Pakistan to transfer composite armor technology to Turkey.

[Waylander]

The tank is said to be dead many, many times in the past. Just ask the US-boys who walked into Iraq. This type of action would have been impossible without heavy mechanized forces.
And till now there is no ground unit which unites mobility, protection and firepower into one system like the MBT.
With which system do you want to replace real MBTs?

 

[atilla]

future and past

ın mıddle ages there wasnt a system whıch can replace knights they were heavy mobility and strong and armored but somethıng came up called gun powder riffles canons and etc.... today technology ıs advancıng faster than past and gettıng smalerr maybe plastıc armored whıth color changıng expecıalıty lıke bukelemun and does ıt have to has tıres or tracks can move lıke hoovercraft thıs the ıdea whıch ı found rıght now but every one can fell tıme of MBT ıs come to an end there ıs even bullets whıch can penetrate tanks armor that technology could ımprove ın tıme or better equıped faster and color changıng ZMA could take the duty of MBT just a bıt braın strom ı dıd and shared my ıdeas thanks for your respond

 

[Waylander]

Which little gun under 120mm is able to penetrate a tank from the front?

For sure technic is getting better and better, but none of your ideas is near to maturity phase.

Just give me an example which system could replace a tank in the next 20 years because Turkey needs a new one NOW and not in 40-60 years.

 

[atilla]

ı thınk turkey does not need a MBT ı cant gıve an perfect perfect example to the ıdeas whıch ı mentıoned because probly they are not commercıal and when they wıll be comercıal lots of thank producer or armor producers wont be producıng MBT But ı thınk Turkey needs to produce a system whıch wıll be ın use next 50 or 60 years or has to start makıng researches on ıt rather than savıng thıs moment or mınute ı prefer to to save next 60 or 100 years so we can all see turkısh army would not purchase or develop any MBT thıs ıs because they are also sure MBT ıs come to an end they wıll probably use better armored ZMA or 4*4 or 8*8 lıke pandur or panter

 

[Soner1980]

I think Turkey needs a tank fleet now and in the future. MBT's can be stopped best by MBT's and not by APC's. They are too vulnerable to light infantry weapons. Look to the BMP's in the Afganistan war when Soviets entered that country. All light AFV's burnt like paper. More recently, watch to the Chechen war when the most APC/IFV's and also MBT's were de-mobilized and then captured or destroyed by the Chechens.

Today Turkey needs to take steps to gain the ability to produce a locally designed tank or else we would never be able to built heavy vehicles. Also the tank is never being out of the battlefield. The leopard-2 can used for 20 years and in the 20 years I do not expect that a smaller cannon with double the penetrating power of the L-55 120mm SB gun would be designed.

That the laser gun will take the place of canons? Yes but it is too soon now and the laser gun is only used in huge platorms to destroy upcomming rockets and missiles (THEL) and not in small arms yet.

The MBT will stay in the battlefield, but I think the light tank, medium tank and the MBT or heavy tank will come back again. If you see the climate is changing and the war tactics are changing (urban warfare) and that a large scale war like WWIII will occur is very small I think. The light tanks can be effectively used against guerilla's with high speed, low cost, acceptable armor and heavy armament to deal with T-62 or M60 class MBT's. I think Turkey should built 20 ton tanks to fight the PKK teror activity coming from Iraq and also design 30-35 ton tanks for use in rough terain and less fuel consumption. And only 60 ton tanks to fight enemy armor.

This is my Idea but I don't think that Turkey would choose this kind of way to arm the Turkish armed forces because Turkey needs one type of tank that is able to deal with everything on the battle field and that is the reason that Turkey needs composite armor technology to built indigenously a state of the art MBT for the Army.

 

[Waylander]

After the first infantry weapons very developed some people said the tank is dead, after the first ATGMs occured some people said the tank is dead, after the cold war ended some people said the MBT is dead, etc.
Till now the tank remained the best weapon for a powerfull offensive and a mobile defense.
The reason why you are not able to make an example for a system which could replace the tank is that there is no such system and there will be no such system in the near future.

 

[hovercraft]

This whole discussion changes into Turkish need of MBT and Al Khalid, Leopard abilities and suitable tank for turkey but the actual topic was different. So considering New Topic my question is, What is current Turkish tank infantry?

 

[beleg]

Dear brother,
I assume you mean *inventory*, if so please find the information below:

298 Leopard IIA4 (under delivery)
225 Leopard IA3
165 Leopard IA1 ([FONT=Trebuchet MS, verdana, arial, helvetica]1[/FONT])
650+ M60A3
270+ M60A1 (2)
750+ M48A5T2 (~=M60A3 in terms of capabilities)
600+ M48A5T1 (~=M60A1 in terms of capabilities)

There are more than 1000 more M48s of earlier generations which are either in storage/reserve , being used as spare parts or being scrapped.
It is not clear yet if the remaining M60s or the LeopardIA3s will go under modernisation. The current amount of LeopardIIA4s is enough to deter an armored threat from the west and the SABRAIII&Volkan is better than anything on our east so this is likely.

