Pakistan to transfer composite armor technology to Turkey.

[Soner1980]

Pakistan has the technology and the know how to produce a Pakistani MBT. The El Khalid. Mostly Chinese technologies are seen here. Pakistan has made some changes in it's design and systems. The Engine is from Ukraine, etc.. Applique armor plates for the future when more modern armor is available. I think the Al Khalids armor is the same as that one in the T-64 and T-72 but I'm not sure and 'reinforced' with reactive armor.

It is a pitty that Pakistani bro's does not have the chance to conduct some advancement research on the tech they already have in their hands. But Turkey does have such an lab. Turkey has everything besides armor know how and tech and the limited funds are also big problem.

I don't know about the Volkan III but the Volkan II is in upcomming. But when it will be available I dunnot know. The Volkan I is also giving the old Leo-1's a MBT's 3rd generation firing capabilities of todays standards. But also Germany for example has to do decades of research to get the armor to protect the MBT and save the existance of it. The result is the Leopard-2A5 or later.

Turkey is not to produce the Khalid but only needs armor tech. When armor tech is gained than Turkey can built it's own MBT and field them in the beginning of the next decade.

 

[TheDefender]

Here is an article which I have found

Al-Khalid Tank, Formally MBT 2000

Introduction

Al-Khalid is one of the newest and one of the most deadliest tanks in the world, its a result of the advanced technology available in the world today. It meets severe desert conditions, with high performance. It represents the ideal integration of firepower, mobility and protection. This tank is created In Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT) Pakistan. Pilot production is underway since November 2000.

Al-Khaild Tanks Unique Abilities

Al-Khalid is capable of targeting the enemy in the dark of night. It is the only tank that has the ability to auto-track the enemy's tanks. Only French tanks have this capability. It is also as powerful as the German tank Leopard in terms of movement. The Al-Khalid tank's performance is much better than the Russian T-90-S tank, since its designed extreme temperatures.

Features & Fire Power

Al-Khalid has been designed with a 125mm (48 caliber) smooth bore, auto-frettaged and chrome plated gun which can fire APFSDS, HEAT-FS and HE-FS conventional ammunition and missiles. It is equipped with muzzle reference system, and bi-axis stabilization. Elevation and azimuth control is achieved by electro-hydraulic power drives. The tank is also equipped with a 7.62 mm-coaxial MG, 12.7mm externally mounted MG that can be fired with the hatch closed and grenade launchers.
The gunner is provided with a dual magnification day sight and the commander with a panoramic Hunter Killer sight for all around independent surveillance. Both sights are bi-axis image stabilized and have independent laser range finders.

Multi-Target Engagement Abilities

The commander has the ability of acquiring a target independently while the gunner is engaging a previously selected one.

Rate Of Fire

The automatic ammunition handling system, with 24 round ready-to-fire magazine further supplements the Hunter-Killer capability of the tank which can load at a rate of 8 rounds a minute. The presence of automatic target tracking system enables the tank to achieve a very high first round hit probability even while firing on a moving target while moving itself.

Night Vision

Night vision for the gunner and commander is achieved through a dual magnification thermal imaging sight. The powerful fire control system computer processes all the firing information, which includes inputs from its ten sensors and is integrated to both sights.

Fire Control

The ballistic computation time is less than one second. For accurate fire control, third generation gating facility has been provided. The result of such a modern fire control system is, routine first round hits on standard (8 ft x 8 ft) targets at ranges in excess of 2000 meters.
The tank with its 125mm gun has a remarkably stable platform, which is provided by a combination of soft recoil and an excellent suspension.

Wrapped around the fire control system are the ergonomic crew positions and controls. The tank commander, gunner and driver can virtually reach all their controls with little movement.

Engine

A 1200 horsepower super charged, diesel engine and semi-automatic transmission, provides mobility. An under Armour auxiliary power supply unit provides a significant reduction in fuel consumption during 'Silent Watch' and maintenance operations, as auxiliary functions can be performed without main engine power. The highly reliable suspension consists of torsion bars, hydraulic dampers and buffers that afford a high level of comfort for its crew.

Combat Weight & Speed

Besides a low silhouette, it is considerably smaller as compared to other modern tanks. Its maximum weight of 46 tons provides a double advantage; it is strategically easily deployed and is more agile. Its power to weight ratio, in excess of 26 HP/ton, gives the vehicle a maximum speed of around 70 km/h, acceleration from 0~ 30 km/h in less than 10 seconds.

Its low mean maximum pressure and the excellent ride given by its suspension make Al-Khalid an ideal vehicle to fight in any theatre of operation.

Armour & Protection

Al-Khalid has been designed to provide maximum protection and efficiency for its 3 men crew. Protection is afforded by use of modular composite Armour and explosive reactive Armour. Al-Khalid also offers enhanced protection through NBC, an effective Thermal Smoke Generation, Automatic Fire Extinguishing and Explosion Suppression Systems.

