PAK-FA / T-50: Russian 5th Generation Fighter

[ajay_ijn]

Re: Russian 5th Generation Fighter !

I think money is the only problem in the PAK-FA Project.
If russians get enough money somewhere about 20 Billion Dollars,in the next minute they will build the protype.
But russians are struggling to even allocate 2 billion dollars.

That is why they ask financial help from India,But India cannot fund for the whole project.
Now its time Traditional Cold war Soviet Allies to help Russian Aviation Industry or they will be doomed.

 

[Aussie Digger]

Re: Russian 5th Generation Fighter !

That Russian website also made ridiculous claims about the Iraq war in 2003, in relation to how well Russian military equipment was performing in Iraqi hands against the US/UK forces. It was publishing daily "accounts" based on "sources" inside Iraq, alleged US military comms intercepts etc.

This website ran these stories and outlined that the claimed US advances were simply US propaganda. They ran of course, up until live footage of M1A2 Abrams was shown of them rolling through the streets of Baghdad, conclusively proving that this websites claims were utter rubbish... At that point the website immediately stopped running these stories...

 

[ashblackhawk]

Re: Russian 5th Generation Fighter !

I think anybody undermining the russian weapons should very well look into their country's achievement in field of aerodynamics first. I think PAK-FA if goes ahead without financial troubles will produce the aircraft which could challenge american superiority in air.

I think this will help create military balance in world.
Blackhawk :coffee

 

[nz enthusiast]

Re: Russian 5th Generation Fighter !

Most of you don't seem to realise the Russian ability to save money too. If they see something that is only going to make the slightest inhancment they don't do till later when they have done more important things. I believe that it was US putting in so many litle worthless things that put the price up.
Also Russia already has most of technology they need-from the Mig 1.42 and the S-37. All they really need to do now is put it together and make some slight modifications and enhancements.

 

[adsH]

Re: Russian 5th Generation Fighter !

I believe that it was US putting in so many litle worthless things that put the price up.

What exactly are you trying to imply here. The Raptor And BAE Typhoons are the Top Fighters and i doubt anything in them Was designed to be redundant.

Also Russia already has most of technology they need-from the Mig 1.42 and the S-37. All they really need to do now is put it together and make some slight modifications and enhancements.

Yeah Sure !! "Slight Modifications" would Suffice, They're Only Building a Raptor Competitor !!

 

[ashblackhawk]

Re: Russian 5th Generation Fighter !

I think its too early to say that The Raptors and Eurofighters are top fighters :coffee unless until both the fighters battles with some country with potent airforce, we cannot judge the fighters on basis of iraq, balkan, palestinian and afghanistan war !!
I think United States knows very little of what chinease have in place for them. Ability of chinease to mass produce the things makes them even bigger threat for opponents. And i believe that US either undermines or overweights its estimates for opponents. Undoubtedly they have best things in place in every arms, but it still cant make u winner if the enemy is real smart.
Blackhawk :coffee

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: Russian 5th Generation Fighter !

I think anybody undermining the russian weapons should very well look into their country's achievement in field of aerodynamics first. I think PAK-FA if goes ahead without financial troubles will produce the aircraft which could challenge american superiority in air.

I think this will help create military balance in world.
Blackhawk :coffee

and what makes you think that this is remotely possible?

1) Last year the Canadians, Germans, Americans, Swedes and Japanese bankrolled and undertook the destruction of 20 russian nuclear subs - the russians can't even fund their own breakups.

2) This year Japan and France will be funding the destruction of another 6 nuclear subs

3) The Russians ran their first major fleet exercise in 12 years. All major capital vessels came home at half speed due to engine and propulsion problems. The carrier pilots performed their first "at sea" launches for 10 years and promptly smacked 2 aircraft into the deck on landing - another words no money = no training = dead aircraft

4) This year the Russians have already delayed their shipbuilding exercises. They will complete one sub this year - (which is 4 years over schedule) and they will defer the 2nd sub for a further 24 months. They are replacing attrited units at the equiv of -25%. Another words their fleet is smaller than perceived capability and is obviously not battle ready (going off the prev exercise results

5) They're replacing the AK74 - but only to specialist units - as they can't afford to provide it to general soldiers. - ie money

6) How long has PAK-FA been spoken about in excited terms - hint years. We still get dreamers talking about flying the Berkut S37 when even Sukhois own test pilot said that it was not survivable in modern combat. FSW's chances died when off bore sight missiles were developed

7) Russia has taken the traditional stance of going defensive. ie when they have no money and can't afford needed programmes, they resort to ballistic missiles - easier to improve, and more visible in a wild card sense - guess where all the noise and demonstrations are going? you guessed it. Topol M.

