NZDF - Now and the Future.

[mug]

When you say that it'll cost another $100 million, is that a figure that the Government has agreed to commit to, or is it a figure that could potentially end up being deducted from the current available budget of $550 million?

8 NH90s and 10 or so EC635s would be a nice little addition down at Ohakea.

 

[Whiskyjack]

Thats alot of money ($A60M) per airframe (although I would imagine that would include a big logistics component), I understood that the Aussie NH90's where to be very highly spec'd and naval compatible, I can't imagine NZ asking for the same config (similar to the Seasprite situation), The RNZAF did operate 13 Sioux at one stage so it would make sense to beef up the total numbers with the LUH component, especially if we can only scrape up enough $ to buy 8 NH90, at that price it is nearly up with the Merlin !

I tend to agree, if ours are to come stock standard from the Euro production line then I would expect them to be 10% cheaper once the costs of production are factored in. Logistics should tie up with Aus to a large extent with common spare pool etc..(not sure what engine NZ will get).

Which means that NZ$150m is left if the MoD is now saying the cost will be NZ$650m.

Comments?

 

[Markus40]

I dear say that the NZ governemnt will be watching their pennies fairly closly over the Heli deal. I would say that the EC635 will not be an option as a sioux replacement if the price tag exceeds over $550 million.

 

[KH-12]

JUst found this link which would tend to confirm the number of NH90 at 8 airframes (vanilla versions, no chocolate topping !)

http://www.flightglobal.com/Article.../206959/NZ+NH90+deal+to+progress+at+last.html

Apart from the EC635/135 I am not sure there is much else out there that would satisfy the RNZAF requirement and I think it would be unlikely to split suppliers for the 2 types more than likely to par back the LUH order a bit, although they are not the high cost item, the gold plated NH90 is :

 

[Markus40]

I noticed a good military option for the replacement for the Sioux would be a the A109 LUH, depending on the price tag. Has many functions and would be a great asset to our ground units in the field with TOW weapons.

 

[Aussie Digger]

I noticed a good military option for the replacement for the Sioux would be a the A109 LUH, depending on the price tag. Has many functions and would be a great asset to our ground units in the field with TOW weapons.

They are a lovely bird and would perform well for NZ, but they are too expensive for a training helo and probably too big. South Africa intends to use A109's as it's primary troop transport helo (supported by larger helo's though, admittedly).

Eurocopter EC-635's can also carry weapons (including TOW missiles) and aerial recon suites, but even it appears too expensive for NZ and it's far smaller and cheaper than the A109.

Cheers.

 

[KH-12]

The A109 / AW139 would have been quite a good pairing , The A109 certainly looks nice if a bit delicate, I'm sure EADS will make a good deal to wrap up a joint NH90/EC635 solution.

 

[KH-12]

With the high probability that only 8 NH90 will be purchased is it realistic to expect that in any deployment that the MRV (HMNZS Canterbury) would depart with 4 NH90 or is it more likely to go with say 2 NH90 and 2 LUH (would it be possible to go with a 2 + 3 mix as well given the smaller size of the LUH ?)

 

[Sea Toby]

It would be best to airlift the EC-135s via Hercules transports, and ship the NH90s on the MRV. But you are correct, the MRV could carry some of each. It all depends on the mission, and how New Zealand's armed forces pack the ship. The army is gonna want to stock as much of its equipment it can onboard the ship. With a humanitarian mission the lift capacity of the NH90s is greater, the EC-135s wouldn't be needed as much.

 

[Markus40]

Yeah, im not so sure. It really depends on how many and what type of LUH this government selects and if this government wishes to have the LUH as an option to work alongside the NH-90. 8 NH-90s is rather on the thin side, if NZ wishes to deploy them. This is in light of across the board functions in support of other operations like Search and Rescue and Training and other standby duties in NZ. Not to mention that 1-2 will be under maintenance repair i would suggest, at any given time.

If the government selects the LUH with military applications then i think this is okay as we are able to mix the two operational abilities together and a better number of helicopters can then be deployed, but its going to hinge on what numbers and abilities this next LUH will be able to do.

I would like to think the military do get a good military version of the LUH to use in forward operations, but i am sceptical as this government has taken the "peace keeping" option for our defense forces and so we will end up with a "shark with no teeth" option.

 

[Markus40]

I actually think the number could be less than 4 NH-90s if deployed. So i agree its unrealistic to send more than 4 away at any given time on deployment. UNLESS, we have a good contingent of LUHs like 4-5 with military applications and can assist our troops in the field or humanitarian duties if so required. Its up to how many Lohs or LUHs the government will select.

