Pakistan to transfer composite armor technology to Turkey.

[beleg]

Indeed Waylander. The hardest accomplishment for Turkey would be the armor because as i have explained in this and the Leo2A4 transfer thread Turkey has enough tech in the areas regarding electronics and gun. The engine & transmission is another issue but it can be readily bought from various sources..

I dont know if its feasible but we can use the basic armor tech gained from Pakistan and add armor packs which are bought directly from western sources over it. Similar to Leo2A4 to Leo2 PSO modernisation which was displayed in Eurosatory 2006.

The GIAT offer for TSK is very similar to their Azure version of Leclerc but i am not really sure if TSK wants autoloader.

 

[swerve]

Talking about any armor scales is also nonsense. Nobody here knows the real strength and if somebody knows he wouldn't tell. ... For example many people here are sceptical about the Leclerc because he is smaller than the most modern western MBT variants (54 tons)

It weighs about the same as the first models of M1 & Leopard 2, but is smaller. The weight of Leclerc is roughly proportional to the size, when compared to a Leopard 2A5 or M1A2*, so I see no reason why Leclerc shouldn't have similar armour thickness.

*Weight of US tanks is often overstated, as a US ton is 2000lb, i.e. 907 kg. Traditional UK ton is 2240lb, so slightly more than metric - but modern UK tank weights are expressed in metric weights.

 

[Soner1980]

Turkey just want the tech of producing multi layered laminate or composite armor plating. The Al Khalids armor is also not the best, but making it very light with such protection is almost optimal. The Leo-2A5/6 has better armoring level but it must weigh 20 tons more. The engine is smaller and thus making it slightly more economic than the others. The gun has almost excellent capabilities but not like the Leo-2A5. The computer systems are outstanding, don't know if it is close to German counterparts but it is Western based tech. from France. Thermal viewer, 2nd generation I think. A very good tank when used properly and can be deadly like other modern MBT's.

Yes like before told by other members here, the Al Khalid is not one of the best but it comes close to todays standards.

If Turkey produces a MBT also weighing about 55 tons with the same armor type of the Al Khalid, Volkan II electronics, FCS, Thermal sights, 1200-1500hp TDi than it will be good as like the Leopard-2A6 in 2012. Till then there will be a Leo-2A7 and Turkey will be one step back from Germany but equal to Russian or even Israeli MBT's I think.

 

[isthvan]

Well I certainly don t wont to sound to skeptic but I have some doubts about Al Khalids armor protection. You see I cant quite understand all this fuss about it. I mean it is Chinese 1990s tech and if you look at new Chinese type99 MBT which has improved version of that armor and weights 54t I joust cant see how Al Khalids armor will provide decent level of protection... For that matter I also doubt that type99 provides armor protection in the level of LeoII A5...

While I completely understand Turkish needs for development of indigenous MBT I joust think that they could find more capable partners then Pakistan to help them whit development of composite armor plating(while Israel maybe would not sell tech developed for Merkava mk4 they could sell armor tech from Mk3 version especially since IIRC they offered Merkava mk.3 to Turkey in late 1990s...).

 

[SABRE]

Well I certainly don t wont to sound to skeptic but I have some doubts about Al Khalids armor protection. You see I cant quite understand all this fuss about it. I mean it is Chinese 1990s tech and if you look at new Chinese type99 MBT which has improved version of that armor and weights 54t I joust cant see how Al Khalids armor will provide decent level of protection... For that matter I also doubt that type99 provides armor protection in the level of LeoII A5...

The armour of T-90II was replaced by HIT when Al-Khalid went into development. It was replaced with a modular armour, but what type of armour is not known nor are HIT officials willing to answer. [The Pakistanis & Chinese have habbit of aquiring technologies via illegal means/black markets -- in such conditions the officials keep things secret. i.e. About few yrs back it was reported that Pakistan (& China) achieved modular composite aromour know how from Israel. Now Pakistan has no relations with Israel at all. Whether this is true or false it would never been know. Pakistani Parliment raised the question but they were hushed in no time.]

 

[Soner1980]

Ok the Al Khalid is maybe not able to withstand todays ammo from the 125mm or even the 105mm. But in it's weight of 46 tons, it is a very good armored. If the Al Khalid weighed 20 tons more than it was as good as the American or German counterpart in armoring.

The Al Khalid is not 1990's technology. The tank from it is developed is 1990's early technology, the Type-85IIAP or also known as Type-90 MBT from China.

The Pakistani's have made some improvements on their variant and is not the same tank anymore. Like I had written above, the Al Khalid is equipped with French fire control system and with a thermal imager. Wich Chinese tank except the Type-98G is equipped with a thermal imager as standard?

