the combined European / Chinese characters painted on the big crane thingy!

Maybe a pitch to the international aircraft carrier market of the yards shipbuilding capability.
Could they do a quote for the RAN



Cheers S

 

[ngatimozart]

I take it that CSSC stands for the China State Shipbuilding Corporation.
Interesting the combined European / Chinese characters painted on the big crane thingy!

Maybe a pitch to the international aircraft carrier market of the yards shipbuilding capability.
Could they do a quote for the RAN

Cheers S

There's always has to be one who thinks he's a comedian. Me thinks 1 hour doubling around the perimeter of the parade ground,, in full kit holding his rifle above his held yelling "I am not a comedian" at the top of his voice may cure him of such urges.

When I was at HMNZS Tamaki doing my RNZN BCT the GIs had some rocks that they used to encourage recalcitrant offenders. said offenders had to double time around the parade ground holding said rocks above their head showing the rocks the sights. Tamaki was situated in a quite scenic part of Auckland's North Shore which is also one of Auckland's more well to do areas because it looks out over the Hauraki Gulf. There were 3 rocks and each was progressively weightier than the other. If that failed, then they had a 4.5 in shell case filled with concrete. That was one real heavy case of encouragement. Of course such methods of encouragement are very much frowned upon today. Some people just have no sense of humour.

 

[weaponwh]

Look I don't know if you're trolling or not. But... As I said, it's well known that there have been significant and painful breaches in security by Chinese spying efforts. You can keep talking about cybersecurity and whatnot, but no defense is infallible. And it doesn't matter if your computer is connected to the internet or not. The game we're talking about is intelligence, and both China and the US spend ungodly amounts of money on both intelligence and counter intelligence operations.

Cyber operations are but one part of this game, and honestly it's not even that significant for intelligence. Cyber security is more about keeping your networks safe and working because so many parts of our society are now dependent on these networks (i.e. the electrical grid, or traffic controls). Any self respecting data manager would never keep real sensitive information on a networked machine, what you're talking about has been standard procedure for as long as networks have existed.

You don't steal information by "hacking" that's for TV shows to spur the imagination of people who never think about intelligence operations. In real life you steal information by performing intelligence operations like the famous honey trap operation performed by the Chinese spy "Fang Fang". You let people infiltrate organizations, or you bribe or manipulate a target into providing you with information. HUMINT is still the core of intelligence work, and China is very good at it. For example, there are sizable Chinese diaspora all over the world. And many of these people can be pressured, or persuaded to provide intelligence.

So to think that China wouldn't be able to steal secrets because there's cybersecurity and protocols, just means you don't understand how spies go about stealing secrets.

how does china breach a SCIF facility, when its not connected to outside world? i can understand breach to company network, but those data are NOT classfied, its usually CUI, confidential, or proprietary, furthermore, defense company has high level of cybersecurity, so its not easy to breach the network. US has one of the best cyberdefense/offense capability, while it can block most cyberattack, but once a while there will 1 or 2 get through, and its those get through got into the headline. can't be 100% proof all the time.
as for HUMINT, yes it exist, but compare to amount of defense contractor vs actual insider threat is very very small. its common to have extensive background check on defense contractors. thats what dcsa is for.
if the person of interest has strong tie to china, then they won't be able to work as defense contractor. however, there is no 100% proof, its always the one got through get the headlines. no body want to risk everything and lock up in jail, so the chance of insider threat are small, but exist.

Mission, Vision & Values

Through vetting, industry engagement, education, and counterintelligence and insider threat support, secure the trustworthiness of the United States Government's workforce, the integrity of its cleared contractor support, and the uncompromised nature of its technologies, services, and supply chains

DCSA is the security agency in the federal government dedicated to protecting America’s trusted workforce and trusted workspaces — real or virtual. DCSA joins two essential missions: Personnel Vetting and Critical Technology Protection, supported by Counterintelligence and Training, Education and Certification functions. DCSA services over 100 federal entities, oversees 10,000 cleared companies, and conducts approximately 2 million background investigations each year.

Personnel Vetting: DCSA’s Personnel Vetting mission delivers efficient and effective background investigations, continuous vetting, and adjudications to safeguard the integrity and trustworthiness of the federal and contractor workforce. DCSA conducts background investigations for 95% of the federal government, including 105 departments and agencies. Additionally, DCSA adjudicates 70% of the federal government’s adjudicative determinations.

Critical Technology Protection: DCSA provides oversight to approximately 10,000 cleared companies under the National Industrial Security Program (NISP), ensuring that the sensitive and classified U.S. government information they are entrusted with and the critical technologies they develop are properly protected. DCSA ensures that companies are adequately protecting their facilities, personnel, and associated IT systems from attacks and vulnerabilities.

Counterintelligence: Counterintelligence crosscuts both the Personnel Vetting and Critical Technology Protection missions to identify and stop attempts by our nation’s adversaries — foreign and domestic — to steal sensitive national security information and technologies, keeping U.S. government leaders and stakeholders informed of these threats.

Training, Education and Certification: DCSA is comprised of nationally accredited training centers that provide security training, education, and certification products and services for security professionals across the federal government and industry.

 

[Stampede]

There's always has to be one who thinks he's a comedian. Me thinks 1 hour doubling around the perimeter of the parade ground,, in full kit holding his rifle above his held yelling "I am not a comedian" at the top of his voice may cure him of such urges.

