Philippine Navy Discussion and Updates

[Zhaow]

Here's the price tag for current SSK fleets in the world

Improved Kilo SSK (Russia)-$350 million

Scorpene SSK (Spain)-$825 million

Type 209 SSK (German/Portugal)-$550 million

Type 212 SSK (Germany)-$525 million

Type 214 SSK (Germany)-$500 million

If you look at the Improved Kilo SSK price tag, it would edge out of the Type 209 SSK price tag. I would think a Kilo class SSK would be cheap enough for the Philippines to consider.

[Mod edit: Various senior members have tried to steer the conversation back on track in this thread but you continue to hold fast to your fortress of mistaken beliefs. The quality of your posts is falling below a sensible threshold and again another senior member is telling you, that you are wrong. Learn to listen and provide sources for your facts.]

 

[Ananda]

I stand by my opinion and I don't blame them. Why would I do that? That's their money and they can do whatever they want with it. Never said it and never implied it.

However, people still have a right to criticize it as much as people have criticized Indonesia for buying those refurbished F-16s. Same way some public opinions from your own people has criticized it and even labeled those F-16s as junk and a waste of money.

[Mod edit: Various senior members have tried to steer the conversation back on track in this thread but you continue to hold fast to your fortress of mistaken beliefs. The quality of your posts is falling below a sensible threshold and again another senior member is telling you, that you are wrong. Learn to listen and provide sources for your facts.]

Fair enough. So then also accept critics for people that accusing buying 2nd hand upgraded assets as 'junk' and mistaken policy, as opinion of 'shallow' accusation. Just like you say everybody has their opinion.

 

[STURM]

I would think a Kilo class SSK would be cheap enough for the Philippines to consider.

[Mod edit: Various senior members have tried to steer the conversation back on track in this thread but you continue to hold fast to your fortress of mistaken beliefs. The quality of your posts is falling below a sensible threshold and again another senior member is telling you, that you are wrong. Learn to listen and provide sources for your facts.]

You're just comparing prices off the internet without paying consideration to other factors such as long term operating costs - as in how much it will it cost to operate and maintain a submarine over a given period, in comparison to other designs. I have no idea how expensive it would be to operate or maintain Kilos so I'm won't speculate. Almost everyone is aware that the Russian submarines can be acquired cheaper than Western types but just because the Kilo is cheaper does NOT automaticly mean that it is the perfect choice or should be considered by the PN. I would suggest taking some time to read the previous posts to gain a better understanding of what others are trying to point out, before hitting the keyboard.

 

[icefrog]

Here's the price tag for current SSK fleets in the world

Improved Kilo SSK (Russia)-$350 million

Scorpene SSK (Spain)-$825 million

Type 209 SSK (German/Portugal)-$550 million

Type 212 SSK (Germany)-$525 million

Type 214 SSK (Germany)-$500 million

If you look at the Improved Kilo SSK price tag, it would edge out of the Type 209 SSK price tag. I would think a Kilo class SSK would be cheap enough for the Philippines to consider.

[Mod edit: Various senior members have tried to steer the conversation back on track in this thread but you continue to hold fast to your fortress of mistaken beliefs. The quality of your posts is falling below a sensible threshold and again another senior member is telling you, that you are wrong. Learn to listen and provide sources for your facts.]

The type 209 is very much in production and is as popular as the Kilo submarines. Korea is licensed to build type 209-1400 and their prices is much cheaper. Indonesia recently signed a contract with Korea for three type 209-1400 at a price of $1.1-1.2B. So that's roughly $400M each. The Turkey/Germany competing offer was two type 209-1400 for $1B. If Thailand and Phils. is considering type 209-1400 then having Korean-made type 209-1400 will be considered.

 

[SpartanSG]

We are not talking about 2012 or even 2013. We are talking about 2020 or so. And yes they will soon get the necessary budget of at least $10B. They will not be been thinking of subs and if it's feasible if they know a big budget is not going to be allocated. You should have done more research before jumping in.

They are not going for sophisticated subs with AIP, etc... They are not buying a fleet of 6 subs like Vietnam did either. They are going for small, less complex subs and in small quantity meant for littoral patrols.

The 2nd Hamilton cutter cost the Philippines US$10 million.

Philippines buys 2nd US Hamilton ship to build up its military CCTV News - CNTV English

That's after an 81% increase in defence expenditure to US2.3 billion.