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, verdana, arial, helvetica](1) 162 of them are being upgraded by ASELSAN with a new Aselsan Eagle Eye-I thermal imaging and fire control system and electrically stabilized turret system under the name Volkan project. To be completed by January 2007.[/FONT]

(2)[FONT=Trebuchet MS, verdana, arial, helvetica] 170 units are under SABRA III upgrade program which is to be completed by the end of 2008. The upgrade program encompasses thermal imaging and Elbit Knight-III fire control system (including stabilizer and ballistic computer), 120mm Merkawa-IV L-42 smoothbore cannon (compatible with LAHAT guided ammunition) and fume extractor, automatic fire and explosion suppression system, Merkawa-IV add-on armor technology and explosive reactive armor (ERA), 1000 hp MTU diesel engine/RENK transmission, full system modernization and integration capability, new improved Merkawa-IV tracks, RWR/IR warning system and NBC protection.

[/FONT]Information compiled from warriorsouls' site, which is one of the most accurate about Turkish Armed forces on the net...

 

[atilla]

u are rıght but there ıs always but

After the first infantry weapons very developed some people said the tank is dead, after the first ATGMs occured some people said the tank is dead, after the cold war ended some people said the MBT is dead, etc.
Till now the tank remained the best weapon for a powerfull offensive and a mobile defense.
The reason why you are not able to make an example for a system which could replace the tank is that there is no such system and there will be no such system in the near future.

well if ı look ın realıstıc way ın todays armıes your all words are true but ıf we all can not name a system and can not even thınk another that must be sometıng wrong .!!!!!!!! ıf we look ın all modern armıes yes they do use MBT and makıng new ones also whıth dıfferent armors etc...... or lıke soner saıd lazers could replace ın future so on he ıs also rıght ....... but ı would lıke to remınd 1 thıng dear frıends when seljuks meet the heavy armored knıghts they dıd not use more armor or same armor ın that days sutiatıon armored knıghts was the MBT of today or when romans had sımılar sutuatıons whith cartagen heavy thanks Elephants dıd they brıng other elephants?

answer ıs no .... but today we are all sayıng notıng could replace MBT ı just try to make my poınt by usıng hıstorıcal facts ı m not expertısed ın MBT s or ZMA just try to remınd past what they dıd .....

 

[Waylander]

For sure you have to learn from the past but comparing MBTs to knights or war elephants is too easy. I could also use the knights as an argument and say "Hey look at how long they dominated warfare. That is much longer than tanks even exist, not to talk of modern MBTs".
That would also not be an argument.

I also think that someday the tank might be gone. I am aware of the new tech which is under development. But it could also happen that all his new stuff leads to a new high-tech version of MBTs with many new improvements in it.
And in the end you should just look at the facts.
Turkey needs a new MBT NOW because the ones they have are obsolete. Just upgrading them is not enough. No modern army which wants to be able to fight a ground war in normal terrain is able to do so without MBTs.
And again my question. There is a need for a new turkish MBT. You say that new system should be used instead of a new MBT. But these system are not available and won't be in the near future.
So what is the alternative to a new MBT?
Turkey is on a good way with very good electronics, capable gun and the most modern armor they can get. We don't know what little gadgets they are going to implement in it.

 

[extern]

No one western futuristic tank program is targeted for creation of more than 50t tank. (FCS etc) It means T-xx serial MBT with less than 50t was a move in right direction. Now the americans try to develop even more ambitiouse project of light tanks - FCS.

 

[Waylander]

The first version of the M1 and Leopard II were also not much heavier than 50 tons.

 

[atilla]

armors

like the topic says composit armor ..... to turkey ın thıs example ıs seems realy unusefull expecıally consıderıng FCS program wıll be on fıeld by 2010 ın reference to US army or Other armıes of west

thıs means actually thıs armor technology transfer wıll be out dated when turkey starts devolopıng ıts own MBT s ın other words Turkey wıll be producıng out dated armor compare to other ......... wıll the pakıstans armor transfer have capabılıty to upgrate to electronıc armor? or robust ballistic armor ? ı thınk ıt ıs not posıble ı m not tryıng to say pakıstanı armor ıs not good ı m just sayıng many armor systems wıll be probly out dated by 2012 0r 2010 lıke napeleon saıd once ın every 10 years war tactıcs and equıpments could change ....

 

[Soner1980]

Turkey is now going to adopt the composite armor plating technology to it's scientific laboratorial inventory. If you know the technology, you can also make a break-through improvements of the basic technology gained by Pakistan. Like the T-64-T-72 style hull design, the Chinese have designed their own hull for todays MBT's in PLA' MBT fleet.

