NZDF - Now and the Future.

[Markus40]

I am almost 80% sure that the LOH replacement of the Sioux will be a non military option. That means that they will have no military applications other than search and rescue and ambulance applications.

Since the LUHs are so much cheaper, buy the minimum of 8 NH90s and buy more EC-135s than planned. At least the EC-135s are useful, they are capable of some trooplift, and training. Use the Seasprites for search and rescue missions.

If you can't afford 10 NH90s and 8 EC-135s, surely it would be better on the budget to buy 8 NH90s and 10-12 EC-135s.

 

[KH-12]

I am almost 80% sure that the LOH replacement of the Sioux will be a non military option. That means that they will have no military applications other than search and rescue and ambulance applications.

In that case you would be better off going with the larger EC145 rather than the EC135/EC635 option, assuming the deal will be all Eurocopter, it would be pretty hard to justify a 10 helicopter training fleet for 8 operational NH90's !

 

[Lucasnz]

In that case you would be better off going with the larger EC145 rather than the EC135/EC635 option, assuming the deal will be all Eurocopter, it would be pretty hard to justify a 10 helicopter training fleet for 8 operational NH90's !

I seem to recall that the B-47G use to carry Forward Observer Duties in there early days (orginally NZ had about 14), when the army flew them. It might be role they pick up again.

 

[Whiskyjack]

I seem to recall that the B-47G use to carry Forward Observer Duties in there early days (orginally NZ had about 14), when the army flew them. It might be role they pick up again.

Unfortunately I see an issue with going for a larger LUH......it means that a case can be made against purchasing the NH90! The training helo would have to be a twin with advanced cockpit to provide commonality with the NH90. It may be that 8 NH90s and 6 LUHs with an option for more LUHs might be an option.

 

[Markus40]

Yes, i would have to agree that this negates the role of the NH90, as the principle Helicopter. I think its a nice dream to imagine that the government purchase a military version of the LUH as a supplement to the NH90, when i would be of the opinion that the government will be seeking a military/civilian role for the LOH.

As mentioned i firmly believe that its a better idea to drop the LOH and purchase a few more NH90s.

Unfortunately I see an issue with going for a larger LUH......it means that a case can be made against purchasing the NH90! The training helo would have to be a twin with advanced cockpit to provide commonality with the NH90. It may be that 8 NH90s and 6 LUHs with an option for more LUHs might be an option.

 

[KH-12]

I doubt that the price differential between the EC135 / EC145 is that significant and you might as well get something that has a decent usable payload, it seems that the NH90's will happen (I am sure there has been more than abit of Australian pressure in this) and part of the specified role for the LUH is for Helicopter crewman training so it should have a reasonable utility function.

 

[Markus40]

Question: Why cant all the helicopter training be done on the NH90?

If we bought more of the NH90 it would seem plausible to operate more of the same type than 2 types.

I doubt that the price differential between the EC135 / EC145 is that significant and you might as well get something that has a decent usable payload, it seems that the NH90's will happen (I am sure there has been more than abit of Australian pressure in this) and part of the specified role for the LUH is for Helicopter crewman training so it should have a reasonable utility function.

 

[KH-12]

Question: Why cant all the helicopter training be done on the NH90?

If we bought more of the NH90 it would seem plausible to operate more of the same type than 2 types.

Too expensive, I would hate to think what the hourly operating cost will be for the NH90 but I bet it will be significant, plus there will probably be a maximum allocated flying hours per annum which you would not want to consume in the training process, I would imagine that only type conversion would take place on the NH90 (may even be a simulator in the deal), with so few assets you don't want to lose them to the training process.

I think part of the problem with the current set-up is that the UH-1H are doing more training than intended as the Sqouix are'nt really up to it.

There have been quite a few Squoix lost over the years in training accidents, not sure you could afford that level of attrition in an aircraft as expensive as the NH90. It's one thing to write off a $5M aircraft quitye another to losing a $50M aircraft

 

[Whiskyjack]

Lets remember that the cost of 10 LUH (basic) would probably cover the cost of ONE NH90!! The Aussies are paying close to AUS$60m each! So the RNZAF still needs a training helo of some description that will teach pilots.

 

[Markus40]

Okay, so why couldnt the NZDF recruit a current civilian helicopter training school to put through their military personel to operate the NH90?

This option will still free up more funds for several more NH90s.