A 2nd hand submarine will cost many more times that amount. In order words, the cost of a 2nd hand submarine can pay for several more cutters. While a submarine offers a whole new dimension of capability, I would say it ranks seriously low in priority right now since the AFP doesn't even have the capability to monitor its own air space or the rocks/islets/reefs that it claims in the Spratlys.

What good is a submarine (or 2) when there are insufficient cutters to protect your own fishermen?

Also, if the AFP wants to get its 1st submarine by 2020, it needs to start training its 1st submarine crew now. Unless of course the AFP considers it acceptable to its 1st commanding officer of a submarine who has very little experience.

 

[malaktiti]

This is an response to SpartanSG.

Hopefully, they'll buy all the Hamilton cutters that the USCG are going to decommision. The Philippines needs more surface ships than submarines at this time. Who says they have to train their submarine crews 8 years before they get the subs? Is that your standard procedure? I wonder if you are an expert in submarine crew training?

 

[SpartanSG]

This is an response to SpartanSG.

Hopefully, they'll buy all the Hamilton cutters that the USCG are going to decommision. The Philippines needs more surface ships than submarines at this time. Who says they have to train their submarine crews 8 years before they get the subs? Is that your standard procedure? I wonder if you are an expert in submarine crew training?

The reason for the long lead time is pretty simple.

1. Training to operate a submarine is 2 years. And the attrition rate is quite high as not everyone is suitable to work in a steel can under the ocean where if something goes wrong, the chaps may not see sunlight ever again. This training includes training on how to escape from a distressed submarine. This portion of the training is no joke and can result in permanent lung damage if not done properly.

2. After 2 years of training, for those who qualify, they go on to form the crew of a submarine and train on the submarine that they will operate on. This can take several months to several years until they are sufficiently familiar with the hardware to turn it into an operational capability.

3. There is also the issue of how much experience and seniority the 1st commanding officer, executive officer and navigator of a country's 1st submarine should have. Is it good enough to have an officer command the country's 1st submarine when he is fresh out of training?

Another thing a lot of people don't realise is that operating a submarine is quite similar to operating an aircraft, because the submarine moves in 3 dimensions (just like an aircraft). Hence, the time needed to train a submarine crew is closer to that of a fighter crew rather than that of a ship (movements in 2 dimensions only).

 

[Zhaow]

The reason for the long lead time is pretty simple.

1. Training to operate a submarine is 2 years. And the attrition rate is quite high as not everyone is suitable to work in a steel can under the ocean where if something goes wrong, the chaps may not see sunlight ever again. This training includes training on how to escape from a distressed submarine. This portion of the training is no joke and can result in permanent lung damage if not done properly.

2. After 2 years of training, for those who qualify, they go on to form the crew of a submarine and train on the submarine that they will operate on. This can take several months to several years until they are sufficiently familiar with the hardware to turn it into an operational capability.

3. There is also the issue of how much experience and seniority the 1st commanding officer, executive officer and navigator of a country's 1st submarine should have. Is it good enough to have an officer command the country's 1st submarine when he is fresh out of training?

Another thing a lot of people don't realise is that operating a submarine is quite similar to operating an aircraft, because the submarine moves in 3 dimensions (just like an aircraft). Hence, the time needed to train a submarine crew is closer to that of a fighter crew rather than that of a ship (movements in 2 dimensions only).

That's why if the Philippine Navy wants to get in on the SSK business by 2020, they need to get in on it NOW and start the lead process before the first SSK submarine arrives in the Philippines. It takes several years to train people for submarine duty and it cost alot of money to to send crews overseas to train on a submarine. If the Philippine Navy wants SSK Submarines by 2020, they need to have some deep discussions with either the South Korean Navy or Russian Navy now on getting in on the SSK Submarine business.

As for a choice of boat, It would boil down to either the South Korean version of a Type 209 or the Russian Improved Kilo Class SSK.

Also here's info on the Russian Kilo class SSK
http://www.ckb-rubin.ru/en/projects/naval_engineering/conventional_submarines/

 

[gf0012-aust]

Can some of you pause before posting as this thread is heading to Tom Clancy levels of fiction over fact.

It might be useful to reinforce individual belief rather than make bold claims about how subs work, are acquired and/or perform because quite a few claims about sub performance and capability just don't reflect what some of us do know about subs - and some of us have actually been involved in various sub programs

staying on track and separating fact from fiction, and opinion from fact would be useful from this point on.

