PAK-FA / T-50: Russian 5th Generation Fighter

[LancerMc]

Don’t count out European designs. It is very true some nations did not have a fighter greater in quality then a F-15 until the Eurofighter and Rafale. Though the Eurofighter and Rafale are above and beyond more advance then the F-15C fighters. The only fighter that would compare to the F-15C was the Mirage 2000 and some of its most advance fighter and attack versions. I would believe the newest F-15E's are more advance then the attack capabilities of the Eurofighter and Rafale. When Tranche 2 and later lots of Rafale come on line in the next few years they will be truly advance aircraft.

If I remember correctly General John Jumper (Former Chief of Staff of the Air Force) flew a Eurofighter and said it was truly a awesome aircraft and capable aircraft. I would truly trust his opinion about the capabilities of the Eurofighter.

The Gripen has struggled since it was always the simplest of the 5th Gen fighters. Though one advantage the Gripen has is the Swedish militaries data link systems. Next to the F-22, the Gripen has the best data links for any modern fighter and with this technology becoming more important, the Gripen has an important edge. Beside being affordable compared to other aircraft this is another reason why the Gripen has received a lot of orders from many of the new NATO countries.

The two most important things missing from all 5th Generation fighters is super-cruise and AESA radar. The Eurofighter won't even see any of these improvements until at least Tranche 3, if it is ever ordered. The French are working on an AESA radar for the Rafale, but as far I have read no super-cruise. Saab seems to have no plans in the near future to add any of these technologies to the Gripen.

So in reality with Europe still catching up, the U.S. will being the only nation with a true 5th Gen fighter. Russia say's they will make an aircraft with the capabilities of the F-22 at the price of the F-35. The whole idea is absurd, since Europe can't even make an aircraft like the F-22 and the closest two contenders cost over $70 million dollars each.

 

[Sea Dog]

well the russian ambassador to india has stated that india and russia are developing the 5 th gen fighter.

here is the link:

http://www.hindu.com/2006/02/16/stories/2006021604411300.htm

Russia, India designing interceptor fighter

Prabhakkar Sharma
Call for stronger ties in hi-tech and information technology





[SIZE=-2][/SIZE]

Vyacheslav Trubnikov — Photo: C.V. Subrahmanyam

VISAKHAPATNAM: Russia and India were designing a unique interceptor fighter of the fifth generation, Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary of the Russian Federation, Vyacheslav I. Trubnikov, said in an exclusive interview to The Hindu on Tuesday.
The Russian ambassador was here on an invitation from the Navy to witness the President's Fleet Review (PFR) from February 11 to 13. Describing President A.P.J. Kalam as the "Father" of the Brahmos missile, he said India and Russia had now reached an agreement for designing, producing and also marketing the product. "It is a brilliant example of international cooperation. Starting from design, it is something new. It goes beyond the relationship of a buyer and seller. It is a mutual effort everywhere," he said.
In the sphere of space too, Russia had assisted India in its efforts to become a "power to reckon with," Mr. Trubnikov noted. He said that during his visit to Bangalore sometime ago he saw two satellites being assembled which were later launched into space. "It was a completely indigenous project. But I am proud of Russia's involvement in the initial stages of India's emergence in space research."
While the Russian Ambassador was satisfied with military cooperation, he called for stronger ties in the spheres of hi-tech, information technology, biotechnology and nano technology. He said India was now a different country compared to about 15 years ago. Also, today's Russia is not the USSR. Both countries had to work together, particularly in trade and commerce where India was lagging behind, he said. The volume of trade with India was a meagre $2 billion while it was as high as $18 billion between India and China.
Mr. Trubnikov, who left for Raipur and Bhilai to speak to local leaders about modernising the steel plants, said he would like to compare the progress of the Bhilai steel plant with that of the Visakhapatnam Steel Plant (VSP). Bhilai was older than VSP and Bokaro came up later. He would like to see continuing cooperation in metallurgy and heavy industry, which were vital to a country's economy. Speaking about the rupee debt, he said it was around $3 billion and to be cleared 2037. But if Russia could invest $1 billion of it immediately in the steel and heavy industry, the rest could be settled later.