The Seasprite could fill a role but i think unlikely on a 24/7 basis.

With the high probability that only 8 NH90 will be purchased is it realistic to expect that in any deployment that the MRV (HMNZS Canterbury) would depart with 4 NH90 or is it more likely to go with say 2 NH90 and 2 LUH (would it be possible to go with a 2 + 3 mix as well given the smaller size of the LUH ?)

 

[Lucasnz]

With the high probability that only 8 NH90 will be purchased is it realistic to expect that in any deployment that the MRV (HMNZS Canterbury) would depart with 4 NH90 or is it more likely to go with say 2 NH90 and 2 LUH (would it be possible to go with a 2 + 3 mix as well given the smaller size of the LUH ?)

The MRV capability is for 1 SH-2G and 4 NH90. My understanding is that the NH90 are built marinised.

To deploy and operate off the MRV you would need to buy a helicopter capable of operate in a maritime enivornment, which increases the cost. So I don't think given the cash crunch that option will work. Basically you're heading into a Lynx type situation.

 

[cherry]

I know of someone who will be selling 35 Blackhawk helos over the next few years. Would NZ be interested in a few of these instead of a newbuild NH-90?

 

[KH-12]

The MRV capability is for 1 SH-2G and 4 NH90. My understanding is that the NH90 are built marinised.

To deploy and operate off the MRV you would need to buy a helicopter capable of operate in a maritime enivornment, which increases the cost. So I don't think given the cash crunch that option will work. Basically you're heading into a Lynx type situation.

I thought that the NH90's where to be off the shelf TTH versions (I think the Australian MRH90 might be a bit different) I think that for the purposes of offloading troops and supplies off the MRV no specific mods would be required (after all the US Marines operate AH-1's off their Wasp class vessels). The Seaprites are configured to operate in a range of sea states that you would not try and deploy an NH90 / LUH in, I suspect they would only be flown off in calm sea state conditions.

 

[Sea Toby]

I don't think the New Zealand government wants to spend precious dollars on used equipment with half of their operational lives already consumed. Its not as if New Zealand is buying large numbers. Australia has purchased 46 NH90s, more than likely in the future another dozen or more, whereas New Zealand appears to be buying only 8. Their limited defence budget only stretches so far.

Being from America I'm used to driving by Air Force and Navy bases with 50 or more aircraft, whether bombers, tankers, fighters, transport planes and/or helicopters sitting on the tarmac. One Wasp class LHD has more aircraft on the flight deck than the entire New Zealand air force has in its inventory.

 

[Padman]

The Seaprites are configured to operate in a range of sea states that you would not try and deploy an NH90 / LUH in, I suspect they would only be flown off in calm sea state conditions.

I would have thought that the NH-90 would be able to operate in similar sea states to the Seasprite, after all it is used by a number of Nato countries as a naval helicopter. Has the TTH version lost some of the capability of the NFH version with regards to operability in high sea states?

 

[KH-12]

Maybe the NH90 would be OK (depending on pilot experience) however a skid equiped LUH would'nt be the best to be trying to land on a pitching deck with a distinct possibility of incurring some impact related damage. I think there is some difference with regard corrosion protection between the 2 main NH90 versions, although alot of the structure is composite anyway.

 

[Markus40]

With the Australians selling their Blackhawks, New Zealand could gain from purchasing this type. It might be a bit late now with the purchase of the new NH90, but we may have been able to purchase more numbers of Blackhawks, without blowing the budget allocated to the Helicopter purchase.

The blackhawk can operate from a MRV and would be able to operate in most sea states as the sea sprite.

 

[Cootamundra]

Why purchase Blackhawks when Aus is getting rid of theirs? The MRH-90 will fly more often with less maintenance. Plus by sticking with the NH-90 you get greater payload and commonality with the ADF.

 

[Markus40]

The MRV will need a mix of the SH-2G and NH90 to work. The NH90 is designed to operate off the MRV for troop lift and supply lift to the forces on the ground. The SH-2G will be used fairly much as the same but will have an offensive capability to keep the MRV protected.

The government has allowed the MRV to operate with at least 4 NH90s to operate from it.

The MRV capability is for 1 SH-2G and 4 NH90. My understanding is that the NH90 are built marinised.

To deploy and operate off the MRV you would need to buy a helicopter capable of operate in a maritime enivornment, which increases the cost. So I don't think given the cash crunch that option will work. Basically you're heading into a Lynx type situation.