 

[Zhaow]

Here's a question for ya. Since the Philippines are buying the US Coast Guard's old 378 Hamilton class Cutters. What do you think if the Philippines were to buy the US Coast Guards WMEC medium endurance cutters such as the old Reliance class cutters and the Famous class cutter. Can any of you see the prospect of the Philippines operating an old US Coast Guard medium endurance cutters as an off shore patrol ship or corvette.

Also do you think if their is any prospects of the Philippine navy buying into the US Coast Guard's old 110 Island class Patrol Boats, now that the US Coast Guard has the Sentinel class cutter that is coming online. What would be the odds of that happening.

As for the Philippines buying the US Coast Guard's old 378 Hamilton class cutters, I can see them out fit the Hamilton class cutters to Light Frigate standards such as the Colombian Navy's Almirante Padilla class frigate or to India Navy's Sukanya class patrol vessel

 

[malaktiti]

Here's a question for ya. Since the Philippines are buying the US Coast Guard's old 378 Hamilton class Cutters. What do you think if the Philippines were to buy the US Coast Guards WMEC medium endurance cutters such as the old Reliance class cutters and the Famous class cutter. Can any of you see the prospect of the Philippines operating an old US Coast Guard medium endurance cutters as an off shore patrol ship or corvette.

Also do you think if their is any prospects of the Philippine navy buying into the US Coast Guard's old 110 Island class Patrol Boats, now that the US Coast Guard has the Sentinel class cutter that is coming online. What would be the odds of that happening.

As for the Philippines buying the US Coast Guard's old 378 Hamilton class cutters, I can see them out fit the Hamilton class cutters to Light Frigate standards such as the Colombian Navy's Almirante Padilla class frigate or to India Navy's Sukanya class patrol vessel

Do you think the Hamiltons are old enough? Why do you think the Philippines would want to acquire even older ships? IMHO, they will stop with the Hamilton class. What they really need are real frigates and corvettes likely they will get them from Italy.

 

[colay]

I read on the CVF thread that the Royal Navy will be retiring the HMS Ocean once their new carrier(s) is operational. The ship is reported to have been commissioned in 1998 and should still be serviceable if retired by early in the next decade.
I was thinking that the Philippine Navy and Marines could find it useful for security and humanitarian missions. It's ability to deploy helos and amphibious vehicles will give the PN a capability it's never had before.

 

[malaktiti]

I read on the CVF thread that the Royal Navy will be retiring the HMS Ocean once their new carrier(s) is operational. The ship is reported to have been commissioned in 1998 and should still be serviceable if retired by early in the next decade.
I was thinking that the Philippine Navy and Marines could find it useful for security and humanitarian missions. It's ability to deploy helos and amphibious vehicles will give the PN a capability it's never had before.

Do you think you're looking too far ahead just like the Philippines acquisition of submarines? Is there a definitive evidence that the Royal Navy is even going to retire this ship in the next decade? Why do you think the Philippines would want to have such capability in the future probably with too high a cost to maintain the ship?

 

[colay]

Do you think you're looking too far ahead just like the Philippines acquisition of submarines? Is there a definitive evidence that the Royal Navy is even going to retire this ship in the next decade? Why do you think the Philippines would want to have such capability in the future probably with too high a cost to maintain the ship?

IMO the Philippines could definitely benefit from the capabilities such a ship can provide. It's a multi-role platform and security roles aside, there is a strong justification as an emergency responder. The Philippines is regularly beset with natural calamities and the delivery of aid is often hampered for days or even weeks by damage to the transportation infrastructure. Similar ships proved their value responding to disasters in Haiti and Japan in recent years.
It's been reported that HMS Ocean was to be retired in 2018 but this date has moved back to 2022. It's cost should be a fraction of the much newer HMS Largs Bay which served only from 2006 to 2011 and was purchased by Australia for a reported A$100Million.

 

[ManilaBoy]

The PN has rescued protected sea turtles that were caught from the net laid down by Chinese poachers in a remote area west of Palawan island , a navy commander said saturday ...

Philippines rescues sea turtles from poachers' net - Yahoo! News

 

[SpartanSG]

IMO the Philippines could definitely benefit from the capabilities such a ship can provide. It's a multi-role platform and security roles aside, there is a strong justification as an emergency responder. The Philippines is regularly beset with natural calamities and the delivery of aid is often hampered for days or even weeks by damage to the transportation infrastructure. Similar ships proved their value responding to disasters in Haiti and Japan in recent years.
It's been reported that HMS Ocean was to be retired in 2018 but this date has moved back to 2022. It's cost should be a fraction of the much newer HMS Largs Bay which served only from 2006 to 2011 and was purchased by Australia for a reported A$100Million.