I can't take anything from a Russian source (re: Ambassador) serious.

 

[tphuang]

But to imply that it took Europe 30 years to develop and begin deployment of something that can challenge the F-15, is a very accurate statement. For the past 30 years, nothing that the Western European forces flew could really challange an F-15. In 1974, when the F-15 began deployment to operational units, Western Europe's premier fighters were the F-4 (UK/GER) & Mirage F-1's (F), which were fine aircraft for their time but were just not in the same league as the F-15.

Now the RAFALE & EF2000, outstanding machines in their own, can handle an F-15. But unfortunately for the European fighters, the F-22 is also entering service at the same time they are, and the F-22clearly outclasses both of them (praise the EF200 all you want). It sort of looks like a replay of 1974 all over again.

Ask yourself the following question-without forgetting to praise the Typhoon: What would you rather ride into combat? An F-22, a RAFALE, or an EF2000?

I think everyone in this thread would come up with the same answer.
:

well, I won't use the word challenge. I prefer beat. Remember the incident where that one typhoon managed to beat two F-15Es in that one incident at Lake District. Of course, 15E are not the air superiority fighter that 15C are. Still, quite an accomplisment for typhoon. That's why I would put typhoon over Rafale. Gripen is not a 5th generation fighter. It has nothing that would warrant that kind of title. It's just a cheap and manuverable fighter that serves the interception role quite well for a country with small airspace. To put it on the same level as typhoon and Rafale is an insult to the other two. I don't even think it can even take on the latest block50s let alone block 60s.

As for F-22, the Europeans really have no need for such aircraft really. If you think about it, the Russians don't have anything right now on the level of typhoon and Rafale. That's what they were designed to beat and they serve that role quite well. I'd be interested to see how the typhoon fare against JSF.

 

[Sea Dog]

well, I won't use the word challenge. I prefer beat. Remember the incident where that one typhoon managed to beat two F-15Es in that one incident at Lake District. Of course, 15E are not the air superiority fighter that 15C are. Still, quite an accomplisment for typhoon. That's why I would put typhoon over Rafale. Gripen is not a 5th generation fighter. It has nothing that would warrant that kind of title. It's just a cheap and manuverable fighter that serves the interception role quite well for a country with small airspace. To put it on the same level as typhoon and Rafale is an insult to the other two. I don't even think it can even take on the latest block50s let alone block 60s.

As for F-22, the Europeans really have no need for such aircraft really. If you think about it, the Russians don't have anything right now on the level of typhoon and Rafale. That's what they were designed to beat and they serve that role quite well. I'd be interested to see how the typhoon fare against JSF.

IMO, Grippen is a modern-day F-5/MIG21. If marketed well, it could sale like hotcakes at a county fair.

Typhoon should fare well against the F23's, if it can detect it before the latter uses is low RCS to sneak up. Typhoon biggest worry against the F23 is in the sales arena. Every sale of an F23 is one nail in the coffin of Typhoon production (and the recurring doubts in Germany over the numbers do not help).

Still, the F23 is not designed to be either an interceptor nor an air superiority fighter. That's the Typhoon's forte.

Interesting how the Lake Country episode reported in the SCOTSMAN was supposedly "hushed up" for a while for fear of causing US blushes. Well the Typhoon has been to Nellis, when there were F22's playing. Is the same RAF person who leaked the Lake Country episode worried that reporting the results of any training engagements between those two may cause more blushes....perhaps in Europe?
:daz

 

[tphuang]

IMO, Grippen is a modern-day F-5/MIG21. If marketed well, it could sale like hotcakes at a county fair.

Typhoon should fare well against the F23's, if it can detect it before the latter uses is low RCS to sneak up. Typhoon biggest worry against the F23 is in the sales arena. Every sale of an F23 is one nail in the coffin of Typhoon production (and the recurring doubts in Germany over the numbers do not help).

Still, the F23 is not designed to be either an interceptor nor an air superiority fighter. That's the Typhoon's forte.

