PAK-FA / T-50: Russian 5th Generation Fighter

[Lelik Rus]

How exactly they were handicapped?
again, su-35 is a kind of the answer to JSF
new project, I-21, should be at least as good as f-22 . and much cheaper.
tne main advantage of F-22 is that it is ready right now.
please don't get me wrong. I wouldn't like to be like a someone who says "we have the best weapon". But seems like you don't have the whole story about our 5-g craft. Anyway I don't think that technical characteristics are main issue in the real battle.
so I wish both Americans and Russians wil take what they exactly want from their own idea of 5-g craft.

 

[tphuang]

How exactly they were handicapped?
again, su-35 is a kind of the answer to JSF
new project, I-21, should be at least as good as f-22 . and much cheaper.
tne main advantage of F-22 is that it is ready right now.
please don't get me wrong. I wouldn't like to be like a someone who says "we have the best weapon". But seems like you don't have the whole story about our 5-g craft. Anyway I don't think that technical characteristics are main issue in the real battle.
so I wish both Americans and Russians wil take what they exactly want from their own idea of 5-g craft.

i don't want to get into another argument on Cope India, so I will just say that you can find all you need by googling it up.

As for su-35 vs JSF, it cannot compare to JSF due to stealth and avionics. su-35's RCS is reduced from the original flankers like su-27/30, but it's still huge. JSF is a stealth aircraft. JSF uses APG-81, whereas su-35 most likely uses zhuk-msf or Irbis. The engine on JSF is far superior to the engine on su-35. The T/W ratio difference is too large.

 

[rabs]

new project, I-21 will be at least as good as the F-22

3



So the Russians can just skip over 5th gen planes and produce 6th gen ones?

 

[PLA2025]

The F-15C could be more compared to the SU-27 UBK. The Su-30MK should be compared to the F-15E Strike Eagle since both are modified multirole jets.
But about the F-22 Raptor's cost: If I'm not wrong the whole package of one F/A-22A Raptor including spareparts and weapon suite reaches the 250 mio.USD each jet! Russias PakFa might most likely cost between 60-80 mio.USD but maybe we should just wait for some official numbers from the Russians =)

 

[Whiskyjack]

Well I am sure that the Russian aerospace industry can build an airframe that would compete with the F-22, I just don't see the network centric infrastructure that US industry has, which is the real force multiplier.

 

[Wild Weasel]

It's all about the money.
In time, it stands to reason that there will likely be a Russian-produced rival to the Raptor, as well as one or more Western European offerings.

The point of building such a fighter, is primarily to compete in the same market for exportable front-line fighter planes. The economic issue is far more serious to Moscow than building a fighter that can actually defend Russia's airspace from the F/A-22. The Kremlin probably isn't very concerned about defending Russia from the US Air Force- they are worried about China, India, and several dozen other nations possibly choosing to buy a better, ( and much more expensive ) plane from the US, or the EU. They are a fledgling capitalist democracy, and they realize that they must export something (anything) that is on a par with the Raptor in order to maintian credability in the global arms market. It's quite a tough predicament for them to be in, actually, and the market is going to become even more competitive as time goes on. China is likely going to develop it's own 5th gen. fighter at some point in the near future, further drying up any potential sales to Russia's current number-one customer.

But it is far too early for Russia to be banking on future arms deals, as the US has (publically) led in this field for decades. There are still details about the Raptor's abilties that are not in the public domain. And it's likely that the inevitable future upgrades to the Raptor will ensure that it remains as the world's top rated air-superiority fighter. As long as the Raptor is on top, there will only be two parties to be in: Those nations that have the Raptor, and those that wish they had the Raptor. Those that can't afford the F/A-22, will seek to buy anything that is believed to be almost as good, from the lowest possible bidder. Needless to say, the Russian MFI ( MiG 1.42, etc etc ) was not the Raptor-killer that they hoped it would be. Maybe this new Russian attempt might actually produce something that performs as advertised.

Everyone else is simply playing catch up as best they can, and probably when they finally get the fifth gen. fighter they so badly desire, the US will have already moved on to it's sixth generation platforms, anyway. ( If they havent already begun to do so. Their R&D seems to be about 20-30 years ahead of what is released to the rest of the world. We must assume that much is always going on behind the scenes in their super-secret "black budget" programs. )
Or, they could even change the rules of the game altogether as they did by developing and producing front-line "stealth" platforms to begin with.
The only way to get ahead of them, will be to figure out what technologies will likely replace 5th gen. and pour enough money into production in order to dominate the market before the Americans do.

Personally, I believe that this 5th generation is likely to be the end of manned fighter airacraft, and the future is likely to be dominated by the UCAV.
If this is the case, the train has already been hijacked by the US again- they are already well into advanced R&D on various UAV/UCAV programs, and seem to be preparing for full-rate production, well ahead of everyone else. once again, just how far ahead they are is anyone's guess, but it will likely be decades before we are discussing Russia's answer to America's first generation UCAV.
So, what will be the most likely counter to swarms of stealth UCAVs? Probably air-borne laser platforms, I guess.