Limited Under Water Capabilities

The submerging system allows it to operate 5 meters under water. Navigation is assisted by the use of Global Positioning and Inertial Navigation Systems.

Al-Khalid & Arjun Tank

Al-Khalid is far more modern than India's Arjun, which took 25 years to be developed and is still not completed. Pakistan already has an edge over India in an armed conflict, but after the addition of Al-Khalid, Pakistan would be invincible in a land war.

Soo what the else should it do here it is compared to the indian counterpart Arjun tank now what else you want it to do should it fly.

 

[SABRE]

Soo what the else should it do here it is compared to the indian counterpart Arjun tank now what else you want it to do should it fly.

TheDefender,

The tank it self is not being questioned here. Whats being discussed is the armour.

& even when coming to armour, what type & material of Composite-Modular armour is being used is the question. This information is not availble. Pakistan hides information in conditions when certain technology or technologies have been aquired via illegale means.

 

[Waylander]

Despite that the 125mm gun is good but not as good as modern western guns and the Leclerc is not the only other one with an auto tracking system. The Merkava has also one up from version Mrk.III.
And nobody says that the Al-Khalid is a bad tank.
Despite that the article has no real information in it. The only funded information in it is the power to weight ratio.
Everything else is just "It has excellent this and excellent that" without any real information.
Back to armor.
Is Turkey going to use ERA like system or do they rely totally on passive armor?

 

[TheDefender]

TheDefender,

The tank it self is not being questioned here. Whats being discussed is the armour.

& even when coming to armour, what type & material of Composite-Modular armour is being used is the question. This information is not availble. Pakistan hides information in conditions when certain technology or technologies have been aquired via illegale means.

Sabre i want to put a question here that

Pakistan gets the full armor for its thousands of tanks via illgal means to upgrade them

or pakistan only gets the tech or blue prints and on that base paksitan makes the upgradation.

I think the second on should be right pakistan should be getting the blueprints.But why to hide them, i dont think pakistaan must be getting the tech from Israel there are many other options too like China and Ukrine.
I know the discussion was going on the armour but who's armor it was Al khalid and someone was saying this and someone was saying that.So i tried to clear that thing up.

 

[beleg]

Is Turkey going to use ERA like system or do they rely totally on passive armor?

We still have to wait and see.. Its too early to speculate about this.

 

[SABRE]

Sabre i want to put a question here that

Pakistan gets the full armor for its thousands of tanks via illgal means to upgrade them

or pakistan only gets the tech or blue prints and on that base paksitan makes the upgradation.

I think the second on should be right pakistan should be getting the blueprints.But why to hide them, i dont think pakistaan must be getting the tech from Israel there are many other options too like China and Ukrine.
I know the discussion was going on the armour but who's armor it was Al khalid and someone was saying this and someone was saying that.So i tried to clear that thing up.

When you are aquiring Technology via illegal means or if you want to keep the exchange secret, you most probably would want to go for Transfer of Technology. Continuous (illegal) trade, exchange, barter will arise suspicion sooner or later.

Incase you can not transfer technology (there could be various reasons), you work it via 3rd party. Usually there is always a 3rd party. Thisi s offcourse in terms with Pakistan.

 

[Soner1980]

Back to armor.
Is Turkey going to use ERA like system or do they rely totally on passive armor?

Turkey has the ability to produce RHA armor. The AIFV & AAPC series and the ACV-S series has spaced armor wich can be reinforces with applique steel armor to protect against 30mm AP rounds. Turkey can built a tank like a leopard-1, AMX-30 or the Italian variant leo-1 is the OF-40 and maybe a M60A3 class with Sabra upgrade I think. It is not much hard to produce a 1960's era tank. But Turkey want a tank wich come close to the Abrams, T-80, Leopard-2, Leclerc and the Ariete on the world market.

With the transfer of the composite armor plating by Pakistan, Turkey can design a tank with can stop a Greek Leopard-2, The T-72 from Syria, Iran and Armenia, The Zolfiqar from Iran also. Without the composite armor, then it will be ended like the Arjun: Too heavy, less powered engine makes it slower and engine overheat, expensive, etc.. That Turkey chooses to reinforce the armor with ERA depends on the further development of the transfered design but again this will show that the armor is insuffucient... :

 

[Waylander]

Stopping the L/55 of the Greek Leopard IIHE is not that easy.

 

[beleg]

Luckly we will not see a tank versus tank combat between Greece and Turkey. Although the terrain in Thrace is suitable (except the shores of Meric/Evros) for an armored attack , both sides have strong defences and other assets to stop each others armored force.

Besides in any tank battle, i think first hit capability is much more important than the armor quality. Todays ammunition can penetrate all types of armor (except maybe from front) if the tank is not protected by other active or passive measures. And every tank batallion has its anti tank teams which have deadly , top attacking anti tank missiles.

