NZDF - Now and the Future.

[Markus40]

Absolutely. We are talking hypothetically so i wish we never have to have Fiji alone. Anything else is small fry.

I wanted to add while recently this thread involved Fiji, which has the strongest military, any of the other less capable island nations could have been singled out instead. If Fiji is too tough a nut to crack, surely Samoa or Tonga would be less so.

 

[Markus40]

Absolutely. I personally believe NZ has the capabilities and resources to do it, and if Australia want to help with some logistics then bring it on.

Why we invading Fiji anyway? So they rugby sevens, they can't play the full game to save themselves. Anyway they have a few offshore islands with decent airstrips, could be used to provide logistical support. Plus, not much of an air defence environment, Seasprite with Maverick would surely prove murder of any Fijian artillery, or fixed defences. Though if Fijians decided to fight a geurilla action, could cause NZ forces major problems. But, if we were to intervene there I would assume it would be alongside Aussies.

 

[Markus40]

Theres been some postings that 6 NH90s might be what the government might order to keep the costings within the $500 Million for the Helo replacement. However i am very sceptical based on Phil Goffs recent speech that 8 would be the most likely number despite a cost blowout of $200 million due to inflation and spare parts that go with the helo buy and exchange rate.
So im standing with the 8 that most likely will be ordered. Im also of the opinion as i posted recently in an other area of the NH90 purchase that the 10 year cost budget for the military will cover a couple more if needed in the long term, and i would assume that this would most likely happen, due to the stretched nature of our Helo deployments and service requirements on the current 8.

Great, now who thinks that government is stalling on NH-90 purchase due to unexpected cost blow out. The NH-90 is a mighty fine helicopter, especially for operating in a marine environment, what it was orignally designed for afterall. Possible that RNZAF may only get a few to start with, say 8, with more to come in future. NH-90 is afterall a much more advanced machine than Huey, so may need a little time to get used to operating it, after all there was I believe a gradual introduction of UH-1 into service, when tactical helos were new concept for NZ. I could see as many as 14 eventually entering service, maybe with a LUH that is more than a trainer, to provide for SAR, disaster relief at home, govt agency support etc.

 

[NZLAV]

Wait guys, aren't we forgetting that the RNZAF is purchasing 6 LUH that are as capable as a huey(if I'm right)?

 

[KH-12]

Wait guys, aren't we forgetting that the RNZAF is purchasing 6 LUH that are as capable as a huey(if I'm right)?

Hopefully they go with the EC145, which has a reasonable cabin size.

 

[Markus40]

Do you have information about the LUH and what type? I wasnt aware that 6 were being ordered and included in the $700 million package.

Wait guys, aren't we forgetting that the RNZAF is purchasing 6 LUH that are as capable as a huey(if I'm right)?

 

[KH-12]

Do you have information about the LUH and what type? I wasnt aware that 6 were being ordered and included in the $700 million package.

The reference to the 6 LUH is in this article :

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3735059a10,00.html

It will be either EC135/635 or EC145

 

[Mr Brown]

I would assume that prime role of NH-90 would be to operate from MRV, taking on the roles of the Huey that invlove overseas deployments, eg intervening in East Timor, tsunami relief. That would mean a LUH that would be expected to pick up domestic roles such as supply drops to snow bound farmers or supporting armed offenders operations, plus providing a training role.

 

[Sea Toby]

With an order for 8 NH90s and 6 EC135s, there will be plenty of helicopters left in New Zealand when the MRV takes 4 NH90s overseas. While the EC135 may not have the storage of a Huey, they have more than a Sioux. Unlike the Sioux, the EC135 can do more missions besides training. As others have indicated, another smaller order can be acquired in the future.

However, I am curious whether the EC135 can be airlifted in a Hercules. I know the NH90 can with some disassembly, I wonder whether the EC135 can be airlifted without disassembly?

 

[Whiskyjack]

With an order for 8 NH90s and 6 EC135s, there will be plenty of helicopters left in New Zealand when the MRV takes 4 NH90s overseas. While the EC135 may not have the storage of a Huey, they have more than a Sioux. Unlike the Sioux, the EC135 can do more missions besides training. As others have indicated, another smaller order can be acquired in the future.