When I was at HMNZS Tamaki doing my RNZN BCT the GIs had some rocks that they used to encourage recalcitrant offenders. said offenders had to double time around the parade ground holding said rocks above their head showing the rocks the sights. Tamaki was situated in a quite scenic part of Auckland's North Shore which is also one of Auckland's more well to do areas because it looks out over the Hauraki Gulf. There were 3 rocks and each was progressively weightier than the other. If that failed, then they had a 4.5 in shell case filled with concrete. That was one real heavy case of encouragement. Of course such methods of encouragement are very much frowned upon today. Some people just have no sense of humour.

Rocks not needed.
I'll work on my comedic material!!

The PLAN Type 003 will be an impressive ship by any standard.
It will certainly take time to complete the ships fit out and undertake sea trials.
That said, when this is achieved the CCP will have an important instrument to back up their foreign policy.

While many compare the PLAN to the USN
It must be remembered they only commissioned their first aircraft carrier some 10 years ago.
They have truly achieved a lot in a short period of time.

Both impressive and concerning.


Cheers S

 

[ngatimozart]

Rocks not needed.
I'll work on my comedic material!!

The PLAN Type 003 will be an impressive ship by any standard.
It will certainly take time to complete the ships fit out and undertake sea trials.
That said, when this is achieved the CCP will have an important instrument to back up their foreign policy.

While many compare the PLAN to the USN
It must be remembered they only commissioned their first aircraft carrier some 10 years ago.
They have truly achieved a lot in a short period of time.

Both impressive and concerning.

Cheers S

It will be, but it is still early days. Whilst they have had help with their STOVL CV operations from the VMF, they won't for 003 unless they can persuade either the Brazilians or Argentinians to help. The Brazilians would be more current but there will still be Argentinians who will still know CATOBAR CV Ops. For the Brazilians it may possibly be both politically and diplomatically risky, but the Argentinians less so, especially if they can get a good quid pro quo on combat aircraft from the PRC. As some of has said before, it will take them decades to get up to the standard of the USN, RN, or MN Francais.

 

[Ananda]

Another image from SCMP, which also report that the launch that predicted this Friday is not happening. I'm reluctant to call it delay, as the prediction for this week launch coming from Chinese Defense enthusiast in online forums.

Still looking the possitioning of the yard, plus if we compared to previous launch on Shandong, this type 003 seems already in condition ready to launch.

As some of has said before, it will take them decades to get up to the standard of the USN, RN, or MN Francais.

I don't know about decades, but at least a decade in my opinion at minimum. China did sometimes shown they can fasten their development. However this is where I will be surprised if the talk of 6 CV on this decade just like their military enthusiast fan boys talk can happen.

At most they will have 2 STOBAR (Liaoning and Shandong) and having or in process of operational level 2 type 003 CATOBAR. The talk of another 2 type 004 CVN, I do see will be move ahead after PLAN already handle all logistics and operational issue on fully operating CATOBAR CV.

Sometimes even China need to take the learning curve cycle first before can move to next level. Something that when I see Chinese forums, many their fanboys not realizing that, or think a cycle of CV operation preparedness is similar thing like on other less complicated vessels.

 

[Stampede]

It will be, but it is still early days. Whilst they have had help with their STOVL CV operations from the VMF, they won't for 003 unless they can persuade either the Brazilians or Argentinians to help. The Brazilians would be more current but there will still be Argentinians who will still know CATOBAR CV Ops. For the Brazilians it may possibly be both politically and diplomatically risky, but the Argentinians less so, especially if they can get a good quid pro quo on combat aircraft from the PRC. As some of has said before, it will take them decades to get up to the standard of the USN, RN, or MN Francais.

The potential for knowledge support from either Argentina or Brazil is interesting.

The PLAN is on the way.
Maybe the comparison is not with the USN, but with where the PLAN was twenty years ago and where they will be in another decade.

Interesting times


Cheers S

 

[Ananda]

New Chinese Aircraft Carrier's Dry Dock Is Flooded, Launch Imminent

China's highly anticipated new carrier is seen fully decorated with its dry dock filled for its debut in new satellite imagery.

www.thedrive.com

Seems the dry dock already been flooded. Thus it is seems the process for launching is very soon. The photo shows also the flight deck already been cleared and full of decoration for ceremony.

 

[ngatimozart]

The big question is have they or when do they start construct of the Type 004? Will it be a CV or CVN?

 

[Stampede]

The big question is have they or when do they start construct of the Type 004? Will it be a CV or CVN?

Another question is the Type 75 LHD program.
Three ships built with talk of up to eight vessels in total.
No info yet on number four?
Is this program continuing or is it evolving into an evolved LHD titled Type 76.

Any update would be appreciated.


Cheers S

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

New Chinese Aircraft Carrier's Dry Dock Is Flooded, Launch Imminent

China's highly anticipated new carrier is seen fully decorated with its dry dock filled for its debut in new satellite imagery.

www.thedrive.com

Seems the dry dock already been flooded. Thus it is seems the process for launching is very soon. The photo shows also the flight deck already been cleared and full of decoration for ceremony.

After a couple of days of satellite photos and teaser images on the internet, the big day has arrived...

China has launched its largest and most impressive aircraft carrier to date. The Type-003 carrier rivals U.S. Navy carriers in size, the first non-American carrier to do so. And more are to come.

China Launches First Aircraft Carrier Which Rivals U.S. Navy’s - Naval News

Aircraft Carriers are a growing part of China's blue-water navy ambitions. A new carrier, the Type-003, has been launched. It is similar in size to the U.S. Navy's Ford and Nimitz class super carriers. This is the first non-US carrier in the world to even come close.

www.navalnews.com