NZDF - Now and the Future.

[Markus40]

On 26 August 2005, the government announced plans to study ways to reduce the size of the military. Military engineers would be transferred to the Regional Development Ministry, said Home Affair Minister Josefa Vosanibola, and the reduction of the Military forces would coincide with an increase in the numbers of the police force.

On 26 September 2005, Rabukawaqa revealed that the Military had decided to curtail certain operations in order to stay within its budget. The cuts would affect maritime patrols, search and rescue operations, training and exercises, School Cadet training, and the deployment of Military engineers to rural areas. These cuts would be made to ensure that activities accorded a higher priority, such as peacekeeping operations in the Sinai Peninsula and Iraq, officer cadet training with the New Zealand Defence Forces, and the prosecution of soldiers charged with mutiny, would not be affected, Rabukawaqa said.

The next day, Lesi Korovavala, Chief Executive Officer of the Ministry of Home Affairs, told the Fiji Village news service that the Military had undertaken the reductions on its own initiative, in consultation with the department, an explanation corroborated by Lieutenant Colonel Rabukawaqa.

Last I heard {in the Christchurch Press} that reduction was not going ahead, has that changed and do you have a link?

 

[Markus40]

Thank you, i knew my information was right on somewhere.

maybe this will help:

http://pidp.eastwestcenter.org/pireport/2006/June/06-08-02.htm

 

[Markus40]

Thank you, sometimes i keep thinking we are all nzers. Haha. Anyways, i think i have exhausted my energy debating the subject. I believe strongly we can do the mission, and you believe we cant, so i guess we will have to agree to disagree.

He meant "we" as Australia. AUSTRALIA didn't have the capability in 87. NZ certainly didn't and still doesn't.

Remember we had a little vessel known as HMAS Tobruk back then which IS (still) far more capable than your MRV will be, in terms of it's ability to lift numbers of troops, vehicles and LCM-8's etc.

The fact is that 250 troops are virtually nothing. You are talking about a single infantry company and a few supporting elements. You talk about 4x NH-90's being deployed. How many personnel do you think it's going to take to support said helo's?

By way of referrence, Australia has 2 Chinooks in Afghanistan and has 150 people supporting them...

A simple fact is that a single rifle Coy is not likely to defeat a 3500 strong military force. Particularly one recognised as being at least reasonably militarily capable.

NZ could do many things to exercise military power against Fiji, but launch a light infantry ground force is not one of them, with it's current troop numbers and planned deployable assets.

 

[Markus40]

Without a Air combat wing anything that can carry a Jdam or AGM would certainly come in handy, and its here the Orions could come in handy.

I still believe a JDAM equiped Orion could provide useful air support, as long as you have the troops on the deck to mark the targets accurately and data-uplink ability, it could loiter on station for a reasonable period of time and sit at 20,000ft well out of harms way (small arms fire) , in the recent Gulf actions apart from the A-10's most of the ordinance was dropped from medium level anyway.

 

[Markus40]

I mentioned in a previous posting that Niue could be used as a staging post, and i am pleased to see that you have added more information to the topic. With upgrading the facilities and a new port makes perfect sense. This certainly supports my argument for a NZ based operation if we had to to move into Fiji if a contigency broke out. We can use our supply network via the Navy and Airforce through Niue.

Good work in advising this.

In short Niue is a very attractive candidate for a rudimentary bare base to support humanitarian/military operations in the South Pacific region of most interest to New Zealand.

Location – Niue is very centrally located. ~600km to the north is Samoa, ~1000km to the east is the cook islands, 600 km south is Tonga and ~1200km west is Fiji. Rarotonga being some further 1000km to the east is much less centrally located

Facilities – The airport was recently extended as part of a NZ aid project and is capable of 737/767 sized operations. The major short fall is that there is no port, however a Pacific Forum study noted that an upgraded port facility with land-based docking and cargo loading/unloading could be constructed for $5M.

Economics/Politics – Suffice to say with less than 2000 people in Niue (20,000 in NZ) Niue is mostly a subsistence economy. The government is largely funded via NZ aid grants. Niue is in “free association” with NZ which means they are nominally independent and ask NZ to cover foreign affairs and defence on their behalf. Creating a bare base would have to be approved by the Niue legislature but given the economic benefits this is probably of little concern.

