Pakistan Air Force [PAF] News and Discussions

[powerslavenegi]

You need to do a hell lot a RE-Search

we know what engine the aircraft uses. We know most of the avionics it uses. We know that J-10 has numerous features that reduces RCS that F-16 do not have. And if you really think flankers have missiles that have 120 km NEZ, then nothing more I say can convince you otherwise.

We know that China received no PERO tech from Russians. Look, I suggest you do a little research on plaaf first. And that goes for uaf too. Plaaf takes a lot of time and effort to follow and requires a lot of patience.

Mr. tphuang you gotta be lying if you say J-10 doesnt use Russian engines,secondly as for the J-10 radar run a search on google "J-10 radar" and you would come to know what I am saying apart from http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/j10.asp (which claims J-10 is reported to be fitted with an indigenous KLJ-3 pulse-Doppler fire-control radar ),however most of the other hits like aeronautics,fighter-planes and many forums including Pak def forum speculate about a Russian phased/slotted array Radar ' Phazotron RP-35 "Zhemchug"'.As for the armaments every one knows Chinese have used R-77 seeker on SD-10 here help yourself www.strategycenter.net/research/pubID.14/pub_detail.asp.I hope that now you all will stop cribbing about so called cutting edge technology in J-10.Please do not argue for the sake of it If you know something about J-10 which people here do not, then please do the needful .

 

[MG 3]

Hey guys, need help!
Since im am no good in the air (i am INFANTRY), i need to know that is it true that the F-16's that we are getting dont have electronic warfare capabilities. Meaning they can not be integrated in to the army's newly established or establishing netcentric warfare capabilities.

 

[SABRE]

powerslavenegi; with out going into technical side ... let me tell you that China doesnt disclose any information regarding its products/projects to public untill the product/project is a success and has served for some time. Releasing/Disclosing J-10's info on Avionics and Engine is far off thing when 'China doesnt even accept that the aircraft exists' Even though they them selves have leaked all these pics. They showed J-10 to Musharaf and it was all on every news channel in the world but still China wont accept its existance.

However, one of the senior evaluation officer and test pilot of JF-17 has had a thorough look on J-10. Now, that pilot is famous in PAF for flying almost every thing there is to fly. Respecting the Chinese concerns about J-10's avionics information he avoided the technical details and only told the press that J-10 is atleast near to F-18 [dint say A/B or E/F] in capability but has superior manuverbility and that the aircraft has some avionics/features that are currently only available on new gen fighters like EF-2000 and Rafale.

Now in the begining many defence related media dint believe him but when JF-17 PT-4 was released with avionics adopted from J-10, which are actually only available on EF-2000 and Rafale & some features inspired from F-22, the media tried to get back to the PAF for info - woundering if JF-17 has been upgraded with such features, what else does the J-10 has on it?. However, PAF has also adopted same policy as Chinese have for J-10.

 

[powerslavenegi]

Exaggeration ha ha ......

powerslavenegi; with out going into technical side ... let me tell you that China doesnt disclose any information regarding its products/projects to public untill the product/project is a success and has served for some time. Releasing/Disclosing J-10's info on Avionics and Engine is far off thing when 'China doesnt even accept that the aircraft exists' Even though they them selves have leaked all these pics. They showed J-10 to Musharaf and it was all on every news channel in the world but still China wont accept its existance.

However, one of the senior evaluation officer and test pilot of JF-17 has had a thorough look on J-10. Now, that pilot is famous in PAF for flying almost every thing there is to fly. Respecting the Chinese concerns about J-10's avionics information he avoided the technical details and only told the press that J-10 is atleast near to F-18 [dint say A/B or E/F] in capability but has superior manuverbility and that the aircraft has some avionics/features that are currently only available on new gen fighters like EF-2000 and Rafale.

Now in the begining many defence related media dint believe him but when JF-17 PT-4 was released with avionics adopted from J-10, which are actually only available on EF-2000 and Rafale & some features inspired from F-22, the media tried to get back to the PAF for info - woundering if JF-17 has been upgraded with such features, what else does the J-10 has on it?. However, PAF has also adopted same policy as Chinese have for J-10.

Mr Sabre I think an authentic URL would have done more good to your stand rather than claims of a PAF pilot in China.Anyways would interested to know what features of Rafale,EF-200,F-22 are accomodated in J-10(please dont tell me wings,rudder and stuff :haha ).You know what those similies "J-10 is atleast near to F-18 [dint say A/B or E/F] in capability but has superior manuverbility and that the aircraft has some avionics/features that are currently only available on new gen fighters like EF-2000 and Rafale.
" are just an Exaggeration or a spat of Nationalism at it's best.As for Chinese keeping their exploits secret well man you are contradicting claims by UAF he says J-10 has participated in exercises against Flankers and won and stuff like that and you say China doesnt disclose facts about unfinished product.