 

[Soner1980]

What is the specifications of the L-55 120mm tank gun of the Leo-2A6? Or at least the estimates? The muzzle velocity and the effective firing range...

In the Time of 2012 - 2015, Turkey will also gain the longer barreled tank gun for the MBT's. Examples is the longer barreled version of the L-42 120mm Merkava-4 tank gun installed on the Sabra tanks.

 

[Waylander]

The v0 is more than 1750 m/s.
In the trials in Greece an Leo IIA6EX penetrated an T-72M1 at more than 4000m and left the turret at the back with good speed.
The penetrating capacity is more than 30% higher than the L30 rifled gun with DU-Pentrator (Despite the fact that DU is not really better than other materials just cheaper) of the Chally 2 during the decision for the L/55 as the Chally 2 main gun of the future.

 

[Soner1980]

Than there is a big need for a new kind of armor. Because no army can use a 80 or 90 ton tank. The L-55 120mm gun is very brutal. But again, later it will be getting old to like the 105mm tank gun after 50 years : when we have grand childeren in flying MBT's.

But we will see, because having a weapon is simple, using it in a good way is a different story.

I have placed a toppic about the armor type of the Pakistani Al Khalid and no one knows what type of armor. I just keep it on my mind for the T-64 and the T-72 type Combination K or the further advancement of it in the T-64B and later the T-72 with multi-layered composite with the same as Combination K but with added layer of boron carbide and titatium-di-carbide.

It is the most widely used composite armor plating method in Soviet design and now Chinese & Pakistani I think. Because Russia does not give the best, I what used in the later models of the T-80.

 

[extern]

I think, we shouldnt take the tank weight as an isolatad and ultimative factor for tanks' passive defence comparizon. Before this we have to know the internal space that is defended by its armor. The Abrams has relative big internal space, some 1,5 folds bigger that eastern designed tanks. Thus it needs more passive armor weight for the same protection. Let be Al-Khalid's weight is 46t against 65 t of Abrams, it doesnt automatic mean the former is less defended, because what is defending is not weight or volume but the linear thikness of the passive armor.

Also we must take into the account that ERA belong to the standart complectation of Al-Khalid when the western designed tanks use passive armor only. If the turks intend to use ERA in their future indigeniouse tanks, the choice of eastern type passive armor is quite natural. My two pences...

 

[Waylander]

The type of passive armor is not related to the type of ERA system you use. You could also use eastern ERA systems on western armor and vice versa with no problems.

 

[extern]

Yah, but it is true only partly: just like to say 'you can use more passive armor blocks on T-72/90 instead ERA'. Practically, the weight of both type designed tanks is limited. Because of chassis and transmission limitation Abrams hardly can accept more armor in significant amount, not passive nor ERA, and the T-90 (Russian or Chinees) so. Even the eastern tanks are in slightly better position for armor upgrade because they have more 'space' for weight rising IMHO (tactical and strategic mobility issue).

 

[Waylander]

I totally agree with you.
All I wanted to say is that it is unimportant if you combine ERA systems with western or with eastern types of armor. The effect is the same.
In my opinion the best way would be to use the most modern western passive armor you can get and combine it with a good ERA (maybe also Shtora, Kaktus, etc.) system.
And I also agree that Abrams nearly reached its weight limit.

 

[Soner1980]

Yes the Abrams is too heavy, but The Al Khalid also needs some more armor for about a couple of tons maximum without loosing considerable 'dash' performance to protect against newly designed ATGM's and shells.

If Turkey want to design a tank, surely it must not weigh more than 55 tons. So, the Turkish version of the Al Khalid wich weighs 55 tons with More western systems like a German power pack and locally built electronic systems (FCS, defensive aid, etc.) and maybe Western add-on armor. The latter is also able to built locally.

About the armor of wich Pakistan does have, I think it is far superior to the Arjun's armor in terms of efficiency and technology: You need lesser thick plates to get sufficiënt protection level than the Arjun's armor wich is too heavy and far less effective up-armored.

The Turkish MBT with has to built will also be a better tank than the Al Khalid. Turkey does not need the Al Khalid as a sample. And later the Pakistani arms industries will built a more advanced tank than the Al Khalid in the 2015 I think. The Al Khalid is than their second line MBT.

 

[Str8 Thug]

If my memory serves me right, Al Khalid 2 should be in service by around 2012. I look forward to seeing the Turkish MBT, will be impressive among the likes of the Leapord 2.

 

[atilla]

less armor?

I thınk ın the future there wont too much use for MBT there ıs an old sayıng

maybe some of u heard before the more armor they use we wıll use less and be lıghter .. so 54 tons MBT ?? ıs ıt realy be needed ın 10 years from now

thıs ıs why turkısh army wound not not make ıts choıse maybe ????

what u thınk ==?