The capability offered by a ship such as HMS Ocean will certainly be useful to the Philippines since they are fighting in the south and typhoons do tend to cause havoc to population centres.

However, while the cost of acquiring such a ship 2nd hand may not be too high, the cost of operating it in the long term will constitute a sizeable drain on the AFP's finances. I would think that their most pressing priority is to have sufficient cutter-type assets and maritime surveillance aircraft to patrol the waters they claim as their EEZ. 2 Hamiltons is a good start, but isn't enough.

 

[colay]

The capability offered by a ship such as HMS Ocean will certainly be useful to the Philippines since they are fighting in the south and typhoons do tend to cause havoc to population centres.

However, while the cost of acquiring such a ship 2nd h Iand may not be too high, the cost of operating it in the long term will constitute a sizeable drain on the AFP's finances. I would think that their most pressing priority is to have sufficient cutter-type assets and maritime surveillance aircraft to patrol the waters they claim as their EEZ. 2 Hamiltons is a good start, but isn't enough.

I realize there will be cost implications but in my mind I was weighing it's aquisition vs that of a brand new SSK which would probably be in the $200-300M price range.. maybe HMS Ocean could be acquired for 10-20% of that using the LARGS BAY transaction as a rough guide. For the cost of just a couple of TA-50s that the PAF is interested in buying, the PN could acquire a very useful asset. Of course there's the ongoing O&M expense to deal with but I think it's worth a study at least.

 

[swerve]

When Ocean is retired, she'll be pretty worn out, having been designed for a fairly short life & worked hard. Largs Bay was nearly new, & supposedly built to a higher standard. The price of Ocean will therefore be lower, even allowing for Largs Bay having been underpriced (the bloody stupid MoD asked for less than the Australian first offer!), but a thorough refit will be needed, which will put up the cost a lot.

Ocean isn't for sale yet. The much smaller Italian Santi LPDs should come onto the market earlier, & could be better buys.

 

[T.C.P]

When Ocean is retired, she'll be pretty worn out, having been designed for a fairly short life & worked hard. Largs Bay was nearly new, & supposedly built to a higher standard. The price of Ocean will therefore be lower, even allowing for Largs Bay having been underpriced (the bloody stupid MoD asked for less than the Australian first offer!), but a thorough refit will be needed, which will put up the cost a lot.

Ocean isn't for sale yet. The much smaller Italian Santi LPDs should come onto the market earlier, & could be better buys.

IMHO
PN should go after ships with missile armaments, FACMs, Corvettes, Frigates.

Whenever I look at the Philippine military and the threats they face, I wonder what their govt has been doing for so long.

I don't know about the level of defence cooperation Philippine has with S.Korea, but they should try and get the ULSAN class frigate like us. Its a beautiful ship, armed with new generation OTOMATS and can poe a serious threat to all aggressors.

Instead of going for extremely expensive and hard to mainatin sub, the money would definetely be better spent on their surface fleet.

Philippine has much closer defence ties with the US than BD, they should use this to get their hands on the OHPs, sure they are old, but for 100 million dollars they can get the ship refurbished and even upgraded to an extent, a 4000+ ton ship would be fantastic for the PN, given of course that they have the base infrastructure for such a large ship.

Or they could even go for more novel approaches, buying OPVs and then upgrading them with SSMs, (like we did with the Castle class).

I am far from being a naval expert, but to me, it just seems that the PN seriously lacks fire power.

 

[Acadiana Pirate]

IMHO
PN should go after ships with missile armaments, FACMs, Corvettes, Frigates.

Whenever I look at the Philippine military and the threats they face, I wonder what their govt has been doing for so long.

I don't know about the level of defence cooperation Philippine has with S.Korea, but they should try and get the ULSAN class frigate like us. Its a beautiful ship, armed with new generation OTOMATS and can poe a serious threat to all aggressors.
.

The last 1 year or so PN have been negotiating in acquiring the Maestrale/Soldati class of the Italian Navy. Italy plans to retire 7 frigates the next 5 years. If that happens the planned acquisition of 2-3 italian frigates could serve as backbone of the Philippine navy with the WHEC Hamiltons they have been getting from the USCG.