 

[MG 3]

Dont worry guys we will all know what the J-10 is all about when Pakistan gets them. And yeah anybody please answer my question.

 

[ahussains]

Technical Abilities

Guys i want to know which AIR FORCE is much technically STRONG the PAF or IAF (indians) and how many planes they loss in the peace time and what is the loosing ratio of both the AIR FORCE

 

[adsH]

Hey guys, need help!
Since im am no good in the air (i am INFANTRY), i need to know that is it true that the F-16's that we are getting dont have electronic warfare capabilities. Meaning they can not be integrated in to the army's newly established or establishing netcentric warfare capabilities.

They would almost certainly have Either British or a foreign military variant of the EW system, i believe they won't receive the UAF's Proprietary variant. i'd think (personal opinion) they would be better off with the british variant! Something the Turks are acquiring!

 

[pshamim]

Sometimes, things are done differently to overcome the hurdles by the US Government. Ever heard of the munition control at the State Department. Munitions Control Department has been used to scuttle the opposition in the Congress. DRFM can easily be sold to Turkey or any one of the NATO allies without much problem. The allies then will be able to sell it to another country. All they need is to inform the Munitions Control and State Department gives their OK without the sale ever needing to be notified.

There are too many loopholes to circumvent the Congress that public is unaware of and which are used quite ocassionally. I personally have been involved in few in the past.

 

[tphuang]

Mr. tphuang you gotta be lying if you say J-10 doesnt use Russian engines,secondly as for the J-10 radar run a search on google "J-10 radar" and you would come to know what I am saying apart from http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/j10.asp (which claims J-10 is reported to be fitted with an indigenous KLJ-3 pulse-Doppler fire-control radar ),however most of the other hits like aeronautics,fighter-planes and many forums including Pak def forum speculate about a Russian phased/slotted array Radar ' Phazotron RP-35 "Zhemchug"'.As for the armaments every one knows Chinese have used R-77 seeker on SD-10 here help yourself www.strategycenter.net/research/pubID.14/pub_detail.asp.I hope that now you all will stop cribbing about so called cutting edge technology in J-10.Please do not argue for the sake of it If you know something about J-10 which people here do not, then please do the needful .

powerslavenegi - a noob like yourself should listen to people who have followed the plane as lot more. I have no blabbed off the entire conversation. I simply asked you what you know. And frankly, it is sad to read this kind of rambling. Now, I'm not saying that other posters on this thread are more knowledgeable on this issue. But, they seem to be a lot more modest.

when did I say J-10 doesn't use Russian engines?
It uses mostly AL-31FN and a limited number uses WS-10A.

All the stuff on the so called zhemchug was posted pre-2005. It became very clear after that point that the Russians did not export any radar to China for J-10. How do we know this? Exports from Russia to China are documented. A bunch of IRST was exported to China for flankers and we even heard about that. How do you think we would not know about 100+ sets of radar for J-10. As for sinodefence, I can tell you right now that the stats given on sinodefence are not correct. And I'm saying this as a moderator of sinodefenceforum.

As for SD-10, do you realize that J-10 does not use SD-10? It uses this thing called PL-12? before you blab off. Let me tell you this, SD-10 is a 180 KG AAM and PL-12 is a 198 KG AAM. So, they cannot be the same thing. SD-10 was developed strictly for export.

As for that strategycenter article, I think I can comment on Richard Fisher articles more than most people, since I've read them many times. What we do know is that Richard Fisher presents the most updated information available in public sources and adds his own opinion in his articles. However, the public sources tend to be extremely inaccurate on PLA news, so he tend to have retracted what he mentionned on certain articles in latter articles. Now, the article you posted in 2002. That is extremely old. As late as 2005, Richard Fisher associated kvant to the radar on 052C, but he no longer gives credit to kvant, since it is apparent that kvant did not help.

As for the issue of SD-10's relation to R-77, we don't know right now how much help it got from Agat. Now, if you wish to learn more about SD-10, I would be very happy to explain about it.

 

[powerslavenegi]

Ego eh.....

I think Ego has taken precedence and hence my post deleted anyways,I just dropped in to clarify that I never claimed J-10 uses sd-10 infact in my previous post I had mentioned the PL series ,Anyways Mr Tphuang if you could take trouble of searching google you would find that PL-12 is no different in terms of Seeker tech ,it also uses the Agat seeker aboard the R-77.Here have a look

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/7/24/174404.shtml

http://www.softwar.net/c801.html

:

 

[MG 3]

They would almost certainly have Either British or a foreign military variant of the EW system, i believe they won't receive the UAF's Proprietary variant. i'd think (personal opinion) they would be better off with the british variant! Something the Turks are acquiring!