And there too, the Americans are already far out in front.

 

[chinawhite]

Here is some points about the russian fifth generation project

1.) The PAK-FA project is for a F-22 class plane with a F-35 price

2.)The Mig-1.42 project had perfomance as a priority and stealth as secondary.

3.) The Mig-1.42 is the project name while the actual aircraft was the Mig-1.44

4.) The russian army does not want a single engined aircraft

Lastly. The russians dont have funds for such a project :sleepy3

 

[tphuang]

The F-15C could be more compared to the SU-27 UBK. The Su-30MK should be compared to the F-15E Strike Eagle since both are modified multirole jets.
But about the F-22 Raptor's cost: If I'm not wrong the whole package of one F/A-22A Raptor including spareparts and weapon suite reaches the 250 mio.USD each jet! Russias PakFa might most likely cost between 60-80 mio.USD but maybe we should just wait for some official numbers from the Russians =)

su-27ubk is a two seater, it's not the air superiority version. F-15C is the main air superiority fighter for USAF. ubk should be compared to earlier F-15 trainer versions. su-30mk certainly is not equipped with the kind of weapon package and avionics that F-15E is equipped with.

agreed, the 5th generation fighter for the Russians will be more tailored for exports.

 

[Sea Dog]

Lastly. The russians dont have funds for such a project :sleepy3

BINGO!!! And without a whole lot of $$$, or a country willing to fund the R&D, or a joint venture with a country with a lot of spare $$$, Russia may just slowly be leaving the fighter production business.
:jump2

 

[chinawhite]

Sea dog. Maybe you would like to refer to my thread about it.

Future of russia defense industry?

 

[Sea Dog]

Sea dog. Maybe you would like to refer to my thread about it.

Future of russia defense industry?

No. But I would like to refer you that taking into account the non-existent RAFALE sales and its effect on Dassault's survivability, and the soon-to-collapse market for Russian fighters, there may just be a possibility of a joint Rus/Fr fighter program. :dance

 

[LancerMc]

I think everyone is missing the point in comparing the future 5th generation Russian fighters to the F-22. It is not is weapons systems, speed, range, and agility that give it the edge in combat. If you read heavily enough about the F-22, it is the aircraft's communication and detection technology that give its edge. Essentially the F-22 is a AWACS in a fighter aircraft. The new "Net Centric" warfare will allow F-22's to hide and communicate with everything in the battle space like no other aircraft can. The extent in which these systems works is one of the aircraft's mostly guarded secrets. Though in interviews pilots are wowed by the abilities of F-22 in this area.

Yes, I believe the Russians are very capable of producing a fighter that can have the same agility, fire power, and range, but they do not have the infrastructure to include the communication and detection technology the F-22 has. By the time Russia ever produces a fighter that is capable as today's F-22, the U.S. will have more advance versions of it, plus probably a new generation fighter.

 

[Sea Dog]

Yes, I believe the Russians are very capable of producing a fighter that can have the same agility, fire power, and range, but they do not have the infrastructure to include the communication and detection technology the F-22 has. By the time Russia ever produces a fighter that is capable as today's F-22, the U.S. will have more advance versions of it, plus probably a new generation fighter.

Interestingly it took the Euros roughly 30 years from the F-15's entry into service (1974) for them to deploy a fighter aircraft--the Rafale and EF2000--whose paramaters allowed it to take on the Eagle. And just when they finally put those two models into service, the US begins to operate the F-22 which overnight rendered both of those types totally obsolete. Ditto for the Sukhoi and MIG.

My use of the term "obsolete" is not meant to disparage the modern European fighters, but attempting to operate them in anger against the F-22 is tantamount to suicide.:jump

 

[Wild Weasel]

Interestingly it took the Euros roughly 30 years from the F-15's entry into service (1974) for them to deploy a fighter aircraft--the Rafale and EF2000--whose paramaters allowed it to take on the Eagle. And just when they finally put those two models into service, the US begins to operate the F-22 which overnight rendered both of those types totally obsolete. Ditto for the Sukhoi and MIG.

My use of the term "obsolete" is not meant to disparage the modern European fighters, but attempting to operate them in anger against the F-22 is tantamount to suicide.:jump

It should be noted that Saab's Gripen is also a quite effective, if somewhat over-priced, competitor from the EU.
Of course, the Tornado was in service well before these fourth generation fighters, but it certainly wasn't as effective as the Eagle in the air superiority role, nor as flexible as the F-16 as an air-to-ground fighter-bomber.
It remains to be seen how capable these new European designs are, as compared to the F/A-22, and F-35.

 

[tphuang]

It should be noted that Saab's Gripen is also a quite effective, if somewhat over-priced, competitor from the EU.
Of course, the Tornado was in service well before these fourth generation fighters, but it certainly wasn't as effective as the Eagle in the air superiority role, nor as flexible as the F-16 as an air-to-ground fighter-bomber.
It remains to be seen how capable these new European designs are, as compared to the F/A-22, and F-35.