Interesting how the Lake Country episode reported in the SCOTSMAN was supposedly "hushed up" for a while for fear of causing US blushes. Well the Typhoon has been to Nellis, when there were F22's playing. Is the same RAF person who leaked the Lake Country episode worried that reporting the results of any training engagements between those two may cause more blushes....perhaps in Europe?
:daz

I guess they are still embarrassed over the claim that the typhoon spotted F-22 from 80 miles out and then it turned out no F-22 was flying at that time. I'm assuming that F-23 is your designation for JSF? You are confusing me now. Typhoon might be an even match for the export variant of JSF which doesn't have all the stealth features.

 

[Whiskyjack]

I guess they are still embarrassed over the claim that the typhoon spotted F-22 from 80 miles out and then it turned out no F-22 was flying at that time. I'm assuming that F-23 is your designation for JSF? You are confusing me now. Typhoon might be an even match for the export variant of JSF which doesn't have all the stealth features.

I think that we some times get bogged down into platform discussions and forget the broader picture. Stealth is good now will it be as good in 10 years?

Also everyone is forgetting that the F-22, F-35, Typhoon, Gripen etc are designed to hook into many other platforms to perform their role, from AWACS to UAVs, with these integrated platforms it is more than possible for a much less aircraft to defeat a more capable aircraft.

I remember reading how Tornado F3s were ‘knocking’ down F-15s, before the Eagles even new they were there, using AWACS. Only an exercise but still an idea of what I mean.

 

[Sea Dog]

I guess they are still embarrassed over the claim that the typhoon spotted F-22 from 80 miles out and then it turned out no F-22 was flying at that time. I'm assuming that F-23 is your designation for JSF? You are confusing me now. Typhoon might be an even match for the export variant of JSF which doesn't have all the stealth features.

I can't believe I wrote F-23. My bad!!:tomato


In the end I don't know if anyone would purchase a downgraded version of the JSF. Sort of like when we tried to sell the F-16/79 (with the F-4's J79 engine). No one would bite on the downgraded version.

 

[LancerMc]

Whiskey Jack is correct, AWACS aircraft are important part of air superiority and it no wonder so many nations are starting to acquire them. Any modern fighter linked to AWACS will have advantage over a superior aircraft that doesn't have AWACS. Though against an F-22 that is unlikely because their essentially a "mini-AWACS."

The Eurofighter will easily be able to defeat F-15C in air to air combat, but the F-15E will still have a superior ground attack capability for a considerable amount of time. Though the Storm Shadow and Brimstone will bring certain advantages to the Eurofigther.

The Rafale is an excellent fighter, though far as I know does not have near the air to ground weapons capability of the Eurofigther. This mostly due to use of France's small variety of PGM's.

The Gripen is a 5th Gen fighter, but barely in the sense of technology of the Eurofighter and F-22. Sweden is quite capable of updating the Gripen with more modern technology. Saab has had plans for some time to apply conformal tanks to the Gripen eventually to improve its range. Plus don't forget BAe is part of program. I would think the Gripen and the Eurofighter will work well with one another. Though not sophisticated like the EF-200 and F-22, the Gripen is an effective and cheap 5th Gen fighter for small countries that want to have the ability to work with other Western nations in wartime. Plus the Meteor will give it a great capability in air to air combat.

:flame

 

[tphuang]

I can't believe I wrote F-23. My bad!!:tomato


In the end I don't know if anyone would purchase a downgraded version of the JSF. Sort of like when we tried to sell the F-16/79 (with the F-4's J79 engine). No one would bite on the downgraded version.

well, I can't imagine the US would offer full-blown version of JSF to anyone but UK and Australia (maybe Canada). At least in the beginning. Once you see more stealth or stealthy fighters coming out, then full-blown versions might be offered.

It's more like:
here it is, it's better than anything else in the market. Take it or leave it.