Turkey would also design their own battle tank and the first will be built with Pakistani transfered composite armor. If you look to the weight of the Al Khalid, 46 tons, and having good protection, than it is a very good armored by comparison it's weight. If the Al Khalid was 56 tons or even 65 tons, than the Al Khalid was maybe the same armored like the Al Khalid or the Challenger 2.

If you look to the Korean K-1, the initial production has also a limited armor in terms of the 1996's Leopard-2A5 and the M1A2. The later production was an improved design with also better armor. The K1A1 is the latest. The A1 version used a better armor type to protect the tank against shaped charge impact.

Later on, Korea is now designing the K-2 wich has composite armor. Like the Pakistani armor tech transfer, Turkey can make use of the transfered armor type and after future improvements it can start with a never version. Like the Abrams, The first production was also not so very good armored, later built with better armor on it called M1IP, or later M1A1 and than M1A1HA for 'Heavy Armor" with DU inplemented. The M1A2 has also the latest armor what the Americans can get and surely they would make advancements in it's armor technology.

And sure Turkey is to make inprovements on it if Turkey has aquired the composite armor plating technology from Pakistan. Like building a wall, you have to cement the first brick on the ground and later you will go higher and higher, finaly you have built a wall...

 

[Soner1980]

like the topic says composit armor ..... to turkey ın thıs example ıs seems realy unusefull expecıally consıderıng FCS program wıll be on fıeld by 2010 ın reference to US army or Other armıes of west

thıs means actually thıs armor technology transfer wıll be out dated when turkey starts devolopıng ıts own MBT s ın other words Turkey wıll be producıng out dated armor compare to other ......... wıll the pakıstans armor transfer have capabılıty to upgrate to electronıc armor? or robust ballistic armor ? ı thınk ıt ıs not posıble ı m not tryıng to say pakıstanı armor ıs not good ı m just sayıng many armor systems wıll be probly out dated by 2012 0r 2010 lıke napeleon saıd once ın every 10 years war tactıcs and equıpments could change ....

The composite armor is not out-dated or obsolete by 2010 or 2012. The electric shock armor is maybe not working and then? After 15-20 years the composite armor plating will also used but maybe in more advanced version of it or in APC's the M113 is built with aluminium, and later they will be built with composite armor or with plasti-steel laminate armor. If you saw the documentary of Discovery channel, Extreme machines - tanks, than you can see an APC with plastic steel and it is much lighter tank than the M113 with the same protection on it.

And MBT's will not be replaced by another AFV but the weapon, tracks, engine, electronics and the armor could be replaced by newer or inovative systems...

 

[swerve]

The first version of the M1 and Leopard II were also not much heavier than 50 tons.

Yes: both 54-55 tons. The M1 is often said to be heavier than the Leopard 2, because the weight is often given in American tons, known in England, & in shipping circles, as "short tons", but in reality they've generally weighed much the same, both having been up-armoured to 60-63 tons (depending on version) now. The oft-quoted 69-70 tons for an M1A2 is in US tons, & a US ton = 2000 lb = 907 kg. Same problem occurs when comparing ships.

An Imperial (British) ton = 2240 lb = 1016 kg, so British tons aren't significantly different from metric. And in any case, we usually use metric tons for such things`

 

[Soner1980]

Why this kind of values in the whole world? When does this be standardized? a Yard is also 90 cm. This will never be solved

But back to my country wich is involved in the technology transfer for composite armor... The armor type of the El Khalid, yes its composite we all know, but what kind of composite does the Chinese use in their T-96 or even in their T-98/99? They have also reinforced their T-99's with ERA and taken the shape of a Leo-2A5 roughly. But if we know what type of composition is used in the Type-96 or -98, than we can make some estimates because of the Type-90 and more recent designs the same armor is used in Chinese tanks I think. For sure it is not Chobham or industrially called 'Burlington type' armor...

 

[extern]

They have also reinforced their T-99's with ERA and taken the shape of a Leo-2A5 roughly.

What relation has chineese ERA to Leo-2A5? I think you again try to measure chineese tanks with western pintes

 

[Waylander]

I think he ment the form of the turret not ERA.

 

[Soner1980]

If you look to the pictures of the Leo2-a5/a6 and the Chinese Type-98G or Type-99, than tou will see.

Also the Iranian Zolfiqar 3 tank is a look a like M1 Abrams Most countries who has something with western countries, design their tanks like western tanks in the form, but the Zulfiqar 3 has the Russian 125mm 2A46 gun.

The Type-98G has somewhat of the leo-2a5/a6. I do not mean that it is the entire turret of the leo-2a5/a6 or ERA or something the western MBT's does not use ERA.