Nah, Gripen can't really be compared to the other two. Rafale and Typhoon are much more advanced than the original F-15s, so to imply that they are 30 years behind American designs is a little disrepectful.

You can read the opinion of the dude that flied both the typhoon and F-22. He really praised typhoon.

 

[chinawhite]

No. But I would like to refer you that taking into account the non-existent RAFALE sales and its effect on Dassault's survivability, and the soon-to-collapse market for Russian fighters, there may just be a possibility of a joint Rus/Fr fighter program. :dance

I meant to refer to my thread because i had the exact same opinoin as you.

But the french connection?. Already seeing that on some fighters they made

 

[Sea Dog]

Nah, Gripen can't really be compared to the other two. Rafale and Typhoon are much more advanced than the original F-15s, so to imply that they are 30 years behind American designs is a little disrepectful.

You can read the opinion of the dude that flied both the typhoon and F-22. He really praised typhoon.

But to imply that it took Europe 30 years to develop and begin deployment of something that can challenge the F-15, is a very accurate statement. For the past 30 years, nothing that the Western European forces flew could really challange an F-15. In 1974, when the F-15 began deployment to operational units, Western Europe's premier fighters were the F-4 (UK/GER) & Mirage F-1's (F), which were fine aircraft for their time but were just not in the same league as the F-15.

Now the RAFALE & EF2000, outstanding machines in their own, can handle an F-15. But unfortunately for the European fighters, the F-22 is also entering service at the same time they are, and the F-22clearly outclasses both of them (praise the EF200 all you want). It sort of looks like a replay of 1974 all over again.

Ask yourself the following question-without forgetting to praise the Typhoon: What would you rather ride into combat? An F-22, a RAFALE, or an EF2000?

I think everyone in this thread would come up with the same answer.
:

 

[Scorpius]

the F-22A ofcourse.especially since the avionics reduce the workload of the pilot though I don't know what will it come to when a dogfight occurs or when the Raptor's in subsonic.
what I heard was that Raptor ain't uh that good when in subsonic.
please correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Sea Dog]

the F-22A ofcourse.especially since the avionics reduce the workload of the pilot though I don't know what will it come to when a dogfight occurs or when the Raptor's in subsonic.
what I heard was that Raptor ain't uh that good when in subsonic.
please correct me if I am wrong.

Why get caught in a dogfight when you can kill the guy at long range?

With the F-22's ability to supercruise and outaccelerate the competition, it would take a really dumb pilot to want to slow the a/c, close in on the enemy (where he can easily get you), and start rumbling for the sake of one's ego.

And a dumb pilot usually ends up as a big hole in the ground.

 

[aaaditya]

well the russian ambassador to india has stated that india and russia are developing the 5 th gen fighter.

here is the link:

http://www.hindu.com/2006/02/16/stories/2006021604411300.htm

Russia, India designing interceptor fighter

Prabhakkar Sharma
Call for stronger ties in hi-tech and information technology



[SIZE=-2][/SIZE]

Vyacheslav Trubnikov — Photo: C.V. Subrahmanyam

VISAKHAPATNAM: Russia and India were designing a unique interceptor fighter of the fifth generation, Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary of the Russian Federation, Vyacheslav I. Trubnikov, said in an exclusive interview to The Hindu on Tuesday.
The Russian ambassador was here on an invitation from the Navy to witness the President's Fleet Review (PFR) from February 11 to 13. Describing President A.P.J. Kalam as the "Father" of the Brahmos missile, he said India and Russia had now reached an agreement for designing, producing and also marketing the product. "It is a brilliant example of international cooperation. Starting from design, it is something new. It goes beyond the relationship of a buyer and seller. It is a mutual effort everywhere," he said.
In the sphere of space too, Russia had assisted India in its efforts to become a "power to reckon with," Mr. Trubnikov noted. He said that during his visit to Bangalore sometime ago he saw two satellites being assembled which were later launched into space. "It was a completely indigenous project. But I am proud of Russia's involvement in the initial stages of India's emergence in space research."
While the Russian Ambassador was satisfied with military cooperation, he called for stronger ties in the spheres of hi-tech, information technology, biotechnology and nano technology. He said India was now a different country compared to about 15 years ago. Also, today's Russia is not the USSR. Both countries had to work together, particularly in trade and commerce where India was lagging behind, he said. The volume of trade with India was a meagre $2 billion while it was as high as $18 billion between India and China.
Mr. Trubnikov, who left for Raipur and Bhilai to speak to local leaders about modernising the steel plants, said he would like to compare the progress of the Bhilai steel plant with that of the Visakhapatnam Steel Plant (VSP). Bhilai was older than VSP and Bokaro came up later. He would like to see continuing cooperation in metallurgy and heavy industry, which were vital to a country's economy. Speaking about the rupee debt, he said it was around $3 billion and to be cleared 2037. But if Russia could invest $1 billion of it immediately in the steel and heavy industry, the rest could be settled later.