Show many any real evidence to the contrary outside of pet wishful thinking and I'll begin the slow journey of being convinced - otherwise, I'm sorry to say that all the indicative, real and available evidence shows that they're 5-10 years from doing anything of note.

Again we get back to the reality of manned platforms surviving in a rapidly evolving environment where off bore sight and multiple seeker missiles make survival far harder. a missile is 1/50th the cost of the plane. you can send up a UCAV to emulate the emissions footprint of any platform, and you can get it to carry - why would you even consider to keep on pumping money into a solution that only be used in poorer countries who don't have the development capability to make the next quantum leap?

Investing in a counter to the F-22 is just an exercise in "keeping up with the Joneses" - it's not an exercise thats been scoped out with proper consideration IMV.

I can't actually see that the Russians are that stupid either.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: Russian 5th Generation Fighter !

I think United States knows very little of what chinease have in place for them. Ability of chinease to mass produce the things makes them even bigger threat for opponents.

mass produce what to be a threat? kitchen chairs? umbrellas, trousers? So you think that a country that had to get the Israelis to help with aircraft, radr and UAV design is able to technologically challenge a country that is about to intercept a comet with a drilling satellite in space, or is able to identify planets outside of the solar system, or has built more nuclear vessels than all other countries combined?

show me the technological examples of why china is ready to take on even a middle order power.

warfare is about persistence, projection, production, precision - at a naval level china is a "greenwater" country who has no capability to wage theatre war beyond the littorals.

try to be realistic.

And i believe that US either undermines or overweights its estimates for opponents. Undoubtedly they have best things in place in every arms, but it still cant make u winner if the enemy is real smart.
Blackhawk :coffee

au contraire - the US approach is similar to the UK - never underestimate and make sure that you decaptitate and overwhelm before committing ground forces. China has only ever fought footslogger wars - she's never fought any country since Vietnam (which was embarassing).

Look at her naval ORBAT, look at the capability of her vessel classes. Look at the numbers of available vessels. She has no subs that can launch ICBM's and she's using French Sonar and ASW systems in her Songs as she still hasn't been able to develop her own.

If you don't have the best things, you still need to have capability in the things that are left. China is a continental power - to talk of capability against any power that has demonstrated intercontinental theatre war repeatedly is more of an issue of wishful thinking than reality.

 

[ashblackhawk]

Re: Russian 5th Generation Fighter !

Hi,

Your replies were enlightening. I will not disagree with you. But i guess noone knows future !! keep fingers crossed because i dont see any major war before 2020, when the equations might be quiet different.
regards,
blackhawk:coffee

 

[ajay_ijn]

Re: Russian 5th Generation Fighter !

and what makes you think that this is remotely possible?

May be joint development close allies and other third world countries.
Like India,China etc.
Many others need to fund for project or it will meet the same fate as the
Mig-1.42.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: Russian 5th Generation Fighter !

A big jump form SU-37 to SU-47 where are the others?????

The Russians naming and numbering conventions weren't concurrent after the Su-24. ie there are no inbetween aircraft like the Su-26, Su-29, Su-36 etc....

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: Russian 5th Generation Fighter !

May be joint development close allies and other third world countries.
Like India,China etc.
Many others need to fund for project or it will meet the same fate as the
Mig-1.42.

It's not just an issue of money - which by itself is enormous. I cannot see India investing heavily into what is essentially a greenfields 5th generation aircraft when there are other priorities which are challenging the exchequer.

think of the resources, think of the current block obsolescence issues for India - and tell me with confidence that the Indian navy and Army will allow critical funds to be shifted into a technology which will not contribute greatly to the war fighting doctrine - what other military systems are in place to support it?