If Turkey uses the Pakistani knowledge, the Al Khalids armor technology, then Turkey can also modify it and perhaps it can be improved by local technicians to get a better variant of it.

I understand you, to getting more modern, western based, more spended in research, armor technology. But European countries are not so friendly as it is seen. Germany putted trouble when our army was fighting against the PKK terrorists to do not use German origin weapons or else...

To produce the German Leopard-2A6 under licence was rejected by the same reason by the greens and now Germany licks our asses to choose again and resume the tender for Turkish tank tender. If Germany had approved, we were know ready to produce the first Leo-2A6TR and the first was seen on 30-08-2006 in our 'victory day' military parade. And now Recep Tayyip Erdogan said to their German counterpart that we will develop and manufacture our own MBT and that we are not interested in German MBT anymore.

Yes, it is to counter this kind of political obstacles. Since Pakistan is a better ally for Turkey than any other Western country. Pakistan always supported Turkish politics and was also to recognize the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus after the 1974 but after Western pressure Pakistan has to take a step back. Europe was never a ally to Turkey, only trade partners and not more.

My answer to your comment: Better a slightly lesser modern armor tech. without problems in the future and full access to technology and the future sale to other countries (like Azerbaycan and Kazachistan) to the a bit more modern, but with restrictions to the commercial usage of it and getting trouble and again hearing to do not use of German origin material to your enemy. The Germans said in WW-II that they will use Brittish tanks against the Brittish to finish them off in North Africa and Erwin Rommel used them like it was German origin: The Matilda Mk.II infantry support tank.

 

[Big-E]

To produce the German Leopard-2A6 under licence was rejected by the same reason by the greens and now Germany licks our asses...

Ouch.. Germany tosses your salad. I doubt Waylander would take too kindly to this kind of speech. FYI in English this is very deragotory phrasing. In the future you might want to say brown-nose or some other less offensive termonolgy.

 

[Wild Weasel]

Something tells me he didn't mean it as a compliment. Frankly, there's no need for that kind of language in this type of forum.

I've heard far worse, of course- but that was completely uncalled for. :flaming

 

[Big-E]

Something tells me he didn't mean it as a compliment. Frankly, there's no need for that kind of language in this type of forum.

I've heard far worse, of course- but that was completely uncalled for. :flaming

It's def not a compliment but I know when I was learning foreign languages I tended to learn the worst words first and found those were the one's I would communicate without realizing how offensive they were.

 

[Soner1980]

Sorry about hat fftopic message but this is the 'picture' of the Turks when doing arms deals with Europe. Europe has a very good arms industry but they give no chance to sell something to us because of the PKK terrorist are the goodguys and the victim is the badguy in some politicians brains.

It was frustrating when heard that the Germans rejected our offer to co-produce 1000 leo-2's for $7 bln. and therefore we would like to but Turkey is now very cautious in taking further steps. There is no guarantee anymore with EU countries because of the politics.

Therefore Turkey spends a lot of money to produce at least under licence or indigenous manufacture. Thats why Turkish technicians wanted Pakistani armor tech to do something. It is maybe not the most modern, but it can bring you far enough 'to catch the wire' and make further advancements.

 

[adsH]

The Whole topic again boils down to Armor, and i reckon the two countries could use Commercial/Academic knowledge of the two nations to co-develop and further there armoring capabilities.

I'm smiling because all Partnering developments (with loose boundaries) boil down to the basics and thats "who owns the fruit" lol IP for commercial sales. If both nations could somehow co develop the next gen of tank then they could both reduce costs for each other.


Guys it'd be nice if we don't insult nations and others by throwing loose comments, Mututal respect is important!

Comments

 

[Waylander]

As said before there is no need for such comments and so I am not going to counter that.

My feeling about weapons market is that there are many reasons for the development and/or buying of a weapon system.
1. Politics
2. Politics
3. ...
12. Money
13. ...
25. needs



And believe me I often enough also don't know what our politicians are thinking.

 

[Soner1980]

Sure all weapons dealers are willing to trade and they also hate politics. But what I have read, is what I had written before in this toppic. If it is true, I'm not sure because I have not heard it from a politician directly. But estimates are like that I have written. Today it is all different, both countries are now good against each other...

But what do you think of the deal? Is the Pakistani armor tech. a good one? It is the tech from the Al Khalid and I know that it is a composition armor but what type it is, is a good kept secret I have understood. Please your answer...

 

[Waylander]

What I think is that the Pakistanis were not really able to improve the armor they got from China. By the time they got it they had lesser experience with special armor like this than China and so it is hard to believe that they were able to improve it much more. Even with the help of western countrys.
And I never heard that western companies also helped them with the armor besides their help with electronics, engine, etc.
You are definitely getting armor tech which could be a good base for further developments. I doubt that you are able to get state of the art armor out of it, but you could come close if you are willing to fund the armor project with much, much money.