Bare base facilities– I would envisage a facility largely based around the airport with the construction of additional hard stands, large fuel bunker and storage facilities for propositioned containerized stores. Mostly traditional post hurricane relief type items prepackaged for C-130 sized transport. This would be supported from an upgraded port. Total capex maybe $10M with ~$1M in annual operating costs depending on number of resupply trips necessary (These numbers are real guesses btw, but I think in the ball park.

Bare base operations – The bare base primary role would be to enable quick response to regional contingencies. In some situations it would act as a land based tanker, increasing RNZAF aircraft range/payload capability, in others it would enable fast support to regional crisis. In the, albeit far fetched, notion of NZ being involved in armed conflict in the region the bare base also offers the advantage of the option of being able to build up forces in region and then deploy them straight to an area of interest and support them along shorter supply lanes.

All in all probably quite a cost effective use of limited NZDF funds and a strong sign of commitment to, for want of a better term, “policing” the South Pacific region.

(BTW first post, apols if I inadvertently break protocol)

 

[Whiskyjack]

I mentioned in a previous posting that Niue could be used as a staging post, and i am pleased to see that you have added more information to the topic. With upgrading the facilities and a new port makes perfect sense. This certainly supports my argument for a NZ based operation if we had to to move into Fiji if a contigency broke out. We can use our supply network via the Navy and Airforce through Niue.

Good work in advising this.

Just remember Markus, that while I agree with Niue as a good 'bare base' any military action that NZ undertakes, as we have been discussing re Fiji, will hang off 2400km from Auckland to Niue, an 1200km from Niue to Fiji. Not something NZ could accomplish alone at the present time. We simply fail in regards to force we could employ and logistics to support it.

Remember that NZ could not support its forces in the Pacific in the Second World War with out considerable support from the US.

 

[Stuart Mackey]

You might find my opinions hard to swallow but im sure youll get over it. Well, maybe.

Honestly you can have any opinion you want, so long as you can back it up with verifiable fact, and its the lack of fact that I find hard to swallow.

 

[Stuart Mackey]

If we were to send 4 NH90s on the MRV then the remaining 4 NH90s is not enough to cover our other operational responsibilities. IE, Humanitarian aid if needed, Antarctic duties, Search and Rescue and training. Not to mention if we had an accident on one then we are desperatly short.

Thats the concern I have, allthough I dont think they will go to Antartica except on the MRV. We should have 12, imo, to cover for contingencies and to support the governments idea of a deployed battalion group in medium level conflict. And if you look out your window now, you will see a flying pig.

 

[Markus40]

I dont think so Whisky Jack. Niue can be a staging post for NZ forces if need be by it self. As i have continually repeated if we deploy the MRV and 2-3 Supply ships IE Pacifica Ro/Ro vessels to bring in more communications and troops and equipment, that this alone can do the job. It has a air field that we can bring in C130s and 757s and P3s.

Of course NZ couldnt support itself in the Pacfic war during WW11 because the field of operations was widespread. IE We couldnt spread our forces over a wide area. Fiji isnt like that and is concentrated in one area. Im sure you are aware of that. NZ does have what it takes, and when we talk about a "risky" operation by one or two members of this post, we have to remember that any operation large or small, afar or close within close range has its risks. No one needs to be reminded of that. It just needs to be left up to the smart military planners to do the job.

Just remember Markus, that while I agree with Niue as a good 'bare base' any military action that NZ undertakes, as we have been discussing re Fiji, will hang off 2400km from Auckland to Niue, an 1200km from Niue to Fiji. Not something NZ could accomplish alone at the present time. We simply fail in regards to force we could employ and logistics to support it.

Remember that NZ could not support its forces in the Pacific in the Second World War with out considerable support from the US.

 

[Markus40]

You have the facts and what can be implemented, but what im seeing is bloodymindedness against the idea due to your own opinions. You didnt have the correct number of LAVs that can be deployed on a MRV to begin with and then i had to send you information about the Fiji military coup, which you seemed to know nothing about, so when i start seeing you applying logic to your argument then i will start taking you seriously and find integrity and foundation for your own view point.

Honestly you can have any opinion you want, so long as you can back it up with verifiable fact, and its the lack of fact that I find hard to swallow.

 

[Markus40]

Im sure the NZ Airforce had a Huey based down in Antarctica for full time duties at one stage but if not thats okay. It still means we are short on numbers of NH90s, and like you for the first time in the posting i agree on 12.