Thanks alot bro! Good to hear that, because our netcentric is also more based on the european side.

 

[umair]

I think Ego has taken precedence and hence my post deleted anyways,I just dropped in to clarify that I never claimed J-10 uses sd-10 infact in my previous post I had mentioned the PL series ,Anyways Mr Tphuang if you could take trouble of searching google you would find that PL-12 is no different in terms of Seeker tech ,it also uses the Agat seeker aboard the R-77.Here have a look

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/7/24/174404.shtml

http://www.softwar.net/c801.html

:

You sure do have thick skin kiddo. These people know what they are talking about(both tp and Sabre) and their repute on this forum comes from being correct with and posting ahead of other forums news etc which has then turned out to be 100% true. You should know that here the authenticity and repute of a poster is judged by the above criteris not how many half assed links they post in their support. Bachay as far as Sabre's post is concerned which you taunted as exaggerating, it's cent% true. How I know that, that is between me and Sabre and both him,Pshamim and myself know more about what the PAF does than we choose to let on. Why? because we know that noobs like you want links in support of every post and not every thing is on the internet. And as for the SD-10 using Agat seeker:lol2 and J-10 engine issue, only the first few are using Russian engines rest the WS-10.
A suggestion:idea2 go cool down, read the forum rules, correct you'r attitude and then comeback and post in a civilized manner.
Consider this warning#1.

 

[powerslavenegi]

Cool man

Wow so the credibility of a post is judged by who posts it rather by the references furbished this is hillarious .Oh yes Mr Sabre's claim that J-10 is superior to F-18 well it will be intresting wnat Big Eye,Waylander and Co have to say.Anyways there was nothing to laugh at the fact that SD-10 and PL-12 use R-77 seeker tech if you know what seeker it uses then please let us know we would be obliged else WYSIWYG(What you see is what you get).As for Ws-10 engine yup man pray that it materialises early for Russians aint gonna allow Al-31FN on PAF J-10's.I think I havent breeched the forum rules any where except differing in opinion.I would be happy to endorse anyone's views who would substantiate his/her claims with credible references.

 

[radiosilence]

Wow so the credibility of a post is judged by who posts it rather by the references furbished this is hillarious .Oh yes Mr Sabre's claim that J-10 is superior to F-18 well it will be intresting wnat Big Eye,Waylander and Co have to say.Anyways there was nothing to laugh at the fact that SD-10 and PL-12 use R-77 seeker tech if you know what seeker it uses then please let us know we would be obliged else WYSIWYG(What you see is what you get).As for Ws-10 engine yup man pray that it materialises early for Russians aint gonna allow Al-31FN on PAF J-10's.I think I havent breeched the forum rules any where except differing in opinion.I would be happy to endorse anyone's views who would substantiate his/her claims with credible references.

A few members have stated that a lot of credible info on the j 10 is not in public domain yet. its seem like you are trying to start a flame war.

 

[umair]

Here the past record of a persons' posts being proven right by subsequent events etc is held to be more valueable than any two bit internet link. Get that into you'r head. And yes I know which seeker it uses but then again you would want a link where there is'nt any.

 

[uaf]

Wow so the credibility of a post is judged by who posts it rather by the references furbished this is hillarious .Oh yes Mr Sabre's claim that J-10 is superior to F-18 well it will be intresting wnat Big Eye,Waylander and Co have to say.Anyways there was nothing to laugh at the fact that SD-10 and PL-12 use R-77 seeker tech if you know what seeker it uses then please let us know we would be obliged else WYSIWYG(What you see is what you get).As for Ws-10 engine yup man pray that it materialises early for Russians aint gonna allow Al-31FN on PAF J-10's.I think I havent breeched the forum rules any where except differing in opinion.I would be happy to endorse anyone's views who would substantiate his/her claims with credible references.

well lets accept Sabre ,tphuang , Umair are all wrong literally lying only powerslavenegi is right and Su-27 and Su-30 are the best planes ever made and will have no competitor even in next 2 decades … lets just put dust on flames ...

Come one guys try to understand he is our Indian friend doesn’t it explain everything to you all

 

[tphuang]

I think Ego has taken precedence and hence my post deleted anyways,I just dropped in to clarify that I never claimed J-10 uses sd-10 infact in my previous post I had mentioned the PL series ,Anyways Mr Tphuang if you could take trouble of searching google you would find that PL-12 is no different in terms of Seeker tech ,it also uses the Agat seeker aboard the R-77.Here have a look

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/7/24/174404.shtml

http://www.softwar.net/c801.html

:

lol, you are believing in newsmax and softwar.net?