 

[Ghost-Recon]

Guys, im not sure if many of you are aware of the Sabra III upgrades. Turkey is getting alot of know how technology transfer from these upgrades, we have pretty much paid 5 million per tank for these upgrades. Read the following

"" SABRA III upgrade program which is to be completed by 2007. The upgrade program encompasses thermal imaging and Elbit Knight-III fire control system (including stabilizer and ballistic computer), 120mm Merkawa-IV L-42 smoothbore cannon (compatible with LAHAT guided ammunition) and fume extractor, automatic fire and explosion suppression system, Merkawa-IV add-on armor technology and explosive reactive armor (ERA), 1100 hp MTU diesel engine/RENK transmission, full system modernization and integration capability, new improved Merkawa-IV tracks, RWR/IR warning system and NBC protection.

The remaining M60A1 and M60A3 tanks (1102)are likely to undergo the same upgrade process in Turkey with more involvement of Turkish companies, upon completion of the upgrade of first 170 tanks. "

To summerise it all up, its pretty much like a new tank
- New Thick Armour (Merkava 4 Armour, one of the best ARMOUR in the world)
- New 1100hp Engine & Transmission
- New 120mm Merkawa-IV L-42 smoothbore Gun
- New Elbit Knight-III Fire control with night&thermal imaging
- RWR/IR warning system and NBC protection
- State of the art stabilizer and ballistic computer


My personal opinion on the Indeginous Turkish Tanks armour is, this armour will be very simular to Merkawa 4's armour. As for the Turkish & Pakistan engineers working on the ideginous Turkish MBT, this isnt the case. Turkey will get some hints and tips from Pakistan, however i highly doubt the Turkish MBT's armour will consist of Pakistan help. Al Khalid is a good 3rd generation tank, but Turkey is building a modern state of the art 4th generation tank. What is happening is, Aselsan is actually working on the Al-Khalid II's FCS and computers..

The Turkish MBT will not have Eagle Eye/Volkan II FCS but a new generation digital FCS. Aselsan has been funded $50million to work on the Volkan III FCS just recently and this project to be completed in 3.5 years.

When the SABRA III deal was signed, the deal was the first 170 to be upgraded in Israel and the rest 1100 to be upgraded all in Turkey. Now, if SABRA III is receving Merkawa 4 armour and the upgrades are taking place in Turkey, obviously this Merkawa 4 armour will be made Turkey.

 

[Waylander]

If somebody puts some new armor onto your old tanks you don't get anything really helpfull to know out of it. You need the technical specifications not the pure armor.

 

[adsH]

IWhat I think is that the Pakistanis were not really able to improve the armor they got from China. By the time they got it they had lesser experience with special armor like this than China and so it is hard to believe that they were able to improve it much more. Even with the help of western countrys.
And I never heard that western companies also helped them with the armor besides their help with electronics, engine, etc.
You are definitely getting armor tech which could be a good base for further developments. I doubt that you are able to get state of the art armor out of it, but you could come close if you are willing to fund the armor project with much, much money.

I'd be cautious before claiming with certainty that Pakistani's are unable to conduct quality research. They Do have a tendency of not taunting there adversaries with claims of conducting advance defense research. They never disclose or "they often confuse" their monitors.

And Just because here in the west it costs huge ammounts of currency to conduct adavance research, doesn't necessarily mean it would cost the same in that part of the world.

 

[beleg]

@ghost recon


The armor in Sabras will come in packages from Israel. They wont be produced here. So there is no armor know how gained from Israel. Period.

Other things you have written are basicly what we have written above so they are correct.Thanks for summing it up nce again in a proper way.

 

[tphuang]

I'd be cautious before claiming with certainty that Pakistani's are unable to conduct quality research. They Do have a tendency of not taunting there adversaries with claims of conducting advance defense research. They never disclose or "they often confuse" their monitors.

And Just because here in the west it costs huge ammounts of currency to conduct adavance research, doesn't necessarily mean it would cost the same in that part of the world.

nobody is putting down Pakistanis here. It's just that Pakistan simply does not have as much much money to develop and test the materials like more traditional MBT producers. It did cost China astronomical amount of money to do the same research too, so it's not something just restricted to the West.

 

[Waylander]

And the main key is not only money but experience!
It has been a long process till the western tanks had the armor they have now and developing goes on.
I really don't want to bother any Pakistani but in the end I don't believe they are able to develop a state of the art armor which is totally comparable to western armor types.