NZDF - Now and the Future.

[Markus40]

Have to see. The National Party Policy would certainly come close to a proposal like this.

Not during this administration.

 

[KH-12]

I would have to differ on your points of issue regarding the EC135. First the EC135 is too big and not as agile at low level. The NH90 in the same way.

Recon roles can be carried out by the NH90 quite easily thus wont need the EC135s as an alternative.

The EC635 is a very agile helicopter more so than a large NH90 and it has a very respectable top speed of 150kts additionally it can haul 6 troops. The NH90 is too big and expensive an asset to use in the recon role, you are better clearing out of a situation than trying to fight it out with door mounted guns.

 

[Whiskyjack]

I would have to differ on your points of issue regarding the EC135. First the EC135 is too big and not as agile at low level. The NH90 in the same way.

Can I ask how you come up with this statement?

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/ec_635/specs.html
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/nh90/specs.html

The NH90 is almost 4 times Heavier!!!!

Also this:

"The EC 635 is Eurocopter's powerful lightweight twin-engine army helicopter for air-to-air combat and ground support. It is also used as a utility helicopter and for training, search and rescue and combat search and rescue"

8 is a restricted number and how would the EC135 be used in fire suppresion role while ferrying troops.? Like the NH90.?

It wouldn't the EC635 would be in fire support role while supporting the NH90 carrying troops.

Sure the military version is designed to carry the weopons but the NH90 would be able to operate doing the same role. Maybe with some modifications.

Why? The EC635 is cheaper and designed for the role, the NH90 is not, I don't think any Defence force sees using their NH90s operating in this role, they are a transport helo, and a maritime helo.

Recon roles can be carried out by the NH90 quite easily thus wont need the EC135s as an alternative.

Again I disagree, they NZDF needs the NH90 to lift troops, and a LUH to provide training, liasion, recon, SAR, fire support. They are much cheaper and would suppliment the NH90.

 

[KH-12]

NZDF will only have 8 (or even less if you saw the news last night)

Is there some news on the NH90 purchase that you could share with us ?

 

[Whiskyjack]

Is there some news on the NH90 purchase that you could share with us ?

Check out thread NH90??? in aviation section.

Cheers

 

[mug]

Off topic, but still NZDF related (from nzherald.co.nz):

Goff signals a cautious review of SAS secrecy

Friday June 16, 2006

The Government is considering partly lifting the veil of secrecy that surrounds its Special Air Service (SAS) troops.

The Government gives little information about SAS operations - fearing details could help enemies identify members of the elite force and jeopardise their secret operations.

That secrecy came under attack in recent years when the Government refused to detail the activities of SAS troops in Afghanistan - until US authorities released the information.

But Defence Minister Phil Goff yesterday signalled in Parliament he was moving to look at what additional information could be released about the SAS without endangering its soldiers.

"I think by and large what they have been doing New Zealanders would be overwhelmingly proud about," he said.

- NZPA

Although I can see Keith Locke getting in even more of a flap about them, I imagine such a move would do good things for recruitment as a whole. Either that or there's some unseen political angle to it all.

 

[Whiskyjack]

Off topic, but still NZDF related (from nzherald.co.nz):



Although I can see Keith Locke getting in even more of a flap about them, I imagine such a move would do good things for recruitment as a whole. Either that or there's some unseen political angle to it all.

IMO, you can still maintain secrecy but let the public you are engaged in operations.

Something similar to what Australia does.

 

[Markus40]

Sorry, I agree the Ec135 is lighter but its limited in task due to it being too light . The NZDF needs a medium weight helicopter to cover all its needs. The EC135 is pretty limited, although has some versatility. Maybe a good choice for our light trainer option, but certainly not for our replacement of the Uriqouis.

Second, the NH90 has many variants and can be tasked to carry troops to anti submarine work. It is kitted with a mission control computer that can cover a range of tasks that the NZDF could certainly make use of. From the information i have read the NH90 can be fitted with external weapons if needed for ground suppression to some degree.

Again the EC135 is a good replacement for the Sioux helicopter.

Can I ask how you come up with this statement?

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/ec_635/specs.html
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/nh90/specs.html

The NH90 is almost 4 times Heavier!!!!

Also this:

"The EC 635 is Eurocopter's powerful lightweight twin-engine army helicopter for air-to-air combat and ground support. It is also used as a utility helicopter and for training, search and rescue and combat search and rescue"





It wouldn't the EC635 would be in fire support role while supporting the NH90 carrying troops.



Why? The EC635 is cheaper and designed for the role, the NH90 is not, I don't think any Defence force sees using their NH90s operating in this role, they are a transport helo, and a maritime helo.



Again I disagree, they NZDF needs the NH90 to lift troops, and a LUH to provide training, liasion, recon, SAR, fire support. They are much cheaper and would suppliment the NH90.

 

[Whiskyjack]

Sorry, I agree the Ec135 is lighter but its limited in task due to it being too light . The NZDF needs a medium weight helicopter to cover all its needs. The EC135 is pretty limited, although has some versatility. Maybe a good choice for our light trainer option, but certainly not for our replacement of the Uriqouis.

Second, the NH90 has many variants and can be tasked to carry troops to anti submarine work. It is kitted with a mission control computer that can cover a range of tasks that the NZDF could certainly make use of. From the information i have read the NH90 can be fitted with external weapons if needed for ground suppression to some degree.