Lets remember that the cost of 10 LUH (basic) would probably cover the cost of ONE NH90!! The Aussies are paying close to AUS$60m each! So the RNZAF still needs a training helo of some description that will teach pilots.

 

[Whiskyjack]

Okay, so why couldnt the NZDF recruit a current civilian helicopter training school to put through their military personel to operate the NH90?

This option will still free up more funds for several more NH90s.

I sort of disagree there. Yes I think flight privatised flight training is a good idea to explore (in conjunction with Aussie).

However I think that the 10 LUH we are talking about might scratch to get the NZDF 1.5 extra NH90s (lets be generous and say 10 all up.

I think on the NZDF has a need for an LUH. For many roles the NH90 will be overkill, an will be basic civil SAR, but even in the military role delivering mail and replacements to outposts or medi vac. So 8-10 LUH would definitely be my preference, even if it means only 8 NH90s

 

[RubiconNZ]

10 LUH 8 NHR90's

If that was the final number with no LUH tied up for intial Pilot training that would be a great in capability compared to the 16 Siouxs + -, and the 14 Iroquois, if they arrived at that it would be a good result not great but it still increases the lift capability by what around 75 percent?

 

[Markus40]

If the LUH is just for pilot training im of the mind that its not needed, and the civilian contract with a helicopter company would still be advantageous. On the other hand i also think that a small number for medivac and search and rescue duties and police counter terrorism duties (depending on the type) would be good as a replacement for the Sioux.

I sort of disagree there. Yes I think flight privatised flight training is a good idea to explore (in conjunction with Aussie).

However I think that the 10 LUH we are talking about might scratch to get the NZDF 1.5 extra NH90s (lets be generous and say 10 all up.

I think on the NZDF has a need for an LUH. For many roles the NH90 will be overkill, an will be basic civil SAR, but even in the military role delivering mail and replacements to outposts or medi vac. So 8-10 LUH would definitely be my preference, even if it means only 8 NH90s

 

[EnigmaNZ]

Personality I would like to see a AS 550C-2 buy, equiped with a roof mounted sight and armed with GIAT 20mm cannon pods, unguided rockets and Hughes HeliTOW anti-tank guided missiles, operating in the armed scout/observation role, when needed. The AF looked at the Singaporean ones but apparently the maintenance logs weren't reliable, so turned them down. But new wouldn't be more than $57-100M for say 8.

 

[KH-12]

Are we not better off going with the EC635 if you are after an offensive capability, as it has a better cabin size and is a more modern design. I don't think that an offensive role is in mind for the LUH currently.

 

[Whiskyjack]

I am sure I have seen the role of the LUH defined as training and liason, I will have a hunt around and see.

 

[Whiskyjack]

Taken from the MoD website:

"A Invitation to Register (ITR) to meet the training and potential light utility capability requirements was issued on 18 June 2005 and closed on 25 July 2005"

So they want it if they can get it, in other words. Interesting that they have almost had a year.

 

[Markus40]

The NH90 was taking too long as well from the government to select, and from what i understand that the government were waiting to see what the NZD would be doing in order to make the right purchase at the right time. I understand that the company making the NH90 also requested this government to start making up its mind.

Taken from the MoD website:

"A Invitation to Register (ITR) to meet the training and potential light utility capability requirements was issued on 18 June 2005 and closed on 25 July 2005"

So they want it if they can get it, in other words. Interesting that they have almost had a year.

 

[Markus40]

I might be wrong but I would be very surprised to see this government select an LUH with offensive capabilities when what they are looking at is an LUH for pilot training and medivac roles. Similar to the Sioux arranagents. I believe that the LOH or LUH could be used for counter terrorism roles and police duties should that arise.

To me i would suggest not holding your breath for any offensive roles for a LUH other than what has been mentioned.

Are we not better off going with the EC635 if you are after an offensive capability, as it has a better cabin size and is a more modern design. I don't think that an offensive role is in mind for the LUH currently.

 

[Whiskyjack]

I might be wrong but I would be very surprised to see this government select an LUH with offensive capabilities when what they are looking at is an LUH for pilot training and medivac roles. Similar to the Sioux arranagents. I believe that the LOH or LUH could be used for counter terrorism roles and police duties should that arise.

To me i would suggest not holding your breath for any offensive roles for a LUH other than what has been mentioned.

I agree, SAR, Liaison, Training, Spec Ops etc....if the RNZAF get the numbers to make that practical.