IMV= none

Chinas focus is maritime - she's looked at history and seen that persistence of maintaining territory if done by Sea - she is a trading power, and airpower does not fulfill the evolution of stabilising her areas of interest. Why do you think she's set up in Gwalor, Myanmar, Cambodia and is attempting to get into Indonesia? It's to protect sea routes. Airpower as she has it does not translate into force projection or persistence to protect her routes.

She will also develop critical technologies on her own - she is already moving away from russian technology and trying to get european. her subs warfighting systems are classical examples.

in the last 200 years, the great land powers have also been maritime powers. India knows that, China knows that. Unless they are intending to wage continental war, then ships will be the priority.

 

[KGB]

Re: Russian 5th Generation Fighter !

Russia's most pressing military problem at this time is in chechnya, not the threat of invasion from the US or another major power. I guess they feel that their ICBM force gives them enough protection from the US and other major powers.

 

[DarthAmerica]

Re: Russian 5th Generation Fighter !

Thats generally true BUT, and its a big big BUT, they are horrified at the rate of "western encroachment" on territory they consider to be in their sphere of influence. While they arent able to directly confront us on the battlefield outside of extreme emergency(a.k.a. National Survival) they are able to wage war by proxy. Those proxies will need a somewhat credible means of defending against western airforces. Because the most modern western designs are generally unavailable that IMV creates the market conditions for a "non-US" 5th or 6th generation platform. Doesnt have to be manned.

The problem is funding which has its roots in a more systemic and deeper issue. So outside of the Chinese, Iranians or indirectly a European nation funding PAK-FA. Its DOA by the time the Russians get it off the ground or even out of the CDR process.

 

[Pursuit Curve]

Re: Russian 5th Generation Fighter !

I read of this 5th Generation Fighter that Russia is making. It is called the Su-47. They say it is to compete with the American F-35 JSF ???
I heard India signed a deal to co-operate in this project. You guys heard any more on this ?

Here's the link :-

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/fighter/

Give me your comments.

The SU47 is not a competitor for the F35, and I say this because the SU47, as far as I know, cannot perform Vertical take off or landing, also as it states in the website you posted, it is not going to be produced as it is too expensive. Also forward swept wing designs are not appropriate for Supersonic flight, as proven by NASA in the Seventies ( Just added that to show the disparity in data and test results beyween the West and East, but also to show the disparity in technology!)

This technology demonstrator, not fighter, can soak up as much money as the Russians and the Indians can throw at it, and it will never reach the capapbilty or usefullness as the F22, the F35, Eurofighter, Rafale.

Maybe only as a subsonic aircraft, but what use would that have in the next 10 years trying to catch aircraft that can supercruise, or aircraft that have at this time 20 years of stealth experience and 30 plus years of true air combat experience?

This is yet another great airshow aircraft, but where is the beef?

 

[PLA2025]

Re: Russian 5th Generation Fighter !

right said! The Su-47 Berkut is a tech-demo plane not intended to enter service. It is more likely that they deploy some Su-37 Terminators to their elite squadrons while developing the Pak-Fa for the future.

 

[Pursuit Curve]

Re: Russian 5th Generation Fighter !

right said! The Su-47 Berkut is a tech-demo plane not intended to enter service. It is more likely that they deploy some Su-37 Terminators to their elite squadrons while developing the Pak-Fa for the future.

How long a time frame before this fighter finally gets into service?

HISTORY:
First Flight 2 April 1996
Service Entry
none to date

CREW: 1 pilot

ESTIMATED COST:
unknown

AIRFOIL SECTIONS:
Wing Root unknown
Wing Tip
unknown

DIMENSIONS:
Length 72.83 ft (22.22 m)
Wingspan 48.17 ft (14.70 m)
Height 21.08 ft (6.43 m)
Wing Area 666 ft2 (62.0 m2)
Canard Area
unknown

WEIGHTS:
Empty 40,785 lb (18,500 kg)
Typical Load 56,590 lb (25,670 kg)
Max Takeoff 74,955 lb (34,000 kg)
Fuel Capacity 29,540 lb (13,400 kg)
Max Payload
17,640 lb (8,000 kg)

PROPULSION:
Powerplant two Saturn/ Lyul'ka AL-31FU afterburning turbofans
Thrust unknown