 

[Sea Dog]

Would this aircraft able to land vertically and rotate 360 degree while staying still in air and could fire a missile from still position and could decrease its speed quickly by doing cobra manuver can any one answer all these I think JSF can do much which i have written

Any pilot that actually considers performing that airshow cobra crap in combat--stupidly throwing away all your energy and just sitting in the air like an idiot--deserves to die, and in combat will quickly die.....in a very violent way.:nutkick

 

[410Cougar]

SeaDog,

Love that line dude...:laugh

Attila

 

[KGB]

Hypothetical question:

If 2 stealth aircraft had a go against each other, say 2 F-22's for example, would this mean

1. BVR and radar guided missiles wouldn't really be usefull because there's nothing to target?

2. IR guided missles would have to be fired from a tail position since the engines are baffled?

Does this mean the future of air combat would be in dogfighting and gunnery?

 

[highsea]

...Remember the incident where that one typhoon managed to beat two F-15Es in that one incident at Lake District. Of course, 15E are not the air superiority fighter that 15C are. Still, quite an accomplisment for typhoon.

tphuang, I don't think anyone took that news blurb seriously. Pick-up games are just not allowed, not in the USAF, not in the RAF.

Enthusiastic reporters notwithstanding, that incident just didn't happen the way it was reported.

 

[tphuang]

tphuang, I don't think anyone took that news blurb seriously. Pick-up games are just not allowed, not in the USAF, not in the RAF.

Enthusiastic reporters notwithstanding, that incident just didn't happen the way it was reported.

alright, even aside from that. Typhoon, although it got beat out in the Singapore contract, actually was the only one that managed to take down 3 Singapore F-16s in singapore's own evaluation testing. Neither Rafale nor F-15 were able to do that. Of course, it lost out due to its lack of multi-role capability + higher cost, but its air superiority capability was fine.

 

[Whiskyjack]

alright, even aside from that. Typhoon, although it got beat out in the Singapore contract, actually was the only one that managed to take down 3 Singapore F-16s in singapore's own evaluation testing. Neither Rafale nor F-15 were able to do that. Of course, it lost out due to its lack of multi-role capability + higher cost, but its air superiority capability was fine.

I understand that the Typhoon lost out also due to the fact it was not available in a timeframe suitable to the SAF.

 

[tphuang]

I understand that the Typhoon lost out also due to the fact it was not available in a timeframe suitable to the SAF.

If I understood correctly, the timeframe unsuitability was a matter of Tranche 3 (the multirole version) not coming out soon enough for SAF.

 

[Whiskyjack]

If I understood correctly, the timeframe unsuitability was a matter of Tranche 3 (the multirole version) not coming out soon enough for SAF.

My understanding as well. Singapore went for the aircraft that most suited it's requirements and was avalable when they wanted it.

 

[Sea Dog]

My understanding as well. Singapore went for the aircraft that most suited it's requirements and was avalable when they wanted it.

.....and even though Dassault offered a nice deal, RAFALE failed to meet many of its advertised performand, plus Singapore was not willing to fund the development costs needed for RAFALE to meet their requirements.

Makes you wonder that if the Euro pols had not bickered soooooo much over costs & numbers during the development phase which caused ungodly delays, the Tranche 3 variant may have been available much sooner.

 

[410Cougar]

Enthusiastic reporters notwithstanding, that incident just didn't happen the way it was reported.

That being said, is it possible that it was a future selling point for interested nations like the Saudi's who are now bringing on Typhoons for their Tornadoes?

As far as airshow routines go, its great seeing a plane that is totally maneuverable in the air. I think, though, that reality should have it fly a fighting demo against a possible opponent.

That being taken into consideration, a plane is only as lethal as the pilot who flies it.

Attila

 

[highsea]

That being said, is it possible that it was a future selling point for interested nations like the Saudi's who are now bringing on Typhoons for their Tornadoes?

Attila

No. First of all, no AF is going to give any credence to such a report anyway. Think about it, here we have a couple Strike Eagles on a ferry flight, which means that they are operating in Class A airspace on an IFR flight plan. And a couple Typhoons on a training flight. Okay, so I can see the pilots painting each other for kicks, but that's as far as they can go. No ACM type stuff, these are professional pilots, and they know what would happen to them if they got frisky.

It was more of a sell job to the British public than anything else.

I'm not critical of the Typhoon, it's a fantastic AC. It's just the news report that was a bunch of BS.