However, it can be possible given a few years time that government decides to add a few more as they can see that they need supplementing due to the demand in service requirements.

Thats the concern I have, allthough I dont think they will go to Antartica except on the MRV. We should have 12, imo, to cover for contingencies and to support the governments idea of a deployed battalion group in medium level conflict. And if you look out your window now, you will see a flying pig.

 

[Stuart Mackey]

You have the facts and what can be implemented, but what im seeing is bloodymindedness against the idea due to your own opinions.

Excuse me? Its your concept that I am critisizing, the onus is on you to support it, not me.

You didnt have the correct number of LAVs that can be deployed on a MRV to begin with

Lier. I posted the maximum amount direct from the RNZN website, and previously posted that it would carry a handfull, not a specific amount.

and then i had to send you information about the Fiji military coup, which you seemed to know nothing about,

Which was nothing more than a transparent attempt a a stawman argument that had nothing to do with the topic at hand!.

so when i start seeing you applying logic to your argument then i will start taking you seriously and find integrity and foundation for your own view point.

You talk of Intregity? not only have you lied about my own statements in this thread, you expect others to do your work for you, and try to use dishonest debating methods to distract from your arguements weaknesses. And you have the gall to talk of integrity? .

 

[gf0012-aust]

If this post deteriorates further it will get locked for a while.

The "yes it can", "no it can't" type of engagement needs to revert back to supportable/unsupportable responses.

and before it goes any further, maybe someone needs to construct the theoretical cassus belli for a Kiwi contingent to get shifted in the first place. Time frames, available forces day 1, day 3 day 5 etc.... Ports of entry, contingency access issues etc...

The initial discussion didn't factor in "seize and hold" of a way point sans "bare base". That changes the complexion of response considerably.

Its probably a sep discussion post as this one is more or less derailed from the original topic.

 

[Markus40]

Admin.

Comment deleted as it was unhelpful in light of my prev post.


If you two have issues with each other then flail away at each other via PM. Don't do it in public.

 

[Markus40]

I think it is too. I just need to communicate with sensible and logical people who could take on the thread that it can be possible to use Niue as a stand off base for an operation on Fiji. We are talking hypothetically. Obviously theres someone who thinks the threat is imminent and getting bum rash, but i hope clear minds will prevail.

If this post deteriorates further it will get locked for a while.

The "yes it can", "no it can't" type of engagement needs to revert back to supportable/unsupportable responses.

and before it goes any further, maybe someone needs to construct the theoretical cassus belli for a Kiwi contingent to get shifted in the first place. Time frames, available forces day 1, day 3 day 5 etc.... Ports of entry, contingency access issues etc...

The initial discussion didn't factor in "seize and hold" of a way point sans "bare base". That changes the complexion of response considerably.

Its probably a sep discussion post as this one is more or less derailed from the original topic.

 

[Stuart Mackey]

All you need to do is start your basic training in the military and then i will believe you. Simple.

Ok, I will just assume you cannot answer what I have asked of you previously, nor defend yourself. Your concession is accepted.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Admin Edit:

Re-opened

Just remember to play nice!

 

[Mr Brown]

Great, now who thinks that government is stalling on NH-90 purchase due to unexpected cost blow out. The NH-90 is a mighty fine helicopter, especially for operating in a marine environment, what it was orignally designed for afterall. Possible that RNZAF may only get a few to start with, say 8, with more to come in future. NH-90 is afterall a much more advanced machine than Huey, so may need a little time to get used to operating it, after all there was I believe a gradual introduction of UH-1 into service, when tactical helos were new concept for NZ. I could see as many as 14 eventually entering service, maybe with a LUH that is more than a trainer, to provide for SAR, disaster relief at home, govt agency support etc.

 

[Mr Brown]

Why we invading Fiji anyway? So they rugby sevens, they can't play the full game to save themselves. Anyway they have a few offshore islands with decent airstrips, could be used to provide logistical support. Plus, not much of an air defence environment, Seasprite with Maverick would surely prove murder of any Fijian artillery, or fixed defences. Though if Fijians decided to fight a geurilla action, could cause NZ forces major problems. But, if we were to intervene there I would assume it would be alongside Aussies.

 

[Sea Toby]

I wanted to add while recently this thread involved Fiji, which has the strongest military, any of the other less capable island nations could have been singled out instead. If Fiji is too tough a nut to crack, surely Samoa or Tonga would be less so.