You placed PL-12 and SD-10 together. What does that say? You think they are equivalent in performance and I tell you that is not true.

Anyone who has followed PLA for more than a couple of months will tell you those sources are not accurate at all. Do you want me to take a couple of newsmax articles and digest them for you?

As I said, before, I'm not arguing for or against Agat helping out on the seeker for PL-12. I'm saying that there isn't anything close to conclusive evidence either way.

Wow so the credibility of a post is judged by who posts it rather by the references furbished this is hillarious .Oh yes Mr Sabre's claim that J-10 is superior to F-18 well it will be intresting wnat Big Eye,Waylander and Co have to say.Anyways there was nothing to laugh at the fact that SD-10 and PL-12 use R-77 seeker tech if you know what seeker it uses then please let us know we would be obliged else WYSIWYG(What you see is what you get).As for Ws-10 engine yup man pray that it materialises early for Russians aint gonna allow Al-31FN on PAF J-10's.I think I havent breeched the forum rules any where except differing in opinion.I would be happy to endorse anyone's views who would substantiate his/her claims with credible references

yes, when it comes to PLA news. The poster is a lot more important than the source. There are only about 3 or 4 sources that remotely comes close to reporting PLA news in the west:
JDW
Kanwa defense
Richard Fisher
But even they consistently get things wrong.

As for WS-10 engine, it is in production right now. If you can read Chinese, you can actually follow its status if you have enough time to check up avic1 website everyday.

If you want to read up on J-10 and get sources. You can come to SDF, we have a huge thread on J-10 and many old threads on them. I've posted enough sources on there, you can find as much as you need.

As for J-10 vs su-27/su-30, there have been at least 2 military magazines in China that posted vague reports from those confrontations.

 

[airmarshall]

Pakistan to get F-16s, but with a difference

How could a sovereign nation accept such conditions..

http://dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006\08\20\story_20-8-2006_pg7_5

Pakistan to get F-16s, but with a difference
By Khalid Hasan

WASHINTON: Pakistan, according to a senior US official, has agreed to an “unprecedented” security plan, including an “enhanced and end-use monitoring programme”, which obliges Islamabad to “comply” with conditions laid down by Washington for F-16-related bases and facilities before the equipment is supplied.

While Pakistan has made no comment on the July 20 testimony of John Hillen, assistant secretary, Bureau of Political-Military Affairs in the State Department, before the House International Relations Committee, the conditions Islamabad has accepted would appear to have reduced Pakistan’s ability to use the advanced air defence and assault systems only under given conditions.

Hillen told the House committee, “We, of course, have had a US government security survey of their bases and facilities. We’ve put into the deal that they must comply with the approved security plans for their F-16-related bases and facilities before we’ll release any systems in the sale. We will have a US presence to monitor compliance with the security plan requirements, a very enhanced and end-use monitoring programme. Routine access to F-16 aircraft equipment and munitions is in restricted areas and limited to Pakistan air force personnel that are pre-approved for such. There is a two-man rule, so to speak, for access to this equipment and restricted areas, and F-16 flights outside of Pakistan ... must be approved in advance by the United States government.”

Hillen said he would get into more detail on “this extraordinary security plan” designed to ensure control of “combat unauthorised proliferation we have put into place.”

He added, “We place all sorts of conditionality onto getting arms sales from the United States that protects American security interests and that protects exactly the sort of proliferation problem you alluded to. So I think this (F-16) sale works to exactly the opposite.”

He added, “I think it will give us access and influence in a country and in which we’ll be able to see if there are any dynamics of that sort and be able to be involved in a leadership position, rather than just standing by if this happens.”

 

[Transient]

It is only natural. Purchasing a weapon only allows you use to it - not to the wilful dismantling of it for purpose of technology mining or to allow others access to it for tech mining. The technology Pakistan requested is top notch, something China cannot provide. You could say the measures to safeguard American technology imposed on Pakistan is discriminatory, but there are indications that Pakistan allowed China access to its American sourced weapon systems in the past. So they are not unreasonable measures at all.

 

[mysterious]

Yeah right! Not discriminatory? The use of F-16s outside Pakistani airspace is to be only carried out with a permission sought in advance from the United States government? That is just a load of bullocks! Those F-16s are now, frankly, TRASH since now it is required that PAF first 'ask' US if they can use F-16s to counter IAF or not in the event of hostilities.

PAF should simply dump the deal and try to secure Gripens instead.