Again the EC135 is a good replacement for the Sioux helicopter.

I agree I think that the NH90 is what is required for troop lift, and if the money was available I would live to see the Seasprites replaced by the naval NH90.

Although I would be dreaming if that ever happened!

The EC635 would complement the NH90 by carrying out the following roles:

• Training
• SAR
• Medivac
• Liaison
• Recon
• Limited fire support
• Spec Ops

But it needs to be purchased in numbers to do this, which is possible considering its relatively low cost.

While I have no doubt that external weapons could be carried by the transport version I don't think it practical in a land fire support role as it is a valuable helo that would need to be tasked for troop/equipment lift.

As it has not be designed for this role I think the NZDF would be very reluctant to go down that road.

 

[KH-12]

I think the EC635 would be an ideal machine for the civilian SAR role that the UH-1H currently undertakes from time to time, an NH-90 would be overkill, I believe that the Sqoiux has been relegated to the training role only for many years now, initially it acted in the Observation / Liason role but was withdrawn as attrition took its toll , a decent EC635 force will be able to add a new dimension to how the RNZAF operates its helicopter assets, would be an ideal machine for deploying small SAS teams (as long as they have some kind of NVS)

I have never seen any mention of using the chosen LUH aircraft in any kind of offensive fire support role.

 

[Whiskyjack]

I have never seen any mention of using the chosen LUH aircraft in any kind of offensive fire support role.

I am just being optomistic...

 

[KH-12]

I am just being optomistic...

I suppose it is always an option to revisit how the aircraft is used once some operational experience is gained with it. The EC635's with the smaller rotor and fenestron are much quieter than the UH-1H so should be useful in situations where a degree of stealth is required.

 

[Markus40]

Do you have any cost figures for the EC135?

I am just being optomistic...

 

[RubiconNZ]

Price

Best I could find was 2.5 Million US thats in '96 I believe....

A key target, he said, was a base price of no more than $2 million, to keep the 427 under the cost of its main competition–the $2.5 million Eurocopter EC 135, the $3.6 million Boeing MD 902 and the $3 million Agusta A109P. (See table, "Bell 427 Performance Targets and Status."

http://www.ainonline.com/Features/Pilotreports2000/AIN_pr_bell427.html


Seems it could be a relatively cheap option though thats is of course an older cost gives a ball park figure to work from.

 

[Whiskyjack]

Best I could find was 2.5 Million US thats in '96 I believe....

A key target, he said, was a base price of no more than $2 million, to keep the 427 under the cost of its main competition–the $2.5 million Eurocopter EC 135, the $3.6 million Boeing MD 902 and the $3 million Agusta A109P. (See table, "Bell 427 Performance Targets and Status."

http://www.ainonline.com/Features/Pilotreports2000/AIN_pr_bell427.html


Seems it could be a relatively cheap option though thats is of course an older cost gives a ball park figure to work from.

I have found a reference (which says it comes from Jane's, but I can't substantiate that.) to the EC 635 costing US$4.2, lets be generous and say with spares, training etc it goes up to US$6m, which is around NZ$10m each. So 10 would be NZ$100.

The news says that the NH90 buy will cost and extra NZ$100m, which will put total cost around NZ$650m. So that leaves NZ$550m or around 270 Euro, which would be 33.5m euro per NH90. Which would be about right I think, it may actually be on the light side when spares and training are included.

 

[KH-12]

Sounds about right, the EC135 is going for around $3.5 US at the moment although you would expect a pretty good deal for a 10 aircraft purchase, might get that down to about $8M NZ per aircraft (EC635) with a degree of conservatisim around the spares inventory.

 

[Markus40]

The governemnt has allocated $550 Million NZD to the Chopper replacement however does this include the cost of both the trainer chopper and the Uriquois replacement as well?

 

[KH-12]

Yes that amount is the combined project allowance (UH-1H and Sqoiux replacement), so if all the money is spent with one manufacturer it represents a fairly significant purchase, I suspect the time taken is to try and wrap up a nice package deal, I guess the government did'nt have any FX cover

 

[Whiskyjack]

Yes that amount is the combined project allowance (UH-1H and Sqoiux replacement), so if all the money is spent with one manufacturer it represents a fairly significant purchase, I suspect the time taken is to try and wrap up a nice package deal, I guess the government did'nt have any FX cover

Aussie has just announced the purchase of another 34 MRH90s (bringing their total to 46). This will cost AUS$2b, divide by 34, add exchange rate (Aus to NZ) and the price for 8 is around NZ$550m! So an extra NZ$100 would be for LUH alone, which would tie up to my earlier post.

So they must be looking at around 10-12 LUH.

 

[KH-12]

Aussie has just announced the purchase of another 34 MRH90s (bringing their total to 46). This will cost AUS$2b, divide by 34, add exchange rate (Aus to NZ) and the price for 8 is around NZ$550m! So an extra NZ$100 would be for LUH alone, which would tie up to my earlier post.

So they must be looking at around 10-12 LUH.

Thats alot of money ($A60M) per airframe (although I would imagine that would include a big logistics component), I understood that the Aussie NH90's where to be very highly spec'd and naval compatible, I can't imagine NZ asking for the same config (similar to the Seasprite situation), The RNZAF did operate 13 Sioux at one stage so it would make sense to beef up the total numbers with the LUH component, especially if we can only scrape up enough $ to buy 8 NH90, at that price it is nearly up with the Merlin !