However, I am curious whether the EC135 can be airlifted in a Hercules. I know the NH90 can with some disassembly, I wonder whether the EC135 can be airlifted without disassembly?

While I'm not an expert, the 135 is much smaller than the NH90, so should be capable of transportation in a Herc. I would imagine the mil version, the 635, would have to be transportable. The dimensions look about right for a C-13o, although I think some disassembly of the rotor head would be needed.

 

[Whiskyjack]

The reference to the 6 LUH is in this article :

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3735059a10,00.html

It will be either EC135/635 or EC145

One article made reference to the A109 as well.

 

[Whiskyjack]

4 NH90s with a minimum of 3 operationl, gives the NZDF the ability to lift 1 reinforced infantry platoon of around 48-54 troops. Compared to ET where 6 UH1s were deployed and the max lift from 5 UH1s was around 30 troops. So a good improvement.

 

[KH-12]

One article made reference to the A109 as well.

Do you think we could end up with something like the MH-68 ?

http://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/agusta/index.html#agusta4

 

[Whiskyjack]

Do you think we could end up with something like the MH-68 ?

http://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/agusta/index.html#agusta4

It is possible, Augusta has shares in NHI as well. More likely to be the civil over the military version. Although from memory the mil version can carry guided and unguided missiles. On that basis I would say the civil

It would be nice to see 2 LUHs deployed with the NH90 to give a medivac, liaison capability that does not detract from the NH90s.

 

[KH-12]

It is possible, Augusta has shares in NHI as well. More likely to be the civil over the military version. Although from memory the mil version can carry guided and unguided missiles. On that basis I would say the civil

It would be nice to see 2 LUHs deployed with the NH90 to give a medivac, liaison capability that does not detract from the NH90s.

Having a wheeled aircraft would make it abit easier for deck handling on the MRV, in which case the EC155 would be very nice , so maybe a 3 NH90 2 LUH deployment for the MRV as a likely mix ?

 

[Whiskyjack]

Having a wheeled aircraft would make it abit easier for deck handling on the MRV, in which case the EC155 would be very nice , so maybe a 3 NH90 2 LUH deployment for the MRV as a likely mix ?

The only issue I would raise is the ability to lift that reinforced platoon in one hit. Also the LUH buy would have to be 8 not 6.

But obviously the mission would dictate the mix. 3 + 2 would be ideal to a disaster relief mission.

 

[KH-12]

The only issue I would raise is the ability to lift that reinforced platoon in one hit. Also the LUH buy would have to be 8 not 6.

But obviously the mission would dictate the mix. 3 + 2 would be ideal to a disaster relief mission.

Fair call , will be interesting to see if the other helicopter is more "Utility" than "Training" , hopefully this is the case, as a twin turbine aircraft is fairly expensive to operate for basic helicopter training purposes. Hopefully the basic training will be handled by a civilian contracter and the RNZAF training is more in relation to things like formation flying and tactical training.

 

[Whiskyjack]

Fair call , will be interesting to see if the other helicopter is more "Utility" than "Training" , hopefully this is the case, as a twin turbine aircraft is fairly expensive to operate for basic helicopter training purposes. Hopefully the basic training will be handled by a civilian contracter and the RNZAF training is more in relation to things like formation flying and tactical training.

My understanding is that a larger twin is required so that a pilot can be better prepared for the larger NH90. But am happy to be corrected by someone more knowledgeable on the issue.

 

[KH-12]

My understanding is that a larger twin is required so that a pilot can be better prepared for the larger NH90. But am happy to be corrected by someone more knowledgeable on the issue.

Indeed this is the case , prep for the SH-2G and NH90 re: multiengine handling etc, still no reason why the very early stages of helicopter training need to be maintained "in-house", get the trainees to go through to solo stage with a civilian training organisation then transition to the LUH for advanced training , bit like the CT4E - Beechcraft - (C130/P3K/B757) route.

 

[Whiskyjack]

Indeed this is the case , prep for the SH-2G and NH90 re: multiengine handling etc, still no reason why the very early stages of helicopter training need to be maintained "in-house", get the trainees to go through to solo stage with a civilian training organisation then transition to the LUH for advanced training , bit like the CT4E - Beechcraft - (C130/P3K/B757) route.

I don't disagree, and that may actually be the way they are headed, I am not really up with the play here.