PERFORMANCE:
Max Level Speed at altitude: 1,490 mph (2,400 km/h) at 32,780 ft (10,000 m), Mach 2.3
at sea level: unknown
cruise speed: 870 mph (1,400 km/h) at 32,780 ft (10,000 m)
Initial Climb Rate 45,235 ft (13,800 m) / min
Service Ceiling 59,055 ft (18,000 m)
Range typical: 1,730 nm (3,200 km)
ferry: 3,505 nm (6,500 km)
g-Limits +9

ARMAMENT:
Gun one 30-mm GSh-301 cannon (149 rds)
Stations twelve external hardpoints and two wingtip rails
Air-to-Air Missile R-27/AA-10 Alamo, R-73/AA-11 Archer, R-77/AA-12
Air-to-Surface Missile unknown
Bomb unknown
Other rocket pods, ECM pods

KNOWN VARIANTS:
Su-37 Prototypes have been built, but the aircraft has not entered production
(?) Two-seat model has been reported but designation unknown

KNOWN COMBAT RECORD:
not in service

KNOWN OPERATORS:
not in service

Again another great technology demonstrator, but will it be obsolete when the technology actually is affordable? Or is my source of information wrong and it is in service already?

 

[Pursuit Curve]

Re: Russian 5th Generation Fighter !

It's not just an issue of money - which by itself is enormous. I cannot see India investing heavily into what is essentially a greenfields 5th generation aircraft when there are other priorities which are challenging the exchequer.

think of the resources, think of the current block obsolescence issues for India - and tell me with confidence that the Indian navy and Army will allow critical funds to be shifted into a technology which will not contribute greatly to the war fighting doctrine - what other military systems are in place to support it?

IMV= none

Chinas focus is maritime - she's looked at history and seen that persistence of maintaining territory if done by Sea - she is a trading power, and airpower does not fulfill the evolution of stabilising her areas of interest. Why do you think she's set up in Gwalor, Myanmar, Cambodia and is attempting to get into Indonesia? It's to protect sea routes. Airpower as she has it does not translate into force projection or persistence to protect her routes.

She will also develop critical technologies on her own - she is already moving away from russian technology and trying to get european. her subs warfighting systems are classical examples.

in the last 200 years, the great land powers have also been maritime powers. India knows that, China knows that. Unless they are intending to wage continental war, then ships will be the priority.

Do you predict that the Chinese Naval ( Air) Strike capability be satisfied
by long range single seat aircraft (Sukhoi's)? Or are they still going to rely on the obsolete ( see Ancient ) Multi engine types still in service?

I agree with your analysis of India's fiscal troubles, all the talk regarding new technologies etc, it see,s they have hit the wall with the LCA, as ambitious as it was it was perhaps too ambitious.

I realise that this is the Airpower section, but which western naval tech are they looking at? West German? French?

 

[Lelik Rus]

forget about all previous examples like Su 47 and others. The real 5-g craft, code project I-21, should take off late in 2006. That means this project
doesn't have any common with su35, 37, 47.
Probably the man from Aust thinks that any country could be compared to USa in $ spending? Or he can state that only russian sea fleet has some trobles?
We are still recovering from the mid-80 and ugly 90 to improve our weapons, crafts and fleet. Not to make attacks on some country but to stay on a high level in defence. "Bulava" and "Topol-M", C-400 and some other well-known system are much cheaper and more effective than american analogues.
I'm sure that our 5-g craft will be at least twice less expensive than raptor and so can be more competitive on market.
As for practice the USA-India trainings prove the advantage of russian crafts. I've read the article where F-22 has been named more powerful in some aspects than Su-35, mostly in supersonic cruise but again, Su-35 isn't 5-g craft and the comparison isn't quite correct. But 130$ for plane... not sure this craft has a chance to be the main weapon in US Air forces. But USA-India trainings indicate the nesessarity to replace the main US fighter F-15. It doesn't seem F22 could be good choice in this case

 

[tphuang]

Lelik, Gary knows what he is talking about. Su-35 can't be compared to F-22. The Russian 5th generation craft will most likely be compared to F-35 when it comes out. The Indo-US exercise doesn't indicate su-30 is better than F-15C, since the Americans were seriously handicapped.